The name Umer according to Shia's??????

[Lajawab]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

@BOY-NICE

First of all the revelation had already been complete by that time so saying that someone prevented the revetion is nothing but ignorance.

This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. [Quran, 5:3]

Secondly, no one is saying that anyone can stop Allah [swt]'s decree or ‘Will’. The point which needs to be kept in mind is that there are two things:

1. Allah’s command.
2. Allah’s will.

It is in the hands of the people either to adhere to the ‘commands’ of Allah [swt] and get on the path of paradise or to ‘reject’ the ‘commands’ of Allah [swt] and start the journey to Hell. For example, Allah [swt] has commanded us not to drink alcohol, but still people do not pay heed to the words of Allah [swt] and they drink it.
Coming to Allah’s will, no one can change or deny it but its only in His own hands to change. For example, if Allah [swt] ‘wills’ to send rain today, no one in the wolrd have any power whatsoever to prevent it.

Therefore, using the logic of Qadr in the “tragedy of thursday” is totally flawed.

*The word used in this verse is Ummi *which means the person who remains the same in his native endowments as was born, without receiving any education or training from any (outside) source. The Holy Prophet did not receive knowledge or education from any mortal but by Allah Himself. He was born with divinely endowed .wisdom and remained the same, without letting any worldly agency influence his self, tutored and perfected by Allah Himself.
Allah has revealed to you the book and the wisdom and taught you what you did not know. Great has been the grace of Allah on you. (NISA: 113)

There were some important elements of “kufr” invovled in the “tragedy of Thursday” which amazingly i didnt find in the post by Lajwab full of ‘Kufr’ elements in defense of the blasphemous attitute of a few people, which pushed me to post and give some food for thought.

The ‘Tragedy of Thursday’ shows three things:

1. Prophet [s] asked something which people standing there didnt obey. While Holy Verses commands:

Surah al Maidah verse 92** “Obey Allah and Obey his Prophet and worry, and be warned that the Prophet’s duty is only to deliver the message clearly”**

Surah Mujadilah verses 12-13** "Perform Salat (Prayer), give Zakat and Obey Allah and his Prophet"**

Surah Aal-e-Imran verse 32** Say, “Obey Allah and the Prophet, but if they turn back, then verily Allah does not love the disbelievers”**

Surah Anfal verse 20:*** “O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak).”***

2. People started rasing their voice over Prophet’s voice while we read in Quran:
“…When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, “Go away and leave me.” …” [Sahih Bukhari]

[49:2] O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.

3. The quarreled in a matter and didnt make Prophet [s] arbitrator while Quran commands us:

“…When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, “Go away and leave me.” …” [Sahih Bukhari]

Surah Anfal verse 46*** “And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel?.”***

Surah Nisa verse 65 “But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.” The words used here 'Thanaza" -dispute will have significance later

Surah AL-AHZAB, verse 36:* “It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path”***

====
The follwing Holy verse gives ultimate commands inrespect of whatever happened on “Thursday”
Surah Hashr verse 7 "And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal."

====

Then what would you call Hz. Ali 's actions when during the signing of the treaty of Hudaibiya, the Holy Prophet :saw: told Hz. Ali to rub out his name, then Hz. Ali outrightly refused to do so?

At that time, the Holy Prophet :saw: was neither under the influence of death throes or under extreme influence of any sickness…Yet Hz. Ali refused yto obey him…Is there any foreknowledge as to why he would do that?

[Dr_Sufi]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

Dear GS People

Assalam-o-Alaikum

May Allah Almighty be pleased with all of you.

I personally and very humbly think that instead of finding differences, its about time that we should start finding some commonalities and similarities amongst ourselves.

Yes it is true that the name Umar is rare among Shias, but at the same time it is also true that the names of certain personalities of Ahl-e-Bait are also uncommon, if not rare in certain denominations of Islam. Suffice it to say that when discussions, logics and counter logics for almost 1400 years have not been fruitful, then discussions on this forum will also not lead to any conclusion.

Over here let me share certain facts with my Shia and Sunni brothern.

