The punishment of apostate

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

@redvelvet

It doesn't matter, Saleem. If someone wants total azaadi, they will have a problem with every single deterrent, even that of a warning from God. You can explain to this person until you're blue in the face the caveats in religion that show leniency and mercy, but they will only focus on the punishment. That will be the glaring point for them, everything else recedes into peripherals of their already biased minds. They want no consequences, no restrictions, no warnings, period. Simply put: it seems they believe that God has no authority over His creation, that is if they even believe in His existence.

RV, please stop talking on my behalf. its clear that you cannot read or able to understand even the simplest things.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Wow, this is becoming painfully embarrassing.

Bella, seriously, don't you see a pattern in your posts? You don't post to have a discussion in these kind of threads. You take part in such discussions to provoke, to elicit certain responses to prove your right, to brag (yes that is what you do) about your lifestyle in order to evoke responses, and when you finally get a reaction (which most of the time is a decent and mild one) you fall into defense mode and victim mode, saying: see, you are intolerant and bigoted.

why shouldn't i post my views? why is it that any time i start a thread, intolerant bigots start making attacks and the thread gets locked . i dont provoke anyone yet it seems like people get overly sensitive over things, yet show no sensitivity or respect to those with different belief.

[quote]
You will be one of the first ones to insult and when you get it back you totally forget that the other response was a reaction to your similar kind of response.
[/quote]
strange how you dont see RV starting with the insult..

[quote]
You call yourself open-minded and tolerant, but your posts are not a reflection of tolerance and open-mindedness at all. You do exactly what you accuse others of. Stop thinking that only your words are the truth, because that is how you come off as.
The other posters show much more respect in their posts, despite their different point of view. Sorry, can't say the same about you. As soon as somebody challenges you, you will call them a liar and start acting childish.

[/quote]

are you serious? please show me where RV showed respect. she started calling me 'aqal ki andhi' in her previous post and even before that she was extremely rude. i was only giving her the taste of her own medicine. and yes, RV has repeatedly lied

[quote]
Can't you see? Nobody cares at all what lifestyle you follow. Instead it is you who keeps mentioning it randomly, as if you want to prove how awesome you are. If a religious person does that then he is arrogant and shoves it into other people's throats.

You want to live a certain way, good for you. But learn to debate in an adult way instead of resorting to cheap tacticts.
[/quote]

if you dont care, dont bother posting then. i will post my questions and views. and no i dont mention things randomly, im not the one who started this thread. strange how you are unable to see all the personal attacks made by RV first.. but i guess in your book its okay to attack someone because they are not following your religion.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

That is OK Le. Very few people's have touched me like bella ' s posts have. I say this without reservations. There is humanity, empathy and honesty in her posts. So yes, when I read her posts, she echos my sentiments.

I won't want to argue with you.

but they wont see it. all they see is a non-muslim posting so its automatically considered evil. this is the pattern here. and its perfectly okay to attack someone with different belief, yet if they say anything back, they are the ones who get reported. you can insult western lifestyle, atheism, secular system, feminism, but if you say one critical thing about islam, you are the most evil person here and everyone will gang up on you. funny enough, they wont answer the genuine questions, but will beat around the bush and just call you an evil.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

I do agree what you have written and hereby declare that I'll not waste my energy in such discussions any more. There is a debate to learn something regarding differing view and there is a debate which is based on pre-concieved ideas and already decided conclusions. unfortunately, all these debates on these forums, fall in second category. You don't like Islam, fine.. Its known to every one.. but please stop making every second thread running in same direction.

I openly asked a question 'are you satisfied with your religion?' That thread had to be closed because of this attitude. I had in my mind to discuss the matter about 'Qatl e Murtad', but I stopped seeing the respected mature posters here. BTW, I got my answer while listening to tafseer of Dr Israr (Surah e Baqra's 6 rukoo is the basis for such punishment. Its not specifically mentioned in Quran anywhere and its continuity of Shariat e Mooswi)

did you see why that thread was locked? you asked me why i was not satisfied with Islam nd i gave my answer, but some intolerant bigots obviously had a problem with my views on islam and resorted to personal attacks. this is the problem with this forum, there is absolutely no room for anyone to have a different view. people need to stop being so overly sensitive, especially when they show no respect to other members themselves.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Southie, nobody cares who you support or which member('s posts) you like.

