other religions being allowed to practice is not the same as allowing others to preach their religion to muslims. many scholars say it should not be allowed as per sharia for others to preach any other religion in a Muslim country. i remember watching dr zakir naiks response as being its not allowed because islam is the only truth so why should false religions be allowed to be preached?
from what I can see here, many things are considered fitna and not allowed. to me it does look like there is restriction on freedom and that prevents people from leaving religion and openly declaring their views.
Peace bella88
Not a single order will tolerate ideas to be spread that contradict the fabric of the society ... You cannot bring the example of Western countries as they allow the proliferation of religion in a secular setting ... Just imagine if I start a movement that should allow Shari'ah to be voted in to the UK ... I will be taken as a terrorist ... No in the UK we can practice our faith freely yes ... To a certain extent we can propagate too ... But we cannot and will not be allowed to enter in to the penal system and governance ... We will not be allowed to overrule interest and other Islamic issues ... We cannot go around offering alternatives to democracy.
Not a single order will tolerate ideas to be spread that contradict the fabric of the society ... You cannot bring the example of Western countries as they allow the proliferation of religion in a secular setting ... Just imagine if I start a movement that should allow Shari'ah to be voted in to the UK ... I will be taken as a terrorist ... No in the UK we can practice our faith freely yes ... To a certain extent we can propagate too ... But we cannot and will not be allowed to enter in to the penal system and governance ... We will not be allowed to overrule interest and other Islamic issues ... We cannot go around offering alternatives to democracy.
I don't know free someone would be in this regard. You can do your research on the degree of freedom and number if cases and legal system per Islamic country then.
So let's say that some people are jailed in a country for speaking against Islam or for leaving Islam. If you find no record of such treatment in the Sunnah by the most prominent figure that being the Prophet SAWS, which of the two would you give greater precedence in forming your overall opinion of the religion?
If you find more positive examples of Muslim rule and treatment of disbelievers throughout history than negative examples, which do you incline toward as being the true version of Islam? And is it right to view the overall faith as intolerant? I do believe that such views influence our perception and even interactions with people of that faith. Is it healthy? You say forget the past...so you use current examples of injustice to form an overall opinion then? But are there not many current positive examples of tolerance among Muslims?
To you he is the most beautiful person but not to me. There are many things which I dont like about him but i cannot post it here. I have read many hadith and books on the life of prophet and there are many things he did which i absolutely donot agree with. you didn't give me a clear cut answer here. just a simple yes or no, is there a punishment or there isn't? from your post, it seems that muslims have no tolerance when someone has anything negative to say about the prophet? please give short and to the point answers.
the bold part really points to the fact that there is no tolerance whatsoever, or am I misunderstanding this?? your reason is that court will gave a more humane punishment than the public?
That is because you don't know him (SAW) ... I have given the reasoning behind why there IS a punishment for character assassination of the Prophet (SAW) ... It is not too hard to work that out. If you write anything here yes it will get deleted ... Because people will be antagonised the ones who will delete it will be annoyed with you ... And the content ... Neither will they see it as true nor will they see any motive of yours as being legitimate ... You have made your decision and that is your loss ... Allah (SWT) has removed the light from you and all you see is darkness ... And RasoolAllah (SAW) is like a mirror ... You see in him what is your own state.
That is because you don't know him (SAW) ... I have given the reasoning behind why there IS a punishment for character assassination of the Prophet (SAW) ... It is not too hard to work that out. If you write anything here yes it will get deleted ... Because people will be antagonised the ones who will delete it will be annoyed with you ... And the content ... Neither will they see it as true nor will they see any motive of yours as being legitimate ... You have made your decision and that is your loss ... Allah (SWT) has removed the light from you and all you see is darkness ... And RasoolAllah (SAW) is like a mirror ... You see in him what is your own state.
i already got my answer from you psyah. You mentioned that there is indeed a punishment and thats the answer. thats exactly what I knew as well but no one here seems to be able to say it how it is. As far as me being in darkness, well thats your opinon and I am not going to tell you that you're wrong.
I do agree what you have written and hereby declare that I'll not waste my energy in such discussions any more. There is a debate to learn something regarding differing view and there is a debate which is based on pre-concieved ideas and already decided conclusions. unfortunately, all these debates on these forums, fall in second category. You don't like Islam, fine.. Its known to every one.. but please stop making every second thread running in same direction.