Lets assume that there were certain differences among Hazrat Ali (RA) and Hazrat Umar (RA). Yet we see that in times of need, Hazrat Umar (RA) would ask for the opinion of Hazrat Ali (RA), which was always graciously accorded.

Lets assume that both of them had a bit of friction in their personal relationships. Yet we see Hazart Umar (RA) asking for the hand of one of Hazrat Ali's (RA) daughter in marriage. (This is not agrred upon by most of our Shia brothern).

Lets assume that there was some rift in between their clans. Yet we see Hazrat Umar (RA) telling his son to go to Hazart Imam Hassan (AS) for the endorsment of the term "You are the son of our Slave".

Without going into any controversy, I personally infer that the relations between Ahl-e-Bait (RA) and Sahaba (RA) were not that inflammable, as are the relations between different sects of Muslims today. So with an open heart the Shias should listen and ponder to the Sunni view point, and the Sunnis should give due repect to Shias point of view.

Mind you, in the eyes of NON MUSLIMS, we are NOT, Shias, Sunnis, Wahabis and Deobandis, we all are simply MUSLIMS.

Reagrds for all of you.

[Dua_Zahra]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

Salaamz

So to my sunni bros and sisters I would like to ask you what happened at the place called Ghadeer. What did the Prophet of Islam P.B.U.H said when he held the the arm of Imam Ali A.S that who so evers i' am Mola , Ali is there Mola and after that he said TodaY allah SWT has completed his deen. Diden't a man refuse to obey this and a stone came from the sky and struck him on his head where he died instantly. and there was Hz Umer and Hz abu bakr standing too.and ofcourse they must have heard this.afterwould at the time of the prophet(P.B.U.H)Wafat they went from there and reached straight in *SAQIFAH BANI **SAA'DAA for the announcement of their khilafat and they came to Hz Ali(a.s)s house and asked for the Baiyet?and this happend in few days after Prophet(p.b.u.h)Wafat.then there was not a long time of *what else do you want in your face evidence.

[Das_Reich]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

[QUOTE]

Without going into any controversy, I personally infer that the relations between Ahl-e-Bait (RA) and Sahaba (RA) were not that inflammable, as are the relations between different sects of Muslims today. So with an open heart the Shias should listen and ponder to the Sunni view point, and the Sunnis should give due repect to Shias point of view.

[/QUOTE]

first of all we need more people like yourself .....:)

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

@Dr Sufi

Mind you, in the eyes of NON MUSLIMS, we are NOT, Shias, Sunnis, Wahabis and Deobandis, we all are simply MUSLIMS.

Respected Dr. **Sufi **

Your sentiments of unity are much appreciated but there is something amiss.

In your post above you are talking about unity and yet it is you who is hair-splitting.

How easily you ‘kick out’ the **Wahabis and Deobandis **out of Sunnis and yet you just mention Shias just as one solid block. You could easily have spilt the Shias into to very distinct groups whose intolerance of each other is much more intense than that of splits within the Sunnis.

Note: - Just to remind to sects within Shias: Usuli, Akhbari, Shayki, Fiver – Zaydi, Sevener – Ismaili, Sevener – Bohra, Alawi

You had done the same in your earlier post in another thread. http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=4181832&postcount=18

@Dr Sufi

May Allah Almighty give all the Muslims, the true respect and love of both the Ahl-e-Bait and Companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh). May Allah Almighty unite all the Muslim brethern as one Ummah as envisaged by our Holy Prophet (mpbh). May Allah Almighty make all of us ONE, without the discrimination of SUNNI, SHIA, WAHABI, DEOBANDI etc. Ameen.

Brother if you preach Unity than it is imperative that you practice it too. Sorry to give you advice in open forum

Brother care to reply to the following post of Dua Zahra.

