The punishment of apostate

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: The punishment of apostate

It doesn't matter, Saleem. If someone wants total azaadi, they will have a problem with every single deterrent, even that of a warning from God. You can explain to this person until you're blue in the face the caveats in religion that show leniency and mercy, but they will only focus on the punishment. That will be the glaring point for them, everything else recedes into peripherals of their already biased minds. They want no consequences, no restrictions, no warnings, period. Simply put: it seems they believe that God has no authority over His creation, that is if they even believe in His existence.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Just ignore. One who believe never need reasoning (maanene ke liye janena zaroori nahi) and those who don’t believe will never accept how much you try (bhens ke aage been bajane ka koi faida nahi).

I’m really sick of all these debates and pattern of grouping on both sides. Patting the members from your side and rejecting the point of view from the other side. This must be ended as its getting boring :yawn:

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Peace bella88

I'm going to number my response, if you feel anything is amiss or needs further clarification then please provide the number ...

1) There is no compulsion in religion means ... No one is allowed to make another person confess to a faith that they themselves are not willingly going into, through the faculty of their own reasoning and desire.

2) Shari'ah is not the Deen ... It is the Legal System ... The Shari'ah for example binds the Muslim state to protect the Dhimmi, which is the Jizya paying non-Muslim.

3) Shari'ah has various interpretations ... They stems from the scripture from a collection of references that teach us how to implement a legal system.

4) There is a Hadith that states ... There shall be no harm, nor reciprocating harm ... So much of the penal system is based around this simple principle.

5) If a couple choose to fornicate and no one finds out then there is no punishment ... If an individual finds out ... He or she should veil them and not go around announcing it ... If society finds out then a trial is held and if sufficient witness to the act is not there, then no punishment can be levelled and the ones bringing the accusation without sufficient witness are punished under slander rules. There is a cleansing process for adultery or fornication or theft and so on ... Only if the crime is willingly offered and the person insists on being cleansed ... Or if there are actual witnesses who see the act. If there is enough circumstantial evidence then punishment is given but to a far lesser degree ...

6) Which leads on hadd punishment ... Hadd should not be levelled on people where there is only evidence and not undeniable proof.

7) There are a range of opinions of Shariah interpretation ... None of them compel others to become Muslim. Some of them do make becoming Muslim favourable in the socio-political sense. Just like dressing in a certain way, doing certain things in today's society is considered hip ...

8) I live in Qatar ... It is a Salafi and Ikhwani state (in other words a very strict literally interpreted following) ... Yet here you will find a Hindu temple, a Christian Church, places to buy alcohol and even nightclubs ... If you want that sort of thing ... They are just not openly advertised ...

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Re: The punishment of apostate

^bro Psyah, you have the patience of a saint, MA.

Yes, Muqaw, you're right. The debate is getting very tiresome. We won't see to eye-to-eye.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Read history of Islam and you will definitely find answers.

**And a faction of the People of the Scripture say [to each other], "Believe in that which was revealed to the believers at the beginning of the day and reject it at its end that perhaps they will abandon their religion. **

Surat 'Ali `Imran [3:72] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???

This was related to attempta made by people who were scholars of Jewish scriptures and people had trust on them. They used to accept Islam, remained in company of Prophet for all the day or few days and then all of sudden they rejected Islam to dishearten the people who trusted them leading to abandoning Islam.

It definitely constitute a dispute to malign the message. This was for the generation which directly received message from the Prophet and observed his life. In today’s time, when we are Muslims by birth and not by choice, there could be an interpretation that a born Muslim may opt to change religion and , depending on the society he / she lives, they should opt for migration or other step. If that person got anything substantial (not just an opinion) behind abandoning the religion and want to share that with world (like minded people), he / she got platforms, but that platform is definitely not a society where majority is following that religion and sensitive about that. This will definitely create fitna and that responsibility for such fitna will lie on the person having differing views.

regarding your question no.4:

Say, [O Muhammad], “If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.”

So love of the Prophet (SAW) has been ordered in Quran (of, course to those who believe). Now one question, when you love someone, will you keep silence, if anyone pass negative remarks and call names to that loved one (that may be your parents, your siblings, your children, etc)?

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Re: The punishment of apostate

^Muqaw,

in Bella’s thread I recall that the same explanation was given that a group of Jews would fake being Muslims and later convert out of Islam to confuse and hurt the new and sincere converts to Islam. And that there is an interpretation that it’s this sort of treacherous apostasy that the penalty applies to.

The new converts suffered horribly at the hands of the non-Muslims (pagans etc). Being burned, beaten, I think one woman was tortured and as a result became blind, etc etc. But the Prophet SAWS’s treatment of them was one of mercy. When one does not want to take the time out to read the history of Islam and to never expose themselves to the beauty in Islam and only wants to see it as a cruel faith, how is this attitude healthy in a world already fraught with hatred and wars? How are you any different than the people you condemn for being prejudiced toward others. Prejudice is removed with knowledge. To obtain knowledge, you have to first empty your mind of all bias.