But come one, your behavior is simply embarrassing. You go beyond the level of merely agreeing with somebody. What you do is almost sucking up. Not because you excessively like certain member's posts. But the way you defend certain people and take their word as the truth. While they are just giving opinions like everyone else. Taking their words as the truth for yourself is not the problem at all. But you make it appear like an universal truth.

If you can't see it then I feel sory for you.

and you are supporting RV, who has been making non stop personal attacks because she cannot tolerate someone who has a different view on religion. stange how you cannot see any of that.

[redvelvet]

Re: The punishment of apostate

RV, please stop talking on my behalf. its clear that you cannot read or able to understand even the simplest things.

I don't care that you left Islam, that's your right and your business. What puts me off is your persistence in seeing Islam as a barbaric religion despite giving you examples from within the Quran/Sunnah/Hadith that it is not. Your questions have been answered many times, but the answers are not according to your conditions/standards, hence it is easy for you to accuse me of not knowing how to read/understand and in your nastier moods...of "bs'ing" and "spreading lies."

It is not only me, but SEVERAL other posters (Psyah, Muqaw, Saleem, Monk, Ali, etc etc) responded with the same points that I made, so therefore they must be bs'ers and liars and failures at reading comprehension as well. We provided you answers from three religious sources and they proved insufficient for you. I chuckled at you saying I can't read. My master's degree is in reading education, Mashallah se, so I do have experience in recognizing reading impairments; I'm not saying this to be arrogant but just sharing the irony of the situation with you. With several members giving you similar explanations, surely we ALL can't be crazy. Therefore the common denominator here is you. You are the one who is failing to understand and I don't believe your failure is due to any impairment in reading, or visual processing, nor are you deficient in intelligence. I think the failure to understand is due to bias.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

I don't care that you left Islam, that's your right and your business. What puts me off is your persistence in seeing Islam as a barbaric religion despite giving you examples from within the Quran/Sunnah/Hadith that it is not. Your questions have been answered many times, but the answers are not according to your conditions/standards, hence it is easy for you to accuse me of not knowing how to read/understand and in your nastier moods...of "bs'ing" and "spreading lies."

It is not only me, but SEVERAL other posters (Psyah, Muqaw, Saleem, Monk, Ali, etc etc) responded with the same points that I made, so therefore they must be bs'ers and liars and failures at reading comprehension as well. We provided you answers from three religious sources and they proved insufficient for you. I chuckled at you saying I can't read. My master's degree is in reading education, Mashallah se, so I do have experience in recognizing reading impairments; I'm not saying this to be arrogant but just sharing the irony of the situation with you. With several members giving you similar explanations, surely we ALL can't be crazy. Therefore the common denominator here is you. You are the one who is failing to understand and I don't believe your failure is due to any impairment in reading, or visual processing, nor are you deficient in intelligence. I think the failure to understand is due to bias.

RV, you didn't answer a single question but all you have done is make attacks and excuses. psyah has answered some and so did muqawee and i will respond to that soon. But all you have done is post painfully long BS posts full of attacks and no substance. Sadly your master's degree in reading hasn't taught you much.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

@muqawwee123

Read history of Islam and you will definitely find answers.

**And a faction of the People of the Scripture say [to each other], "Believe in that which was revealed to the believers at the beginning of the day and reject it at its end that perhaps they will abandon their religion. **

Surat 'Ali `Imran [3:72] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???

This was related to attempta made by people who were scholars of Jewish scriptures and people had trust on them. They used to accept Islam, remained in company of Prophet for all the day or few days and then all of sudden they rejected Islam to dishearten the people who trusted them leading to abandoning Islam.

