The name Umer according to Shia's??????

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

^ history is pretty much subjective. It all depends on what you believe is authentic and what you believe is made up. hence i dont think we can accuse ppl of hard headedness simply for believing in a different version, especially considering they dont consult the same sources for history in the first place.

As for the topic at hand the simple answer to the question is shias believe the right of khilafat was taken from Imam Ali (As) by force and hence do not hold the first three caliphs in high regard. That much is common knowledge.

At the time of Imam Ali (as) these names were quite common arab names, so to say Imam Ali named his children specifically after these personalities is mere conjecture to say the least. However that said, even at that time of political conflict, Imam Ali stayed as a close advisor to the previous caliphs for the sake of the ummah, hence despite the differences, there weren't at each other's throat as such. That came later on down the line, from the time of caliph Muawiyah and yazid and the ummayads/abbasids rulers that came later on.

It was then the persecution of the shias became widespread, to the extent that the Imams were under house arrest for most of their lives, a majority of them were murdered, and shias identifying themselves as such at the time were putting their life in jeopardy, (hence the reason taqiyyah came about).

That was the era the shia/sunni relationship drifted even futher apart and became more intense in their dislike and intolerance to each other. The affects of those time is pretty evident today, where the same mentality can be seen in the bombings of shia mosques in Pakistan and the calling of them kafir and in shias verbally attack the caliphs and refuse to name thier kids as such, for what they put the Imams and shias through in the past and to some extent the present.

Although, the situation has come along way since then, it will take a while to undo what the ummayads instigated back then, it has become so entrenched in the common mind set it will be long time before we realise that we've been fighting each other over nowt but our huge ego's.

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

Maddy i dunno who really did this survey and how, there is no mention of source in this article, hence i don’t beleive it to be true.

I have lived in Pakistan for 10 years and i have seen atleast in Punjab overwhelming majority is that of Deobandis. There are few brelvi mosques and few few brelvi people.

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

^ And we can make a poll here as well.

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

ma mooli, when we know that the real problem started from the umayyads then why hatred against the rightly guided khalifas????
even after acknowledging that Ali (ra) worked with them as an advisor....
Umar (ra) had Ali (ra) as a stand-in khalifa too when he went to jerusalem....

do u think Ali (ra) wud work with them if he considered them wrong????

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

like i said, under persecution, anything associated with the oppressors is disliked. Especially if you look at it this way, had the khilafat of the ummah been in the right hands from the start, the umayyad dynasty would not have come into power later on down the line, Yazid would not have been king, kerbala would not have occured, Imams would not hav been killed and so on.. the seemingly small conflict that occured after the Prophet (saw) death grew more intense and volatile the more it carried on over the years.

secondly, many of Imam Ali and bibi Fatima (as) feelings and thoughts at the time of conflict was pretty much evident (from both sources) and they point to the fact that although he was deeply unhappy about the whole thing, his shari responsibility as an Imam would not allow him to leave the ummah to find their own way. He knew he was still responsible as an Imam in the eyes of God and hence carried on helping the very folks that rejected him in the first place. It was his foresightedness of trying to keep the ummah together till his last moments that kept him in the role of an advisor during the early days of khilafa. That lasted until his own reign, which was marred by various rebellions and that too from muslims, in battles such as siffeen, jamal and the kharijis.

This carried on until Imam Ali was assasinated and caliph Muawiyah fought Imam Hassan for the khilafa. Imam Hassan (as) intially refused to hand it over, as it was his legal and shari right, but then for the same reason as his father agreed to a peace treaty which was broken by Muawiyah as he handed the khilafa over to his son yazid. When yazid came on to the scene, there was nothing of Islam left, hence when he forced Imam Hussain to give bayt, Imam refused and left madinah with his family, for Kufa. It was on the way, when Imam and his family were surrounded by Yazids men and martyred in kerbala.

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

the hadith is in arabic and the word MOLA is originaly an arabic word not the urdu.urdu itself created by different languages.and its openly mean intensive "leader "of the universe.hadith is like this MAN KUNTO MOLA FAHAZA ALI MOLA. AND there are so many hadith are like this such as ANA MADINA TUL ILM WA ALI UN BABOHA. which showes Hz Ali(a.s)greatness by the view of Prophacy and else more that the last Prophet(p.b.u.h)gave His beloved doughter to Him.not to anyone else.so this is not enough for you?