Even if Bella doesn’t want to convert to Islam, that’s fine, it’s her right. But at least infuse some flexibility in your perception about Islam by reading up on the life of the Messenger who helped establish and spread religion. The fact that it was a faith you were born in, that many of your family members still uphold is enough of a reason to do your research instead of getting into squabbles. It’s a rather discomfortimg thought to associate your Muslim family members with a faith you find inhumane. This alone should, I think, encourage one to do a non-biased study instead of seeking out headlines that only justify your bias. It’s kinda like typing a biased search in Google and yielding results which justify your bias. That’s not fair.

Regarding her question # 4: I heard yesterday in a lecture that the scholars have forbidden getting into heated debates over religion. I have not heard of punishments for this criticizing Islam. Forget openly criticizing Islam, the Prophet SAWS even forgave such staunch enemies of Islam that were out to kill him and that mutilated the bodies of his companions, which are far WORSE acts than just criticizing religion. Just reading this part of the seerah alone would answer question # 4 …IF …one has an open and unbiased mind. If this is not sufficient for the enquirer and she prefers to give greater credence to the actions of Muslim kings and presidents than the life of the most important figure of Islam, the Prophet SAWS, then Muqaw nothing more can be said…for that is clearly a biased mind.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

It does not take a rocker scientist to figure out what the unresolved question is that bella posed - is there compulsion in religion. In this specific case it appears there is.

Throwing in ridiculous lies abt planned parenthood was not a shining moment though. As for liking posts, we are free to like posts that resonate positively. Why make a big deal about that?

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Peace Southie

La ikra ha fi -d-Deen ... This means 'No force is in "The Way of Life" ...'

This means the Way of Life does not advocate forcing people to accept it ... Does it mean people are free to become Muslim and then change back, and then change again ... Of course it does ... Does it include people pretending to become Muslim ... Or creating a negative propaganda of the religion ... No it does include that ... There are exceptions for everything ... Even killing, theft, and other sins ... There are exceptions ...

People who are persecuted for simply choosing what they are comfortable with ... That is a problem in some modern interpretations of the Shari'ah.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

There is also no rocket science to understand that if you don't believe and respect some religion / ideology, then just don't instigate people who believe. They got their reasons, which non-believers will not listen to. So, why wasting time and energy and making every other thread replica of previous threads?

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Re: The punishment of apostate

I do agree what you have written and hereby declare that I'll not waste my energy in such discussions any more. There is a debate to learn something regarding differing view and there is a debate which is based on pre-concieved ideas and already decided conclusions. unfortunately, all these debates on these forums, fall in second category. You don't like Islam, fine.. Its known to every one.. but please stop making every second thread running in same direction.

I openly asked a question 'are you satisfied with your religion?' That thread had to be closed because of this attitude. I had in my mind to discuss the matter about 'Qatl e Murtad', but I stopped seeing the respected mature posters here. BTW, I got my answer while listening to tafseer of Dr Israr (Surah e Baqra's 6 rukoo is the basis for such punishment. Its not specifically mentioned in Quran anywhere and its continuity of Shariat e Mooswi)

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Re: The punishment of apostate

In a lecture that I listened to know, it was said that this ayat applies to religion in general, as in all religions. It is not laa ikraha fil Islam, if it were then it would mean that there is no compulsion in Islam. But the use of the word deen means that there is no compulsion in all religions. We cannot compel non Muslim, nor other Muslims. Nor are non-Muslims to compel us.

Surah Kafiroon says "Say, Oh disbelievers....I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshipers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshiper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshipers of what I worship. For you is your religion and for me is my religion."

If poor examples of Muslim leaders are going to be used, why not positive examples. Are there not Islamic nations where People of other faiths are living alongside Muslims? There are millions of Coptic Christians in Egypt. If Islam is a religion of compulsion, would they even be there? No. Muslims ruled Spain for centuries and did not compel the people to convert. Later on they were wiped out by the Christian Crusaders. Was every country that is predominantly Muslim invaded by a Muslim army? There are positive and negative examples throughout history, but maybe those with an agenda only want to focus on the negative.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Add Muslim rule in India as well :)

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Re: The punishment of apostate

^Yes, that too. Despite the Muslim rule, today non-Muslims make up the majority population. But no. We are people of brute force, barbarians.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Wow, this is becoming painfully embarrassing.

Bella, seriously, don't you see a pattern in your posts? You don't post to have a discussion in these kind of threads. You take part in such discussions to provoke, to elicit certain responses to prove your right, to brag (yes that is what you do) about your lifestyle in order to evoke responses, and when you finally get a reaction (which most of the time is a decent and mild one) you fall into defense mode and victim mode, saying: see, you are intolerant and bigoted.
You will be one of the first ones to insult and when you get it back you totally forget that the other response was a reaction to your similar kind of response.

You call yourself open-minded and tolerant, but your posts are not a reflection of tolerance and open-mindedness at all. You do exactly what you accuse others of. Stop thinking that only your words are the truth, because that is how you come off as.
The other posters show much more respect in their posts, despite their different point of view. Sorry, can't say the same about you. As soon as somebody challenges you, you will call them a liar and start acting childish.