@Dua Zahra

Salaamz

So to my sunni bros and sisters I would like to ask you what happened at the place called Ghadeer. What did the Prophet of Islam P.B.U.H said when he held the the arm of Imam Ali A.S that who so evers i’ am Mola , Ali is there Mola and after that he said TodaY allah SWT has completed his deen. Diden’t a man refuse to obey this and a stone came from the sky and struck him on his head where he died instantly. and there was Hz Umer and Hz abu bakr standing too.and ofcourse they must have heard this.afterwould at the time of the prophet(P.B.U.H)Wafat they went from there and reached straight in **SAQIFAH BANI **SAA’DAA for the announcement of their khilafat and they came to Hz Ali(a.s)s house and asked for the Baiyet?and this happend in few days after Prophet(p.b.u.h)Wafat.then there was not a long time of what else do you want in your face evidence.

.

[Dr_Sufi]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

@Das Reich

first of all we need more people like yourself .....:)

Thanx a lot Sir.

Regards

[Dr_Sufi]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

Respected Brother Ibn Sadique

Assalam-o-Alaikum

It was extremely gracious on your part to remind me of my short-comings. Yes Sir I agree that you have a point. May be I should not use these four sects only. But Sir, I am living in Pakistan, where these four sects predominate.

As far as **Shias **are concerned, I am fully aware that this term is loosely applied to all of those people who bore, bear and will continue to bear allegiance to Hazrat Ali (KAW), in one form or the other.

They include the Imamis **as a whole, who in due course of time have come to be known as **Asna Ashrias i.e., the believers in 12 Imams. They include the Asna Ashrias Usuly **and **Asna Ashria Akhbari. Mind you Sir, some historians label Imamis as different from **Asna Ashria **while others say that they are one and the same.

Then are the Seveners **which include the **Ismailies and the Bohras.

Then there are the Zaidis.

Brother you probably forgot to mention about the Nusairis and Druze who also claim to be Shias. So much so that even Babbis and Bahais started as Shias but drifted in due course of time.

And one other faction which I assume you might never have heard of are the Tafzeelis. The list goes on.

Now coming on to the Sunnis,let me assure you Sir, that the list is even longer. Whom do you think were the Mutazillis, Baramakis, Qaramatis, Qadaris, Jabbaaris. From the differentiating point of non allegiance to Hazrat Ali (KAW), they all can be called as Sunnis. But from pure definition, we call only the followers of 4 schools as Sunnis and they include Hanafis, Malikis, Shafaees and Hanballis.

Now for your kind perusal, let me tell you why Sunnis, are different from Deobandis and Wahabis. In Pakistan, a large majority of Sunnis follow the Hanafi school of thought. Over a period of the last 150 years or so, these Hanafi Sunnis of Indo-Pakistan sub-continent have been divided in two main groups. Both of them largely follow the same school of thought i.e., Hananfi but one of them is alienating itself from the main stream. They have started adopting certain beliefs differnt from the main stream Sunnis. They follow their own school of thought which is located at Deoband in India. The remaining ones are the followers of Barelvi school of thought.

Deobandis are more common in Sarhad and Balochistan while Barelvis are predominent in the Punjab and Sind. The Taliban are also Deobandis. So we can divide these are two distinct groups of Sunnis into Sunni Hanafi Barelvis and Sunni Hanafi Deobandis.

Deobandis **dont want to be called as **Sunnis and like the term Deobandi. Quite interestingly, they use the term Raza Khani for the Barelvis.

So in Pakistan by Sunnis we generally mean Barelvis.

Deobandis **are content in being called as such instead of being called as **Sunnis (while most of them refute this, but in actual practice, they are different).

Let me tell you some very important facts over here. The Sunni Barelvis believe in the 12 Imams of Shias (surprised?) while Deobandis dont. Sunnis Barelvis believe Holy Prophet (mpbuh) and the Panjtan Pak plus 12 Imams to be Noori while Deobandis **dont. **Sunni Barelvis call the Panjtan Pak as Allahis Sallam while Deobandis dont. These are just a few of the differences. So for general referance, Sunnis and Deobandis are different, yet they claim to follow the same Fiqah.