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

well i think you dnt need to have a fight between sunni and shias opinion anyway.becouse these kind of things does not concern with us.every one is responsible for there own deeds.if we do some good then its for our own profit and if we do bad then we will be responsible for that.so the matters between Hz Umer and Hz Ali(a.s)they themself knows better then us.so there is no need to have a fight against rules and regularities hope you would understand this and plz close this topic here.i'm not intresting anymore in it.Allah is watching His creation.and He never ever leave us alone.Thats All and Specialy thanx for Boy Nice and Ma mooly andall others who been partisipated in this topic.Thnx again.

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????


thats what Hz Ali(a.s) used to do Hz Umer corrections whenever he trying to do sumthing wrong.:D

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

Had you bothered to read and quote my full sentence , you would have not reached to the following conclusion which is quite pathetic indeed. How can you completely missed the “spritual aspect” of successorship I pointed out later in the sentence which you quoted!

Abu Bakar was chosen by Allah [swt] :confused: Hearing this for the first time believe me. So you also believe in the Islamic way i.e directly/divinely appointment of Imam? good. So where are the proofs that Abu Bakar was designated Imam/ Guide/Khalifatullah? I would certainly like to see.
(Remember I m not talking about being “the head of the state” which any tyrant can attain and Islamic history is full of such people EG Firawn rather I am talking about a guide/imam/khalifatullah appointed by Allah [swt]).

The same flawed logic has disturbed the non-Shia minds, they think “being in the power” or “heading the state” is the basic thing while they seldom care about the appointment of guides by Allah [swt], I dont know whether such people deem Muhammad [sws] as “Prophet” or not during his early days of prophethood because He become “the head of the state” years after he started the teachings of Islam, so according to such pathetic logic, Hazrat Muhamad [sws] was Prophet only after he got hold of reign :hoonh:

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

and i usually laugh when ppl come up with the same wrong statement over and over again. This is becuase they are literal minded and do not ponder into the facts in a way the Sunnah of Allah [swt] wants us to. Since they do not believe that Allah [swt] appoints His representatives on earth either in form of Prophets, Imams etc and the one who is the representative of Allah [swt] DO NOT care about a single person who is wrong, but take decisions in the interests of the humanity, the majority of mankind! Simple is that.

Take an example right from the Quran which is sent to take guidance from. Prophet Yusuf [as] was the representative of Allah [swt] on earth, but we see that He [as] not only aided the King who was a Kaafir in taking correct decisions in respect of provosions but He [as] himself did efforts and accepted a key position in his government. Why, for the Kaafir king? No, rather in the benefit of the mankind. It was in His [as] hands not to tell the correct Ta`beer of King's dream or not to take command of the provision business so that he could have easily destroyed the king and his unbelieving men.

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

mr you extremely need some rest for your brain its gone off.if u r mslim then should not call u a muslim, if not then you are illlitrate and extremely ignorent person like jews.dont want to say about anything u said.no use of it.:grumpy:

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

If something that u beleive Imam is chosenby Allah and is essentialfor peopletobeleive in his Imamat then show me one single incident …one single moment…when Rasoolullaaah saw took Ba’yah from people on Imamat of Ali ra.

Rasoolullah usedto takeBa’yah for his Risaalat, for Salaat for not indulgingin adultery, but he never ever took Ba’yahfor Imamat,is Imamat such an unimportant thing?

And plz come up with something better than Ghadeer to prove Imamat of Ali ra, if Rasoolullah saw wanted him to be his successor he cud simply have said so rather than leaving it to imagination of peopleas towhat Moula means.

And if it was clear to thousands and thousands of people that Moulameant succession then why …why…did the people not come to Ali ra that Rasoolullah saw has died and now you are his successor.

Even the 4 or 5 people who thought Ali ra shud have been the successor never…ever…cited Ghadeer as their reason for his case.

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

There is one thing very confusing in all this conflict…

Today, we see the Shias willing to kill and be killed out of their love for the Ahl-e-Bait for the importance that they hold in their lives…

Logically, if the Ahl-e-Bait were as important to Islam and Muslims as they are today to Shias, that means they would have been faar more important to Islam and Muslims in the earlier times…

Obviously, if the Muslims of that time fought against the enemies Islam, for the preservation of Islam, to uphold the tenets of Islam, fearlessly, unquestioningly and unequivocally then why was it that no Muslim stood beside with the Ahl-e-Bait ater the demise of the Holy prophet :saw:…

By all accounts, there were 124,000 Ashabas, yet we see no protest, no nominations no nothing from any Ashaba against the door being burnt down, Ali :razi: barricading himself inside the house, Bibi Fatima :razi: losing her child to be born…

Yet, during all of this great and mighty upheaval going on, the thing, which according to Shias claim was what the Holy Prophet (saw) left after himself other than the Quran, his Ahl-e-Bait, is strangely enough left stranded and alone…

Out of the 124,000 fearless and faithful believers, why do we not see any single Ashaba coming forward to stand up for what is considered to be the greatest wrong committed after the Holy Prophet :saw:?

