You asked if Islam tolerates criticism of the faith?
Will Christians, those who believe in their faith, have tolerance for anyone who ridicules Jesus (AS). Would Jews, those who believe, have tolerance for anyone who criticizes Moses (AS). No, they won't. Naturally, they won't. It's because they have love for these Prophets. You staunchly adhere to your belief system of secular humanism, would you 'tolerate' it if someone criticized you? And is it unreasonable for you to become more and more angry if the criticism you receive becomes harsher and harsher? No, it isn't.
What is worse than criticism is killing. The Prophet SAWS forgave people who made attempts to kill him. He was criticized and scorned by his own uncle. He showed tolerance.
So, bella....if you wanna know if Islam persecutes people for criticising Islam, then look for the answer in the seerah. We are lesser human beings than the Prophet SAWS...we don't have the discipline to even pray our namaz, nor to control our egos and practice sabar. Look to the Prophet SAWS for the answer to your question because it him that we are supposed to follow and emulate. The answer to your question carries greater validity when you look at how the leader led his life because that is set as the standard.....not the followers. The former is a stronger indication.
You go to a company and you see a few employees that are slacking off and disorganized, basically they're not following the rules. Does this mean that the company advocates such chaos? No. Look at the handbook of the company that was created by the leader or founder. It contains the rules, the expectations, the standards, the way of life in this company. Some workers will follow the rules and expectations better than others. But if you want a better and clearer idea/answer as to whether this company advocates intolerance, disorganization etc etc.....ask the leader. If he's not there or if he's left the world......refer to the handbook, that tells you what is acceptable conduct and what isn't. *** Use the handbook to confirm whether or not what the workers are doing is acceptable. Don't use the workers to confirm the standards that were set; this is what you have been doing it seems.
If you use the followers' actions to form an overall opinion of the faith, then every faith will seem cruel to you...Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, ....Heck even the secularists.
Perhaps bella88 and some others here, see Muslims react in an emotional and sensitive way as confirmation to them of some sort of insecurities that Muslim hold. The presence of such insecurities may make them believe that Islam has deficiencies and hence bolsters their resolve against the belief system.
Arguing or debating Islam in person is more dynamic ... Many years ago I was not the right person to be debating Islam, but I did so ... I had more overt hypocritical aspects to my outlook ... my friends who were non-Muslim used to literally back down and state at the end ... "If Islam is so good and right, then why do you do x, y z?" ... and I couldn't answer.
I realise now that this protest of theirs was the last resort - it confirmed to them their own sense of hesitance. They didn't want to enslave themselves to an ideology that will constantly deny them certain pleasures and desires ... and they feared that if they really open up to the teachings - they will be convinced. It is the convincing nature of Islam that many opponents of Islam hate ... They hate it because it makes their error clear to them. So my friends would retort me - with my own deficiencies ... and I realised that I was not good enough to be giving dawah. I may have been able to take a conversation to a natural conclusion, but on the last hurdle their wild card was to use my outlook against me - It was powerful ... All I could say was - "Well I'm not a good example of a Muslim" ...
Many Muslims will not go to an in depth conversation about Islam partially because they feel that some of the lines of enquiry might expose their ignorance or make it seem to them (if they are not well versed in dialectic) that Islam is in some way controversial, or wrong.
Many Muslims are emotionally attached to the faith ... and will not be led down a path that forces them to view certain personages critically. This is seen by some non-Muslims as a weakness and sometimes the corruption in their hearts sees that as an opportunity to exploit that sentiment. This helps them in their own resolve against the faith - because they expose the Muslim rather than expose anything we believe in ... They can't grasp at anything to have a problem with the doctrine - that annoys them ... so they settle with having "a problem with how it is interpreted" ... It is a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There are some Muslims here who will indulge all of the questions that people like bella88 can pose ... But for such questions they need to be private and not public ... and they need to be asked one at a time with full resolve before moving to side topics ... if that is what they want ... If they want the TRUTH ... they can get it really easily inshaAllah ...
can't say better than this about the attitude we saw in recent threads.
can't say better than this about the attitude we saw in recent threads.
Psyah's post reminds me of a friend whose non-Muslim roommate opened the Quran and was taken aback...questioning if she had come upon the Truth. It had a strong impact one her. She didn't want to pursue learning about the faith or follow it and the reason she gave my friend for this was that she couldn't abandon drinking/her lifestyle.
can't say better than this about the attitude we saw in recent threads.
To add ... I would put yourself as the perfect candidate to answer such questions that some people raise because of your awareness and historical knowledge.
Is it soemthing new in the history? Muslims migrated to Ethpia and then to Medina. How do you see those who made them migrate?