It definitely constitute a dispute to malign the message. This was for the generation which directly received message from the Prophet and observed his life. In today’s time, when we are Muslims by birth and not by choice, there could be an interpretation that a born Muslim may opt to change religion and , depending on the society he / she lives, they should opt for migration or other step. If that person got anything substantial (not just an opinion) behind abandoning the religion and want to share that with world (like minded people), he / she got platforms, but that platform is definitely not a society where majority is following that religion and sensitive about that. This will definitely create fitna and that responsibility for such fitna will lie on the person having differing views.

so its a fitna when someone tries to convert others out of islam? so one cannot share their critical views on religion in a muslim country? fair enough, but that clearly shows thats how religion is tightly enforced.

regarding your question no.4:

Say, [O Muhammad], “If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.”

So love of the Prophet (SAW) has been ordered in Quran (of, course to those who believe). Now one question, when you love someone, will you keep silence, if anyone pass negative remarks and call names to that loved one (that may be your parents, your siblings, your children, etc)?

if someone says something negative about my loved ones, i cannot physically attack them or order them to be sent to jail. so is there a punishment for someone who openly criticizes the prophet in a muslim country?

[redvelvet]

Re: The punishment of apostate

RV, you didn't answer a single question but all you have done is make attacks and excuses. psyah has answered some and so did muqawee and i will respond to that soon. But all you have done is post painfully long BS posts full of attacks and no substance. Sadly your master's degree in reading hasn't taught you much.

I responded civilly to you in my last post, you are again attacking me ..now with my profession...and with such arrogance, Bella. Your first attack was to call my post bs and a bunch of lies. You have not carefully, along the way I have made similar points as others...you are just more receptive to reading theirs than mine. Okay that's fine. I am not going to argue with you anymore. Even if you don't come back to Islam, I hope that inshaAllah one day you are at least able to both see and understand the religion in a more positive light.

[Southie]

Re: The punishment of apostate

". In today's time, when we are Muslims by birth and not by choice, there could be an interpretation that a born Muslim may opt to change religion and , depending on the society he / she lives, they should opt for migration or other step. "

See this is problematic. And has nothing to do with scripture. They sound opt for migration? To me that is not a very healthy situation.

[Southie]

Re: The punishment of apostate

I don't care that you left Islam, that's your right and your business. What puts me off is your persistence in seeing Islam as a barbaric religion despite giving you examples from within the Quran/Sunnah/Hadith that it is not. Your questions have been answered many times, but the answers are not according to your conditions/standards, hence it is easy for you to accuse me of not knowing how to read/understand and in your nastier moods...of "bs'ing" and "spreading lies." I

It is not only me, but SEVERAL other posters (Psyah, Muqaw, Saleem, Monk, Ali, etc etc) responded with the same points that I made, so therefore they must be bs'ers and liars and failures at reading comprehension as well. We provided you answers from three religious sources and they proved insufficient for you. I chuckled at you saying I can't read. My master's degree is in reading education, Mashallah se, so I do have experience in recognizing reading impairments; I'm not saying this to be arrogant but just sharing the irony of the situation with you. With several members giving you similar explanations, surely we ALL can't be crazy. Therefore the common denominator here is you. You are the one who is failing to understand and I don't believe your failure is due to any impairment in reading, or visual processing, nor are you deficient in intelligence. I think the failure to understand is due to bias.

I responded civilly to you in my last post, you are again attacking me ..now with my profession...and with such arrogance, Bella. Your first attack was to call my post bs and a bunch of lies. You have not carefully, along the way I have made similar points as others...you are just more receptive to reading theirs than mine. Okay that's fine. I am not going to argue with you anymore. Even if you don't come back to Islam, I hope that inshaAllah one day you are at least able to both see and understand the religion in a more positive light.

Seriously? The first post has several insults thrown in. You know that. Bella is not the common denominator from my POV. And, I won't call her biased. Of course u didn't mean biased as an insult. Or nastier mood for that matter.