If the Ahl-e-Bait were so important to Islam, why is there no support for them from any Ashaba? Did the 124,000 Ashaba become hypocrites in one day? Couldn’t be there a single Ashaba that stood up and said, “I will lay down my life yet I will not jeopardize the importance and succession of the Ahl-e-Bait because they are as important as the Quran…”

Were the entire Muslim population of that time in a great conspiracy? Did every Ashaba become a hypocrite?

I aksed this of a Shia one time, and he said that every Ashaba had gone to Hajj…That’s why there was no support…

I asked, then why hadn’t those who stayed behind didn’t go? And when the Holy Prophet :saw: was nearing the end of his time, let’s say those who were close to him stayed, then what happened after the Hajj was over? Didn’t the Ashaba come back after the Hajj? Wouldn;t they have heard of what happened? Wouldn’t Ali :razi: have stood up for what was to be a divine decree? And if he didn’t stood up then, then why did he stand up later at Jamal and Siffeen and caused the greatest calamity in Muslim history?

Where were the Shias after the demise of the Holy Prophet :saw:? Out of 124,000, there must be at least 10 Ashaba who must have supported Hz. Ali :razi: in his right to be successor seeing how the Holy Prophet (saw) left the Quran and Ahl-e-Bait for Muslims?

Is something amiss here or is there a reason to fill in the logic of these questions?

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

[quote]

And if he didn't stood up then, then why did he stand up later at Jamal and Siffeen and caused the greatest calamity in Muslim history?

[/quote]

could you explain this please....you dont recognize Ali's stand in the fitna as right?
it seems that you blame him for the grts calamity in muslim history

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

Today when I realize, I see that Allah [s] in Quran and Prophet [s] at Ghadeer used the most correct word at that time in order to keep the words save uptill Qayamah so that people who are even slightly unbiased can ponder in to the situations and context and (only) then come to the correct conclusion.

You talked about the importance of Ghadir, what more importance can there be other than the fact that after the revelation of the verse:

*** O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.***

Prophet [s] made the thousands of people stopped in a hot and humid weather, and made them listen the merits of Ali [as] and finally asking the people whether He[s] had more authority overthem than themsevles, and just after getting affirmative response from them he said “Whomsever I am Master Ali is master”. The revelation of the verse

This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.

further explains the importance of the event. You talked about bayah, after that people started congratulating Ali [as] on becming Maula, and most importantly, a couple of “renowned” people were first one to congratulate Ali [as] in the following words:

“Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the leader (Mawla) of all believing men and women”

Reading all the events step by step, let alone the words used by people to congratulate Ali [as] tells everything for those who are unbiased and use brain!

As for your question that why didnt people come to support Ali [as] then you need to ask this question to yourself or the school of thought you follow. The ‘Majority’ have always kept denying the status of previous representatives of Allah [swt].

As for your comment that people never cited the incident of Ghadir, then i dont have ref at hand but it was Ali himself who cited the event after the demise of Prophet [s] besides his other merts including the dividing Hell. Not only this but Ali [as] cited the Ghadir incident at overall 5 to 6 times in his life and he even cursed those who didnt give the testimony of the incident that again obviously included some “prominent” ones.

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

Its not today, that has always ben the case since it is wajib to love Ahulbayt [as] and love is not from tongue but from actions as well.

Yes, but again not for the majortiy since they did not adhere to Ahulbaut [as].

There were people who stood with Ahlulbayt [as] including people like Zubayr and Talha who later on sided with others and kept changing their sides time to time keeping their own apporunities in mind.

124000 ashaabs were not present in a single place rather they were scattered. And most importantly, as i said majority were not with Ahlulbayt [as] rather with those “who had achieved the command/reign” may be because they did not want to oppose those in power or they had same pathetic belief “that once a bayah is given, no one can oppose the imam/caliph no matter what are the circumstances” ; the belief which has always been like clothes of the people (opposed to the Shia) till today.

I have notcied this again and again so i want to point out that its not Shias who claim rather Sunnies also adhere to the same belief (if they do not pay heed to this or include someother things to it then thats a sifferent matter).

“I am leaving you two weighty things, if you follow them you will never go astray, they are the Qur’an and my Ahlul’bayt”.