Those who could not migrate and lived in Makka, hidden their Iman instead of directly coming to conflict with the majority.
I see those who made them migrate as intolerant. And in the present age, if someone "should opt for migration or other step" just because they opted for another religion, imposing such a requirement speaks poorly of the majority. What am I missing?
When I asked that question, I had not made it compulsory to answer. I said 'If you wish to share'. You people live in west, know the concepts of hate speech besides knowing freedom of expression. I thought people living in those societies use their right of freedom of expression with responsibility, but that thread proved me wrong. If I made a mistake by asking that question, you could avoid to make a mistake by coming a response which anyone can obviously anticipate considering the membership here.
Masjid dha de, Mandir dha de, dha de jo kucch dainda Par kisi da dil na dhain, Rab dilaan vich rehnda.
people from west are more vocal when some minority or its worship places are attacked. They should be vocal and everyone should be vocal about that. But I'm sorry to say when it comes to sensitive feelings of people (you are calling bigots), many people missed all the points. Can you say that you don't know that calling Muslim's Allah cruel and Islam a sexist religion will not attract the reaction you faced in that thread. You could easily skipped the question, if you had that bitter thoughts to share or you could have worded it in better way.
Here you will find many people who can accept anything against the religion and religious figures even calling Quran a fairy tale is allowed and does not require any action by admin (referring to your statement : this is the problem with this forum, there is absolutely no room for anyone to have a different view), but again there are members who feel for these things and raise voice against such things.
You open a thread asking why someone is not satisfied with their religion. What did you truly expect to accomplish by asking that question? So someone came forward responding to the question posed. And your out is "I did say if you want to share".
Sorry. This is extremely naive. Don't ask questions that are bound to elicit responses that may be uncomfortable. To say you didn't have to answer the question I posed is not taking responsibility.
Personally, I wouldn't speak disrespectfully of any religion. But asking a specific question, and laying the blame on someone who gives an honest answer. Come on.
I have personally seen Christian missionaries in Islamabad. Yes this was pre 911, the security situation of the region has changed during the past decade or so. Yes some people from Muslims have brought a bad name to the religion, but which religion does not have bigots? Rest assured the sane people from Muslims have always triumphed in the end, I am sure same would be the case this time too.
Came across Maududi’s name as a favorite religious author in GS Books. A comment was made about his views on what the scripture says about apostasy. The section in green font 3rd para from top captures it.
You open a thread asking why someone is not satisfied with their religion. What did you truly expect to accomplish by asking that question? So someone came forward responding to the question posed. And your out is "I did say if you want to share".
Sorry. This is extremely naive. Don't ask questions that are bound to elicit responses that may be uncomfortable. To say you didn't have to answer the question I posed is not taking responsibility.
Personally, I wouldn't speak disrespectfully of any religion. But asking a specific question, and laying the blame on someone who gives an honest answer. Come on.
Dear Sir
Question was are you satisfied with your religion. That means the religion you follow, not the religion you abandoned. Question was not why you abandon your previous religion? Isn't it.
bella came up with this response:
if secular humanism is a religion, then im 100% satisfied with it. i think not believing in any religion is pretty satisfying and i love the sense of freedom which comes with it. when i was a believer in a religion, i was never satisfied with it, none of it made any sense to me. for the last 4-5 years (since rejecting the faith i was born in), I am much more satisfied and content.
Her religion is not Islam. She claimed to follow humanity secularism as her religion. is it clear from the above post?
She herself added comments about her previous religion and I accept that I made a mistake to ask for the reason for dissatisfaction as I didn't accept a person following humanity as religion would be unaware of sensitivity of religious sentiments. You can call it naive of me, but I will call that attitude instigating to call someone's God as cruel and their religion as sexist.
I know you will not speak disrespectfully about any religion, but with all due respect your conduct in all these threads made some posters believe otherwise. May be they are as naive as myself.
I see those who made them migrate as intolerant. And in the present age, if someone "should opt for migration or other step" just because they opted for another religion, imposing such a requirement speaks poorly of the majority. What am I missing?
Its about not adjusting in a society. Migration is not a big deal in today's world. people do migrate for many reasons and if you are not comfortable with the law of land, then why not migrate?
keep hidden your views, till you find an appropriate forum for catharsis. Why opt for confrontation when you can save you by playing safe?
The biggest reason for migration is due to economic reasons.
Security reason are also one of the important factors to migrate. My point of view is to avoid confrontation. If you can afford to migrate, go ahead. Otherwise, just play safe by not hurting someone's religious sentiments.