I openly asked a question 'are you satisfied with your religion?' That thread had to be closed because of this attitude. I had in my mind to discuss the matter about 'Qatl e Murtad', but I stopped seeing the respected mature posters here. BTW, I got my answer while listening to tafseer of Dr Israr (Surah e Baqra's 6 rukoo is the basis for such punishment. Its not specifically mentioned in Quran anywhere and its continuity of Shariat e Mooswi)
That is because you don't know him (SAW) ... I have given the reasoning behind why there IS a punishment for character assassination of the Prophet (SAW) ... It is not too hard to work that out. If you write anything here yes it will get deleted ... Because people will be antagonised the ones who will delete it will be annoyed with you ... And the content ... Neither will they see it as true nor will they see any motive of yours as being legitimate ... You have made your decision and that is your loss ... Allah (SWT) has removed the light from you and all you see is darkness ... **And RasoolAllah (SAW) is like a mirror ... You see in him what is your own state.
**
That's a powerful statement and in my experience I think it's true.
i already got my answer from you psyah. You mentioned that there is indeed a punishment and thats the answer. thats exactly what I knew as well but no one here seems to be able to say it how it is. As far as me being in darkness, well thats your opinon and I am not going to tell you that you're wrong.
Peace bella88
I didn't say you are in darkness ... I said "all you see is darkness" ... I hope you can study the life of Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) in a true academic capacity and you will find that many people who are not Muslim have praised him (SAW). The modern times has brought a very unusual form of slander in to the public stratosphere the likes of which we did not have before - slanders are lies and misconstructions ... It is better to learn about Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) yourself from the sources ... You are sure to see a very different picture. If you truly have a desire to seek out truth ... then you will be shown it ... I trust God enough for that with anyone.
Everyone minus queer, bella, and southie;
(Yes its just you 3 crusaders)
You guys need to stop arguing with this lot.
We all know about the misinterpretations of islam and the horrible acts that have occurred as a result. We condemn them and ask ourselves where it may have gone wrong for them.
Atrocities have been committed by every creed, race, culture, etc in the name of faith. Atrocities that do not represent the true teachings of their faith.
However as you all have noticed, like the media (maybe they believe everything they see) the three musketeers are focused solely on Islam.
You cannot change their views. Just by their responses its clear that they arent really listening to the points you are trying to make. They are content with discrediting Islam and giving each other pats on the back. It seems it would be more productive to try to heat cold tea in a cup by rubbing your hands against the cup and using friction.
Whenever they see on the news that some islamic nutters did something horrible, they will go on a bashing. No one seems to care about Palestine :(
did you see why that thread was locked? you asked me why i was not satisfied with Islam nd i gave my answer, but some intolerant bigots obviously had a problem with my views on islam and resorted to personal attacks. this is the problem with this forum, there is absolutely no room for anyone to have a different view. people need to stop being so overly sensitive, especially when they show no respect to other members themselves.
When I asked that question, I had not made it compulsory to answer. I said 'If you wish to share'. You people live in west, know the concepts of hate speech besides knowing freedom of expression. I thought people living in those societies use their right of freedom of expression with responsibility, but that thread proved me wrong. If I made a mistake by asking that question, you could avoid to make a mistake by coming a response which anyone can obviously anticipate considering the membership here.
Masjid dha de, Mandir dha de, dha de jo kucch dainda Par kisi da dil na dhain, Rab dilaan vich rehnda.
people from west are more vocal when some minority or its worship places are attacked. They should be vocal and everyone should be vocal about that. But I'm sorry to say when it comes to sensitive feelings of people (you are calling bigots), many people missed all the points. Can you say that you don't know that calling Muslim's Allah cruel and Islam a sexist religion will not attract the reaction you faced in that thread. You could easily skipped the question, if you had that bitter thoughts to share or you could have worded it in better way.
Here you will find many people who can accept anything against the religion and religious figures even calling Quran a fairy tale is allowed and does not require any action by admin (referring to your statement : this is the problem with this forum, there is absolutely no room for anyone to have a different view), but again there are members who feel for these things and raise voice against such things.
So, have we determined that you need a lethal injection or electrocution or prefer a mob for converting out of islam? The rest is just hearsay.
The thread was started and the OP did a scram ... Anyway ... Is that the version you want? Because it makes no difference for Muslims does it? I won't be in the position to exercise such things ... but if that is what you want, then there are plenty of people who will oblige ... just make sure you tell them loud and clear IF you decide to convert out of Islam ... if you have not already done so. :D
so its a fitna when someone tries to convert others out of islam? so one cannot share their critical views on religion in a muslim country? fair enough, but that clearly shows thats how religion is tightly enforced.