  • *Sunan al-Tirmidhi, v5, page 662-663 *
  • *Jalaluddin Suyuti declares it Sahih in Al-Jami al-Saghir Volume 3 page 14. *
  • l-Hafidh Haythami, declares all subnarrators thuqat in Majma’uz-Zawaid Vol 9 p 165.
  • Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani authenticated the hadith in his book Matalib Aliya.
  • *etc *
    So i just wanted to remove ignorance that its a claim by Shias only. And your ‘claim’ that Ahulbayt [as] were left stranded alone, then first of all those who did not ahdere to Ahulbayt [as] did wrong to themsleves and opne cannot hold Allah [swt], Prophet [s] and his Ahulbayt [as] responsible for the same. If the querstion is to be asked and finger to be rasied than its the people who did not pay heed to the command of the Prophet [s].Secondly there has always been people (though not many in number) wityh Ahlulbayt [as], we do not find theuir names in the history for their stance due to the fact that they were not prominent ones, but those who were prominent and popular, their support for Ahlulbayt [as] can be seen in history like Salman Farsi [ra], Abu Zar Ghaffari [ra], Ammar Yasir [ra], Abu Ayub Ansari [ra] etc

Of course there was a big element of conspiracy, had those who “claimed to be the best firends of Prophet” waited for his funeral and had not ran away to grab the apportunity and sit on His seat, people would have never divided. Even if they had stepped down later on accpeting their sin/crime, even then things could have been setteled.

Since you are the only one who have heard this kinda of “story”, therefore i dont think its worthy enough for me to comment.

Yes, as i repied above.

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

Please don’t get me wrong…In the battle of Jamal and Siffeen I stand on the same platform as Imam Shafiee :rehm:…That both parties had their reasons and both were right…

What I am saying is, why would Ali :razi: choose to remain quiet upon the ascension of the three previous Khulafa-e-Rashideen despite it being (according to Shia) wrong…WHy would he choose to remain quiet over the copy of the Quran issue…Why would he choose to remain quiet over the burnoing of the door issue…Why would he choose to remain quiet over the (according to Shias) ‘Tragedy of Thursday’ issue…

Yet, he would fight over the issue of going after Usman :razi:'s assasins?

He was a man of principles and and the greatest principles at that (As a Sunni, I have no doubt)…

Yet, no word from his about the divine decree…No sermon from him which would state how his Khilafa had been taken from him which was divine decree…

Understand what I am trying to say here…

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

First of i would like to comment on the stance based on duplicity, i.e both the parties; oppressed and oppressors, fitna makers and peace revivers were RIGHT and were “RA” just because they were close to Prophet [s]. One cannot sail while putting one leg in a boat and 2nd in another boat. Either sailor have to completely chose the first boat or the other one. But we cannot expect this from those who are just confused from all sides and cannot decide the path of truth. And this is the very thing which has caused differences among dfferent schools, mainly the two.

Coming to the second and most important point, that it was not Ali [as] who was eager to fight, rather it was his opponents at all places Jamal, Siffeen etc to jsut cudnt take in to see Ali [as] running the state. On the contrary Ali [as] did his best to avoid bloodshed and did efforts for the same till the last minute piroir to war. So you cannot say that it was Ali [as] who remained quite earlier and then suddenly came into the battle field, rather it was His opponents who put him into such siutation. No one can absolve the opponents of Ali [as] from the sin they have committed of creating fitna which in the end resulted in the deadbodies of hundereds or thousands of muslims.
I dont know where the ‘principles’ of ‘follwing sahabah’ or ‘follwing caliph and not opposing him’ vanishes when it comes to those who opposed to their fourth caliph! Now the both parites become “RA” and “right” but if someone fight or agitate against anyther caliph then its “fitna”.

As for your last objection:

Letsee check the following sermon (No. 3):

Beware! By Allah the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)** dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.**

Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death). I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was pricking in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself…"

Re: The name Umer according to Shia’s???

the concept of imamat can stay in the fantasies of the shiaas as far as i am concerned…
i dont believe in such things…

when i say ‘chosen by Allah’ i mean that it was Allah’s Will that He let the best man among the muslims to be their leader after the Prophet (saw) cuz this is the last religion hence to believe that it went wrong from the word “go” is really pathetic…
hence Allah destined abu bakar (ra) to be the leader who showed the best leadership capabilities in handling different difficult situations very ably…

had it not been for abu bakar (ra) the ummah wud have been split right after the death of the prophet (saw)…

Re: The name Umer according to Shia's??????

Hero of one nation is the villian of another.