Question was are you satisfied with your religion. That means the religion you follow, not the religion you abandoned. Question was not why you abandon your previous religion? Isn't it.
bella came up with this response:
Her religion is not Islam. She claimed to follow humanity secularism as her religion. is it clear from the above post?
She herself added comments about her previous religion and I accept that I made a mistake to ask for the reason for dissatisfaction as I didn't accept a person following humanity as religion would be unaware of sensitivity of religious sentiments. You can call it naive of me, but I will call that attitude instigating to call someone's God as cruel and their religion as sexist.
I know you will not speak disrespectfully about any religion, but with all due respect your conduct in all these threads made some posters believe otherwise. May be they are as naive as myself.
Will due respect bellas initial post did not call God cruel and sexist. You followed up her post with this post
"If you wish to share, may I ask what were those factors leading to dissatisfaction? Was it only 'Dos' and 'Do nots', as I could understand from your post hilighting freedom part.
You say none of the religion made sense to you, so does that mean who believe in religions are senseless? Sorry in advance, if the question is harsh. I'm not good at phrasing questions sometimes, but I just want to understand your point of view."
And when she gave an honest answer you shift the blame on her. Since you brought up the issue of my "conduct in all these threads" let me add this conduct of yours is not a shining example.
Everyone minus queer, bella, and southie;
(Yes its just you 3 crusaders)
I think they are different.
Southei/queer are not informed about the things. And not being provided chance to look at things in normal calm way, with all the context.
Bella, needs to let out venom. Only allah can put peace in her heart.
Its about not adjusting in a society. Migration is not a big deal in today's world. people do migrate for many reasons and if you are not comfortable with the law of land, then why not migrate?
keep hidden your views, till you find an appropriate forum for catharsis. Why opt for confrontation when you can save you by playing safe?
Thank you for making my point. That is exactly why laws of the land should not be made based on religion. Your recommendation to apostates was they migrate. And you add migration is not a big deal in today's world. Reasonable people would beg to differ. And I do. People SHOULD BE FREE TO choose their religion without having to migrate.
.let us agree to disagree on this one.
Will due respect bellas initial post did not call God cruel and sexist. You followed up her post with this post
"If you wish to share, may I ask what were those factors leading to dissatisfaction? Was it only 'Dos' and 'Do nots', as I could understand from your post hilighting freedom part.
You say none of the religion made sense to you, so does that mean who believe in religions are senseless? Sorry in advance, if the question is harsh. I'm not good at phrasing questions sometimes, but I just want to understand your point of view."
And when she gave an honest answer you shift the blame on her. Since you brought up the issue of my "conduct in all these threads" let me add this conduct of yours is not a shining example.
Thank you.
I have clarified that question was not making digs at other religions, it was about the religion you follow and bella is not following Islam any more, so she should have been careful to call Allah cruel and Islam sexist. She should have option for not replying or wording her opinion in better way. Her post was not liked by many people who got the title of bigots and you keep on hitting like button to show that you don't find any problem in her post. That makes people make assumptions about you attitude, when you are still claiming to be respectful towards all the religions.
When it comes to peace, sometimes bitter truths should be kept inside hearts. Because Truth is not an absolute term and there is no measure to call a response honest or dishonest.
Will due respect bellas initial post did not call God cruel and sexist. You followed up her post with this post
"If you wish to share, may I ask what were those factors leading to dissatisfaction? Was it only 'Dos' and 'Do nots', as I could understand from your post hilighting freedom part.
You say none of the religion made sense to you, so does that mean who believe in religions are senseless? Sorry in advance, if the question is harsh. I'm not good at phrasing questions sometimes, but I just want to understand your point of view."
And when she gave an honest answer you shift the blame on her. Since you brought up the issue of my "conduct in all these threads" let me add this conduct of yours is not a shining example.
Thank you.
Sothie: before it gets muddy again. i am going to make a quick attempt on you :D
I have never read or heard a book, who talks about such wide variety of things in such accurate manner.
One person acts in way, translate in to community, translate into some things else...get bigger and bigger.... and all that big circle expend over day... months year.. or decades.. or centuries.
Now who could tell exact dynamics of such a mechanism before its starts?? or how to correct it when it goes wrong... or even identifying it when it starts going wrong??
Now quran talks about it.... If you were looking for truth you would find it...
If you were looking to twist things.. you will find it as well.
if I remember correctly quran mentions (in my words) "with these same words people would be misguided"
Dude you have to find your own questions, your own answers. Its your journey.
Bella could do this, Mashallah 24/7.. 365 day a year..... perhaps till she get guidance....
Awesome endurance !!