Anyway, carry on.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

I responded civilly to you in my last post, you are again attacking me ..now with my profession...and with such arrogance, Bella. Your first attack was to call my post bs and a bunch of lies. You have not carefully, along the way I have made similar points as others...you are just more receptive to reading theirs than mine. Okay that's fine. I am not going to argue with you anymore. Even if you don't come back to Islam, I hope that inshaAllah one day you are at least able to both see and understand the religion in a more positive light.

yet you keep posting and bringing me in other posts in other thread! you keep answering others on my behalf explaining what I think and what my view is! please grow up and just respond to the post instead of getting personal. please learn to accept that there are people with different views. thanks for your kind wishes, and I hope one day you can open your eyes and be able to see others POV as well without having to call them stupid. I am never rude to any poster unless they cross the line with insults and attacks which you did. i have argued with many other posters too but honestly, no one has made attacks like you have. there are other posters who have similar religious views as you, yet I haven't come across anyone who made attacks the way you did.

[redvelvet]

Re: The punishment of apostate

so its a fitna when someone tries to convert others out of islam? so one cannot share their critical views on religion in a muslim country? fair enough, but that clearly shows thats how religion is tightly enforced.

?

What they did cannot be called "sharing" of critical views. It's not sharing at all. There is a decent way to go about converting someone and a 'low' way to do so. Direct communication is best. But to pretend being Muslims and then to convert out of it as a way to confuse the new Muslims......that's a very, cheap and underhanded tactic. Fitna is mischief, the word is also used for those who try to turn people against one another...it stirs up bad feelings between people and effects can be devastating. Women, with their tendency to gossip, often create animosity amongst themselves, that's a fitna. Yes, such an underhanded tactic to turn new Muslims against Islam is a fitna......to stir up doubt and negative feelings in their hearts toward the messenger is Fitna...the same messenger who did not use such tactics himself and did not impose the faith on anyone. It's like a wolf in sheep's clothing...it's deceptive and a hypocrisy....it's fitna. The Jews could have stuck to voicing their criticism directly, that's fine. But they would prevent people from going near the prophet, attempts on his life were made, and as for this specific strategy in question.....it would entail lying. If they were so confident in their faith, they shouldn't have to pretend to be Muslims, shouldn't have to go to that length. The Quran and Prophet even encouraged people to go ask the Jews and Christians to reveal their holy books so that they could see that their books confirm that he was the final messenger. That's how upfront, bold and honest he was. The Jews hid their books apart from other forms of fitna. They resorted to one underhanded method after another, the worst being plots to kill. One will only tolerate their injustices for so long. So, again there is nothing at all respectful about these strategies....which ate not 'sharing' as you've assumed it to be. And if one fails to understand how and why it was a fitna....or even fails to understand how low and underhanded that is....then that person is far gone, us ka Allah hi haafiz in terms of ability to think/reason.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

^good way to answer RV. if you discuss like this without making attacks at me, we can actually have a meaningful debate/discussion. i understand thats how you see things, but i just feel people should be allowed to express what they feel about religion if they don't agree with it. what you call fitna, i call freedom of speech and expression. and i guess this is where we differ.

[psyah]

Re: The punishment of apostate

RV, you didn't answer a single question but all you have done is make attacks and excuses. psyah has answered some and so did muqawee and i will respond to that soon. But all you have done is post painfully long BS posts full of attacks and no substance. Sadly your master's degree in reading hasn't taught you much.

Peace bella88

Sister RV has posted other material such as she further qualified my post in her response in post number 71 ... She provided real examples of countries that allow other religions to prosper within the Muslim state.

It must be stressed that nearly all of the Qur'an is about generality and some parts are about entirety. Meaning we can see from the style whether something is an instruction, a statement of fact, a trend or an idea ... No compulsion in religion is not strictly an instruction ... So there will be room to manoeuvre around this in order to optimise other concepts within Islam ...