Now lets come to the Ahle Hadith or as they are usually called Wahabis whom Shias **usually call **Nasibi. They are completely different from Sunnis as they do not follow any of the Sunni Imams or their school of thought. That is why they have also been called as Ghair Muqallid. They do follow some of the teachings of Imam Ahmad Ibne Hanbal, elaborated by Imam Taimia and further interpreted by Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab, hence the name Wahabi. Other names given to them are Salafis, Tauheedis, Mohidins etc.

Having written thus far, let me assure you Sir that by the Grace of Allah Almighty, I can enlighten you much more on the different sects of Islam, but I dont think it worthwhile. Let the sleeping dogs stay wherever thay are. It was never my intention to start any controversy in the first place but since you probably did not know the actual differnces between Sunnis, Deobandis, and Ahle Hadith, I thought it worthwhile to add my humble views.

Suffice it to say that for all Shias, the rest all i.e., Sunnis, Deobandis and Wahabbis are the same.

For all Non Shias, Twelvers Usuly/Akhbari, Seveners Ismailis/Bohras, Imamis, Zaidis, Druze and Nusairis are the same.

And for all Non Muslims, Shias **and all of their groups, **Sunnis **and alll of their groups and **Wahabis **and all of their grouyps, are the same i.e., **MUSLIMS.

Regarding the question asked by Sister Dua Zahra, Inshallah, I shall reply later.

In the last I would again reiterate my point of view. I fully believe that everybody has a right to follow ones religion and sect in a manner which suites them. By writing down the above lines, I am in no way trying to redicule, belittle or make fun of any body. Whatver I have written is in simple plain English without using any difficult terminology and to avoid any confusion. I respect the views of every sect of Islam and inadvertantly, if any body feels hurt, I offer my sincerest applologies. That goes for you too Sir Ibn Saddique. Please do correct me in future as well. It will always be a pleasure to share and learn from someone as knowlegdeable as you are.

With profound regards.

Wassalam.

[Iconoclast]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

Dear Dr Sufi

Brelvis are a minority in Pakistan, i dunno about India. Pakistan is majority Deobandis. So its the Brelvis who have broken away fron main stream sunnis nit the other way round.

And Sufis themselvesare minority among the muslim worldpresent only in India,Pak and certain parts of Africa.

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

@Dr Sufi

Respected Brother Ibn Sadique

Assalam-o-Alaikum

It was extremely gracious on your part to remind me of my short-comings. Yes Sir I agree that you have a point. May be I should not use these four sects only. But Sir, I am living in Pakistan, where these four sects predominate.

As far as **Shias **are concerned, I am fully aware that this term is loosely applied to all of those people who bore, bear and will continue to bear allegiance to Hazrat Ali (KAW), in one form or the other.

They include the **Imamis **as a whole, who in due course of time have come to be known as Asna Ashrias i.e., the believers in 12 Imams. They include the **Asna Ashrias Usuly **and Asna Ashria Akhbari. Mind you Sir, some historians label Imamis as different from **Asna Ashria **while others say that they are one and the same.

Then are the **Seveners **which include the Ismailies and the Bohras.

Then there are the Zaidis.

Brother you probably forgot to mention about the Nusairis and Druze who also claim to be Shias. So much so that even Babbis and Bahais started as Shias but drifted in due course of time.

And one other faction which I assume you might never have heard of are the Tafzeelis. The list goes on.

Now coming on to the Sunnis,let me assure you Sir, that the list is even longer. Whom do you think were the Mutazillis, Baramakis, Qaramatis, Qadaris, Jabbaaris. From the differentiating point of non allegiance to Hazrat Ali (KAW), they all can be called as Sunnis. But from pure definition, we call only the followers of 4 schools as Sunnis and they include Hanafis, Malikis, Shafaees and Hanballis.

Now for your kind perusal, let me tell you why Sunnis, are different from Deobandis and Wahabis. In Pakistan, a large majority of Sunnis follow the Hanafi school of thought. Over a period of the last 150 years or so, these Hanafi Sunnis of Indo-Pakistan sub-continent have been divided in two main groups. Both of them largely follow the same school of thought i.e., Hananfi but one of them is alienating itself from the main stream. They have started adopting certain beliefs differnt from the main stream Sunnis. They follow their own school of thought which is located at Deoband in India. The remaining ones are the followers of Barelvi school of thought.