Can't you see? Nobody cares at all what lifestyle you follow. Instead it is you who keeps mentioning it randomly, as if you want to prove how awesome you are. If a religious person does that then he is arrogant and shoves it into other people's throats.

You want to live a certain way, good for you. But learn to debate in an adult way instead of resorting to cheap tacticts.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Southie, nobody cares who you support or which member('s posts) you like.

But come one, your behavior is simply embarrassing. You go beyond the level of merely agreeing with somebody. What you do is almost sucking up. Not because you excessively like certain member's posts. But the way you defend certain people and take their word as the truth. While they are just giving opinions like everyone else. Taking their words as the truth for yourself is not the problem at all. But you make it appear like an universal truth.

If you can't see it then I feel sory for you.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

That is OK Le. Very few people's have touched me like bella ' s posts have. I say this without reservations. There is humanity, empathy and honesty in her posts. So yes, when I read her posts, she echos my sentiments.

I won't want to argue with you.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

The call is only by proof, logic and inference, Islam gives man the chance to believe in any religion he chooses and only announces being a Muslim after persuasion, assurance and evidence, once he becomes a Muslim by persuasion and when he apostatizes he seduces other Muslims around him, so Islam takes a position towards him so as not to affect those around him and they also reverse, this is the opinion of some Muslim scholars. But our opinion as most modern Muslim scholars such as the former Sheikh of Al-Azhar Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawy and others, they see that killing the apostate is not a must in Sharia but only in some situations in which the apostate himself turns to be a fighter and a disputant against Islam."

No one is trying to instigate anyone. This was in the OP. And bella had the following questions. That is it.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Here are her questions

"I have a few questions here, can someone explain the bold part?*
1)what qualifies as a disputant against islam?
2) does sharia allow an apostate to commit blasphemy and openly speak about why they left islam or what they found wrong in the religion and to speak about religion in a critical way?*
3) if a Muslim converts to Christianity, or any other religion, are they allowed to preach their new religion in a muslim sharia country? as per zakir naik, its not allowed in islam. but i dont know if he's right or is also ignorant about the real islam which people here seem to know more about.*
4) is there a punishment for those who are critical or say anything negative about islamic holy figures and scriptures, such as messegners, prophets,caliphs, Quran, or hadith (in a muslim sharia enforc

Things got heated up when she was attacked without any attempt to answer reasonable questions. As always she conducted herself with dignity.

I am out of this thread. If I do happen to see her posts in this thread or elsewhere that I like, with ur permission, I will exercise my choice to do so.
You folks should me more concerned abt spread of misinformation abt planned parenthood ik attempt to make a case against sexual freedom in the west.

But that would simply be asking for too much. Have a nice day.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

sothie: random stuff. read it couple of time, I trust your brain It would arrange info properly.

1-We can not reduce US to Bradly Manning or Edward Snowden. Country is taking care of its citizens.. made advance in science( using eastern European scientists) . beautiful landscape.
2-punishment is a reality!!! I hope you are aware of there are people in jails in all the country in the world ? Not every one is jail for physically hurting some one.
3-Every society protect its foundation. There is a reason even in developed country punishment of treason is death.
(In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more extreme acts against one's sovereign or nation.(from wiki ))

4- Just because most of media is against islam , muslims should NOT bent down to please critic like your self. And have no law to protect their societies.

5-What world do you live in?? talking against islam and prophet HAS played out. Ithink I whole history Person written most against is the prophet. For sure most spoken against!!

Ask you self in modern history who is the only force in academia ?? Do you know how much efforts english/westren orientalist put in to discredit quran/prophet ??
Do you know how many orientalist ended up being muslims?? to give you a taste listen to this
One famous orientalist at age 94 , after writing against prophet all his life says this. "declaring Muhammad(pbuh) as non-a-prophet pose more problem then it solves " some thing like that.

So It has all played out.

Why law then, you may ask...

Because not every one knows all that.. doing research on the street rather then in universities, cause fitna. *
Example of *finta *would be a molvie in pakistan in his mosque infront of famous *mandir *telling non-scholars history between hinduism and islam.
He might have zero truth.. or zero logic. but sure he can create BIG *fitna

I would love a law which can put such people behind bars.

Also internet is full of anti islamic videos, more stuff against islam then any other religion. Yet after this new surge of information more people turning to islam then ever before. Its not easy task to hide truth from open mind
(monk 2014)

So If I have to guess one, convert or two or a few hounded people cant hurt islam, as organized efforts have been made all through the history.
But such people can create social unrest. Fitna no one wants that.....

All those people leaving islam are most welcome to put their ideas on youtube..etc... please ask me I will pm you my fav ex-muslims who preach Christianity and talk against islam. I would be happy to send you that.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Funny or sad part is you guys are so arrogant that.

We make a point.

queer: remembers it as long as thread last.
southie: remembers in for one page.
Bella: remembers it, till she see first full stop.

Then back to square one. Dude have some respect for us small people. Show us your honesty towards even what don't sound nice to your ears. come on!!!