[redvelvet]

Re: The punishment of apostate

^good way to answer RV. if you discuss like this without making attacks at me, we can actually have a meaningful debate/discussion. i understand thats how you see things, but i just feel people should be allowed to express what they feel about religion if they don't agree with it. what you call fitna, i call freedom of speech and expression. and i guess this is where we differ.

I don't care for praise from you, much less condescending praise. I have expressed my opinions in this manner before, this isn't the first time. However, I think you didn't understand my current resoonse. Muqaw fitnah reference was about the jews who pretended to be Muslim with a deliberate attempt to convert out of the faith. Many of the early converts to Islam were servants, poor people. They had nothing worldly to gain from their conversion to Islam, but they had much to lose. They didn't gain wealth or status or power, they were risking their livelihood and lives. Many were tortured. So, firstly, the Prophet SAWS did not impose Islam on them; there was no compulsion. As Allah says in the Quran that upon the Prophet is only the duty of reminding. So, these converts were not forced, but they made huge sacrifices to accept Islam in the sense that it involved great risk. So, picture these new converts...some who have been through mental and physical torture....have begun to practice Islam. It's a new thing for them, much to learn and get used to, they still may be a bit shaky. And all of a sudden they see a huge number of Muslims suddenly convert out of Islam. How do you think they would feel? Confused and hurt and doubtful. See you only see this as "freedom of speech"...this is more than speech, it's deception, it's underhanded. You accused me of lies..well what do you call this particular tactic if not a huge lie? They were not being stopped from expressing their criticism of Islam. Heck they were even encouraged to share what was written in the Bible and Torah, so they were not stopped from expressing or sharing. But was it necessary to resort to this underhanded tactic and others? Was it necessary to tell people to stay away from the messenger, to ostracize him? To plan to kill him? Getting your kids to throw stones at him? This is not just speech or expression...these are dangerous actions. I am surprised you merely see this as "freedom of speech and expression"...or you might see it as "freedom to oppose/disbelieve"....but it's more than that, worse than that, I would say you've over-simplified it by calling is "speech" or "expression." I don't say the following with any intent to be snarky to you. I only started learning about the seerah of the Prophet and the Quran with tafsir maybe little over a year ago. It has removed some of my misconceptions and opened my mind. I suggest you do the same, not to convert to Islam but to gain a better understanding of it. If you read Quran, do so with tafsir not just translation, latter is inadequate. And reading the seerah of the Prophet can clear up misconceptions. Sometimes reading on your own provides greater clarification than a debate, esp an online one.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Peace bella88

Sister RV has posted other material such as she further qualified my post in her response in post number 71 ... She provided real examples of countries that allow other religions to prosper within the Muslim state.

It must be stressed that nearly all of the Qur'an is about generality and some parts are about entirety. Meaning we can see from the style whether something is an instruction, a statement of fact, a trend or an idea ... No compulsion in religion is not strictly an instruction ... So there will be room to manoeuvre around this in order to optimise other concepts within Islam ...

other religions being allowed to practice is not the same as allowing others to preach their religion to muslims. many scholars say it should not be allowed as per sharia for others to preach any other religion in a Muslim country. i remember watching dr zakir naiks response as being its not allowed because islam is the only truth so why should false religions be allowed to be preached?
from what I can see here, many things are considered fitna and not allowed. to me it does look like there is restriction on freedom and that prevents people from leaving religion and openly declaring their views.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