Deobandis are more common in Sarhad and Balochistan while Barelvis are predominent in the Punjab and Sind. The Taliban are also Deobandis. So we can divide these are two distinct groups of Sunnis into Sunni Hanafi Barelvis and Sunni Hanafi Deobandis.

**Deobandis **dont want to be called as Sunnis and like the term Deobandi. Quite interestingly, they use the term Raza Khani for the Barelvis.

So in Pakistan by Sunnis we generally mean Barelvis.

**Deobandis **are content in being called as such instead of being called as Sunnis (while most of them refute this, but in actual practice, they are different).

Let me tell you some very important facts over here. The Sunni Barelvis believe in the 12 Imams of Shias (surprised?) while Deobandis dont. Sunnis Barelvis believe Holy Prophet (mpbuh) and the Panjtan Pak plus 12 Imams to be Noori while **Deobandis **dont. Sunni Barelvis call the Panjtan Pak as Allahis Sallam while Deobandis dont. These are just a few of the differences. So for general referance, Sunnis and Deobandis are different, yet they claim to follow the same Fiqah.

Now lets come to the Ahle Hadith or as they are usually called Wahabis whom **Shias **usually call Nasibi. They are completely different from Sunnis as they do not follow any of the Sunni Imams or their school of thought. That is why they have also been called as Ghair Muqallid. They do follow some of the teachings of Imam Ahmad Ibne Hanbal, elaborated by Imam Taimia and further interpreted by Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab, hence the name Wahabi. Other names given to them are Salafis, Tauheedis, Mohidins etc.

Having written thus far, let me assure you Sir that by the Grace of Allah Almighty, I can enlighten you much more on the different sects of Islam, but I dont think it worthwhile. Let the sleeping dogs stay wherever thay are. It was never my intention to start any controversy in the first place but since you probably did not know the actual differnces between Sunnis, Deobandis, and Ahle Hadith, I thought it worthwhile to add my humble views.

Suffice it to say that for all Shias, the rest all i.e., Sunnis, Deobandis and Wahabbis are the same.

For all Non Shias, Twelvers Usuly/Akhbari, Seveners Ismailis/Bohras, Imamis, Zaidis, Druze and Nusairis are the same.

And for all Non Muslims, **Shias **and all of their groups, **Sunnis **and alll of their groups and **Wahabis **and all of their grouyps, are the same i.e., MUSLIMS.

Regarding the question asked by Sister Dua Zahra, Inshallah, I shall reply later.

In the last I would again reiterate my point of view. I fully believe that everybody has a right to follow ones religion and sect in a manner which suites them. By writing down the above lines, I am in no way trying to redicule, belittle or make fun of any body. Whatver I have written is in simple plain English without using any difficult terminology and to avoid any confusion. I respect the views of every sect of Islam and inadvertantly, if any body feels hurt, I offer my sincerest applologies. That goes for you too Sir Ibn Saddique. Please do correct me in future as well. It will always be a pleasure to share and learn from someone as knowlegdeable as you are.

With profound regards.

Wassalam.

Brother Dr. Sufi - Salaams

Thank you for detailed reply but it was more in Pakistani context.

As far everybody knows there are only two sects in Islam: shiatul’Ali. [Partisans of Ali] - For short Shia & Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaa [People of Sunnah (of the Prophet (saw)) and group] – for short Sunni.

Shias take their religion from Prophet (saw) through Hz. Fatimah (ra) Hz. Ali (ra), their sons Hz. Hassan (ra) and Hz. Hussein (ra) and Hz. Hussein (ra) & their offspring. Whom they consider to be Ahlul Bayt (raa).

Shias consider that Islamic leadership should be ONLY through the offspring of Hz. Hussien (ra) – Imamate.

Sunnis take their religion from Prophet (saw) through Ijma of his Companions (raa) and Ahlul Bayt (raa). [Sunnis take Prophet (saw)’s wives and his cousins to be part and parcel of his Ahlu bayt]. So Sunnis do follow Ahlul Bayt but not exclusively.