Its enforcement for Muslims, who opt to be called Muslims. Its not enforcement by compulsion. Its people's choice to accept Islam and follow its ruling. If they are not satisfied, they got other options. One has to observe the feelings and sensitivities of majority's religious sentiments (BTW Islam got references to care for others sensitivities as well). Why its a duty of a non-believer to deliver his / her differing views to the majority and that too in instigating way like you did in that 'are you satisfied with your religion' thread?
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if someone says something negative about my loved ones, i cannot physically attack them or order them to be sent to jail. so is there a punishment for someone who openly criticizes the prophet in a muslim country?
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Every person acts according to his belief. Persons actions are definitely dependent ho he perceive his affiliation with family, culture and religion (which is most sensitive in most of the cases). You can conduct a poll and ask people how would they react if some one call names to their family members.. Some people might say they will ignore it, but in reality this is not the case with majority. People do react on such things.
BTW, why there is dire need to attack someone's prophet and talk against them? Will that provide an accomplishment sense?
". In today's time, when we are Muslims by birth and not by choice, there could be an interpretation that a born Muslim may opt to change religion and , depending on the society he / she lives, they should opt for migration or other step. "
See this is problematic. And has nothing to do with scripture. They sound opt for migration? To me that is not a very healthy situation.
Is it soemthing new in the history? Muslims migrated to Ethpia and then to Medina. How do you see those who made them migrate?
Those who could not migrate and lived in Makka, hidden their Iman instead of directly coming to conflict with the majority.
other religions being allowed to practice is not the same as allowing others to preach their religion to muslims. many scholars say it should not be allowed as per sharia for others to preach any other religion in a Muslim country. i remember watching dr zakir naiks response as being its not allowed because islam is the only truth so why should false religions be allowed to be preached?
from what I can see here, many things are considered fitna and not allowed. to me it does look like there is restriction on freedom and that prevents people from leaving religion and openly declaring their views.
So what are christian missionaries doing in Thar and Gilgit?
To you he is the most beautiful person but not to me. There are many things which I dont like about him but i cannot post it here. I have read many hadith and books on the life of prophet and there are many things he did which i absolutely donot agree with. you didn't give me a clear cut answer here. just a simple yes or no, is there a punishment or there isn't? from your post, it seems that muslims have no tolerance when someone has anything negative to say about the prophet? please give short and to the point answers.
the bold part really points to the fact that there is no tolerance whatsoever, or am I misunderstanding this?? your reason is that court will gave a more humane punishment than the public?
Is the tolerance well defined. In most cases it crosses the limit of beghairti. sorry, but I'm short of vocabulary to express my opinion.
Perhaps bella88 and some others here, see Muslims react in an emotional and sensitive way as confirmation to them of some sort of insecurities that Muslim hold. The presence of such insecurities may make them believe that Islam has deficiencies and hence bolsters their resolve against the belief system.
Arguing or debating Islam in person is more dynamic ... Many years ago I was not the right person to be debating Islam, but I did so ... I had more overt hypocritical aspects to my outlook ... my friends who were non-Muslim used to literally back down and state at the end ... "If Islam is so good and right, then why do you do x, y z?" ... and I couldn't answer.
I realise now that this protest of theirs was the last resort - it confirmed to them their own sense of hesitance. They didn't want to enslave themselves to an ideology that will constantly deny them certain pleasures and desires ... and they feared that if they really open up to the teachings - they will be convinced. It is the convincing nature of Islam that many opponents of Islam hate ... They hate it because it makes their error clear to them. So my friends would retort me - with my own deficiencies ... and I realised that I was not good enough to be giving dawah. I may have been able to take a conversation to a natural conclusion, but on the last hurdle their wild card was to use my outlook against me - It was powerful ... All I could say was - "Well I'm not a good example of a Muslim" ...
Many Muslims will not go to an in depth conversation about Islam partially because they feel that some of the lines of enquiry might expose their ignorance or make it seem to them (if they are not well versed in dialectic) that Islam is in some way controversial, or wrong.
Many Muslims are emotionally attached to the faith ... and will not be led down a path that forces them to view certain personages critically. This is seen by some non-Muslims as a weakness and sometimes the corruption in their hearts sees that as an opportunity to exploit that sentiment. This helps them in their own resolve against the faith - because they expose the Muslim rather than expose anything we believe in ... They can't grasp at anything to have a problem with the doctrine - that annoys them ... so they settle with having "a problem with how it is interpreted" ... It is a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There are some Muslims here who will indulge all of the questions that people like bella88 can pose ... But for such questions they need to be private and not public ... and they need to be asked one at a time with full resolve before moving to side topics ... if that is what they want ... If they want the TRUTH ... they can get it really easily inshaAllah ...