I don't care for praise from you, much less condescending praise. I have expressed my opinions in this manner before, this isn't the first time. However, I think you didn't understand my current resoonse. Muqaw fitnah reference was about the jews who pretended to be Muslim with a deliberate attempt to convert out of the faith. Many of the early converts to Islam were servants, poor people. They had nothing worldly to gain from their conversion to Islam, but they had much to lose. They didn't gain wealth or status or power, they were risking their livelihood and lives. Many were tortured. So, firstly, the Prophet SAWS did not impose Islam on them; there was no compulsion. As Allah says in the Quran that upon the Prophet is only the duty of reminding. So, these converts were not forced, but they made huge sacrifices to accept Islam in the sense that it involved great risk. So, picture these new converts...some who have been through mental and physical torture....have begun to practice Islam. It's a new thing for them, much to learn and get used to, they still may be a bit shaky. And all of a sudden they see a huge number of Muslims suddenly convert out of Islam. How do you think they would feel? Confused and hurt and doubtful. See you only see this as "freedom of speech"...this is more than speech, it's deception, it's underhanded. You accused me of lies..well what do you call this particular tactic if not a huge lie? They were not being stopped from expressing their criticism of Islam. But was it necessary to resort to this? Was it necessary to tell people to stay away from the messenger, to ostracize him? To plant to kill him? Getting your kids to throw stones at him? This is not just speech or expression...these are dangerous actions. I am surprised you merely see this as "freedom of speech and expression"...or you might see it as "freedom to oppose/disbelieve"....but it's more than that, worse than that, I would say you've over simplified it.

yes that last post was the first one from you without any attacks so i responded in the same way. its hard to respond to a post which is full of attacks and really serves no purpose, so hopefully you will keep that in mind from now on.
once again, you have completley different view and understanding on freedom of speech.
as far as about the time of the prophet, history has many sides, yours is coming from islamic POV. forget the past, but even today how free is someone to criticise islam in a muslim country?

[psyah]

Re: The punishment of apostate

so is there a punishment for someone who openly criticizes the prophet in a muslim country?

Peace bella88

The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is the best most sublime person of mankind that has ever lived and will ever live ... He is also the most beautiful ... Full of miracle ... Kindest, Wisest ... You will admire him (SAW) if you truly learn about him (SAW) ... If you don't feel that there is a problem in your knowledge about him (SAW) ... If after that you choose to criticise him (SAW) ... You will be doing it for one reason ... To harm the sensitivities of the Muslims ...

If you stand up and openly curse the mothers of people in a market square ... No law will be able to protect you from harm ... Because you in that moment have chosen to be an antagonist ... Which forces people to react to you emotionally not intellectually.

To a certain extent the same thing happens here ...

Put it this way if there was no punishment for insulting the Prophet (SAW) it would not matter ... The public would take it ... Since their emotions would be at boiling point. It is to protect the antagonist that they are taken into custody and given a trial to see whether their accusations are out of ignorance or hate ... And if out of ignorance they are given an out ...if not then the state will exercise due punishment in a more humane way that the public would want to do ...

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Peace bella88

The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is the best most sublime person of mankind that has ever lived and will ever live ... He is also the most beautiful ... Full of miracle ... Kindest, Wisest ... You will admire him (SAW) if you truly learn about him (SAW) ... If you don't feel that there is a problem in your knowledge about him (SAW) ... If after that you choose to criticise him (SAW) ... You will be doing it for one reason ... To harm the sensitivities of the Muslims ...

If you stand up and openly curse the mothers of people in a market square ... No law will be able to protect you from harm ... Because you in that moment have chosen to be an antagonist ... Which forces people to react to you emotionally not intellectually.

To a certain extent the same thing happens here ...

Put it this way if there was no punishment for insulting the Prophet (SAW) it would not matter ... The public would take it ... Since their emotions would be at boiling point. It is to protect the antagonist that they are taken into custody and given a trial to see whether their accusations are out of ignorance or hate ... And if out of ignorance they are given an out ...if not then the state will exercise due punishment in a more humane way that the public would want to do ...

To you he is the most beautiful person but not to me. There are many things which I dont like about him but i cannot post it here. I have read many hadith and books on the life of prophet and there are many things he did which i absolutely donot agree with. you didn't give me a clear cut answer here. just a simple yes or no, is there a punishment or there isn't? from your post, it seems that muslims have no tolerance when someone has anything negative to say about the prophet? please give short and to the point answers.
the bold part really points to the fact that there is no tolerance whatsoever, or am I misunderstanding this?? your reason is that court will gave a more humane punishment than the public?