Sunnis considered the Islamic leadership is open and not exclusive right of the Shia version of Ahlul Bayt. - Khilaafat

Brother Dr. Sufi these are the basic two sects in Islam. Rest of the split is within this division.

To be Sunni does NOT mean to follow the four Imams (raa). This has nothing to do with Aqeedah but fiqh.

Now coming on to the Sunnis,let me assure you Sir, that the list is even longer. Whom do you think were the Mutazillis, Baramakis, Qaramatis, Qadaris, Jabbaaris.

Brother please check up **Qaramatis and Baramkis **– these were Shia sects – forerunners of Ismaili sect within the Shia .

As for **Mu’tazilah, Jahmihiyyah, Qadiriyyah and Jabriyyah **read the no. 105 from the following link: (quoted below for you)

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=2295316&postcount=1

105. This is our religion and it is what we believe in, both inwardly and outwardly, and we renounce any connection, before Allah, with anyone who goes against what we have said and made clear.

We ask Allah to make us firm in our belief and seal our lives with it and to protect us from variant ideas, scattering opinions and evil schools of view such as those of the **Mushabbihah, the Mu’tazilah, the Jahmiyyah the Jabriyah, the Qadriyah **and others like them who go against the Sunnah and Jama’ah and have allied themselves with error.

We renounce any connection with them and in our opinion they are in error and on the path of destruction.

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

@Iconoclast

Dear Dr Sufi

Brelvis are a minority in Pakistan, i dunno about India. Pakistan is majority Deobandis. So its the Brelvis who have broken away fron main stream sunnis nit the other way round.

They may be in the minority in pakistan, but there is no group anywhere near them in size

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Pakistan

…in Pakistan, Muslims are divided into following schools: the Barelvis 48%, Deobandis 25%, Ithna Ashari 19%, Ahle Hadith 4%, Khojas 1%, Bohras 0.25%, and other smaller sects.

[CheGuvera]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

@BOY-NICE

nothing could be more derogatory and defamatory for the Prophet of Allah than this. Allah [swt] bestowed wisdom to his Prophet [s] of all Prophets, remember all prophets were given some miracles while our Last Prophe [s] was given all those miracles where were given to previous ones. No one even among the accusers of Him [s] being hallucinating advanced such an statement full of audacity rather they had a fear in their hearts, they know what He [s] was going to write which they didnt want Him to.

Really, so you are saying that he was literate and hence wrote, rather concocted the whole Quran all on his own…

[CheGuvera]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

@BOY-NICE

They indeed have what u said “foreknowledge” in way that they cought the wind what Prophet [s] was going to write to them. Just compare the words which He [s] said at that time:

‘Come near, I will write for you something after which you will not go astray.’

With what He[s] had said earlier:

“I am leaving you two weighty things, if you follow them you will net go astray, they are the Qur’an and my Ahlul’bayt”.

so He [s] just wanted to put things in black and white at that time while some opportunists did not even hesitate from throwing suspicion on the mental state of Holy Prophet [s] and raising their voices infront of Holy Prophet [s] so that His [s] voice is lowered.

So what other divine powers did they have…Could they bring dead back to life??/

[CheGuvera]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

They may be in the minority in pakistan, but there is no group anywhere near them in size

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Pakistan

…in Pakistan, Muslims are divided into following schools: the Barelvis 48%, Deobandis 25%, Ithna Ashari 19%, Ahle Hadith 4%, Khojas 1%, Bohras 0.25%, and other smaller sects.

The amount of biddas and mazar bazi and outright shirk that so ubiqutous in Pakistan…pakistan cannot but be a majority barelwi country…

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

@Dua Zahra

Salaamz

So to my sunni bros and sisters I would like to ask you what happened at the place called Ghadeer. What did the Prophet of Islam P.B.U.H said when he held the the arm of Imam Ali A.S that who so evers **i’ am Mola , Ali is there Mola **and after that he said TodaY allah SWT has completed his deen. Diden’t a man refuse to obey this and a stone came from the sky and struck him on his head where he died instantly. and there was Hz Umer and Hz abu bakr standing too.and ofcourse they must have heard this.afterwould at the time of the prophet(P.B.U.H)Wafat they went from there and reached straight in **SAQIFAH BANI **SAA’DAA for the announcement of their khilafat and they came to Hz Ali(a.s)s house and asked for the Baiyet?and this happend in few days after Prophet(p.b.u.h)Wafat.then there was not a long time of what else do you want in your face evidence.

**Dua Zahra ** Could you enlighten what the word Mola means in Arabic and please not in Urdu.

[BOY-NICE]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

@CheGuvera

Really, so you are saying that he was literate and hence wrote, rather concocted the whole Quran all on his own....

Where did i say he 'wrote'? I am saying that he was the most exalted of Alah [swt] and thus he was given all the miracles which obviously inlude 'how to read & write' . Allah [swt] has always emphasized on the wisdom and knowledge he grants to his chosen ones, yet some people suggest that He deprived his last and most exalted knowledge of the capability to write & read!

[bao_bihari]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

Bachoon ---

thread is not about deobandi breliv wahaira waghaira-

Hutt hola rakhain :(

[BOY-NICE]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

@CheGuvera

So what other divine powers did they have...Could they bring dead back to life??/

Who? And where does this come from in the discussion ? Either you didnt bother to understand what i stated or you 'had to' post anything anyway.

Take a general example:

If there is a notorious robber in a society and suddenly he appears before you with a weapon, (if you have a thing called brain in your head) you will certainly understand that his intention is not to give you sweets, i.e. situation makes you to anticipate the point of view/course of action of the other person.

Cant make more easier than this!

[BOY-NICE]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

@Lajawab

Then what would you call Hz. Ali :razi:'s actions when during the signing of the treaty of Hudaibiya, the Holy Prophet :saw: told Hz. Ali :razi: to rub out his name, then Hz. Ali :razi: outrightly refused to do so?

At that time, the Holy Prophet :saw: was neither under the influence of death throes or under extreme influence of any sickness…Yet Hz. Ali :razi: refused yto obey him…Is there any foreknowledge as to why he would do that?

I always get ammused when people quickly refer to the episode of Hudaibiyah and Ali [sa] whenever the blasphemous attitute of some of the prominent ones at the ‘Tragedy of Thursday’ is mentioned, this is indrectly to produce an ‘excuse’ for the blasphemous act of the above ones while indirectly accepting the ‘tragedy’. But in reallity, there can be no excuse for the audacity those people had committed.

Coming to the point of Hudaibyah, i will keep it short in this manner:

1. Ali [as] being the successor of Holy Prophet [s] and the inheritor of His [s] knowledge, he exactly knew what to to, he didnt erase the word “Prophet of Allah” due to the fact that he was the one who was witness for the prophethood of Holy Prophet [s]. But that has some spritual aspects which literal minded people seldom take in.

2. Ali [as] didnt cast doubt on the mental health of Holy Prophet [s].

3. Last but not the least, the act didnt bother the Prophet of Allah [s] at all therefore it also shudnt bother those who want it to produce as an ‘excuse’ for the blasphemous act their beloved ones comitted at the “Tragedy of T
   Thursday”. Unlike the ‘Tragedy of Thurs’ did Holy Prophet [s] asked Ali [as] to get out of the room?

[Ma_Mooli]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

^ Good points. :k:

Guys, this thread is going off on so many tangents, please remain focused on the original query, Caliph Umar and the shia viewpoint.

[armughal]

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

@BOY-NICE

1. Ali [as] being the successor of Holy Prophet [s] and the inheritor of His [s] knowledge

and i usually laugh when ppl come up with the same wrong statement over and over again…

history knows who the successor of the prophet (saw) was and no man on earth was more suited for that post except the closest and most noble companion of the prophet (saw) and hence he was chosen by Allah, by His Own Will, to be the head of the muslims after the demise of the Prophet (saw)…

but some hard-headed ppl will still refute what Allah had written…