My dear brother AllShah, please take it easy. Being a Wahabi doesn't restrict me from
seeking unity amongst all Muslims. My intention is to get to the root of fallacies and conjured up facts, and obviously the shaddow of Ali's name on the moon is one those things.
[This message has been edited by Abdullah k (edited September 22, 2000).]
A11Shah…Bhai…Dost…I have a very limited knowledge of islam (Sorry to say)…I just want to ask one question…simple yes/no question…just circle yes or no…aand Baykhatr can you do that too please?? and Abdullah k you too please… yes or No The question is
Do you think that Quran Has been Altered by ** ANYONE ** and it is not in its original form??? YES/NO…
Please dont give any arguments. just yes or no…actually everyone…Can everyone give the answer in Yes/No…lets see what people think. Guys dont argue on it…its a simple discrete question.
ME ME ME!!!
Hey…can anyone tell me what clinton did with the Cigar???
www.fuee.com
[This message has been edited by who—me (edited September 22, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 22, 2000).]
I'ld like to know your point of view first?
The holy Qur'an is UN-ALTERED. Each ayat is in its original form. There is ONLY one book of Allah (swt).
It will be protected till the Day of Judgement as guaranteed by Allah (swt).
Is this clear enough for you.
Wa Salam
a11shah, here's your warning, if you continue posting messages containing personal attacks geared towards members of gupshup, i'm going to delete them.
I'm not going to tolerate any mudslinging, personal attacks,etc, in this forum. Any posts containing material that can in the least way be equated with disrespect towards any other religion, religious figure or fellow member will be deleted.
a11shah...>>I challenge you to bring forth any proofs stating that any Shia scholar has stated that the Qur'an is in-complete.
and who--me...>>aand Baykhatr can you do that too please??<<
Dear a11shah! Calm down please. The proofs have been provided in my last post. I have a good friend of mine here who is shia and she lent me the book published in Pakistan -'Tuhfat ul awaam ul maqbool'- It state clearly that sunni Muslims have deleted the aya of walayat. The translation is as follows:
"O'you who believe, believe in the prophet and the wali, the two who we sent to guide you to the straight path. A prophet and wlai who are of eachother, and celebrate the praise of your Lord, and Ali is among the witnesses."
The same book further encourage all believers to curse Syedna Abu Bakr and Syedna Umar for forgiveness of sins. This verdict or fatwa is signed by shia scholars and clergy among them Khomeini and Shariat Madari.
It is impossible that any shia does not have this book in his household. And if one says he does't know anything about, he is taking heed of Taqiyyah.
But all shia participants to this discussion, please calm down and stay on the course, instead of personal attacks.
This is surprising, sad, bad for anyone to witness who might have even a little bit of sensibility and integrity for religion. What is the world coming to. All I can say is surely Qayamah (day of judgement) must be approaching!
Humble, when you posted the thread in the "Image gallery" forum, I remember Mr. [N] and Mr. Degas were among the first to compliment on it. And their comments were the ones which ignited some members, who in return started questioning the validity of Quran and even some very respected figures of Islam. (Astaghfirullah). Not trying to defend anyone here, but I went back and read both of their responses and it is clear that they were not trying to point fingers at you or corner a certain sect or question anyone's beliefs. They simply said, that though miracles do happen, Islam is a religion of practice. We as muslims are suppose to focus more upon strictly reading the Quran and Sunnah and applying it in day-to-day life. As this is a discussion forum, and the whole idea is to exchange views on issues which surround our every day lives, I think the better approach is to listen to everyone's ideas with an open heart and mind. If someone is not practicing mudslinging, libering or slandering there is no need for anyone else to provoke that either.
Secondly, I can not come 'round expressing how I feel when I read posts like the one which was written a couple of days ago, targeting Hazrat Ayesha's {PBUH} character. I mean come on! For God's sake she was one of the Umhatul Momineen. (Mother of momins). For the life of me, I fail to understand why and how anyone can question the validity of the character of one's own mother? Is there no integrity and respect left in muslim men of today?
Before doing that, it would have been a lot wiser for the initiator of that thread and those who agreed with him/her to read the true account of what exactly had happened back then. And the role of Munafiqeens in that incident. Perhaps, if we use aqal, one of the most beautiful things made by Allah SWT we would be a lot better off. But Alas! Shaitan has a stronger hold on some. (Astaghfirullah).
Hazrat Ali (PBUH) was a cousin to Prophet Muhammad SAW, his son-in-law and the last Imam. And that's precisely who he was nothing more, nothing less. He was another of the great sahabas. To us as muslims, Hazrat Ali (PBUH), Hazrat Abu Bakr (PBUH), Hazrat Umer (PBUH), Hazrat Usman (PBUH), Hazrat Zubair (PBUH), Hazrat Abu Huraira (PBUH), Hazrat Hamza (PBUH), Hazrat Sufyaan (PBUH) etc..etc.. No matter what they did, where they come from, how they entered the circle of Islam, regardless of all that, the only thing which should matter the most to us is that they were companions of Prophet Muhammad SAW. Folks who stood by him through thick and thin. Heck, if the men of today had been there back then instead of these Sahabas, it's a scary thought where Islam would have headed. These sahabas did a fine job...no I take that back..fine is not the word. The excellency of their work and the level of their loyalty to Prophet Muhammad SAW can not be expressed in words. Who are we, us who can't even follow Allah's orders, to judge the finest of His men or to rank them? To us they should be all equal. No more respect for one, no less for the other. If some of them even had any disputes amongst themselves that is a matter which lies between them and Allah SWT.
The Kalima is La Illaha Illal lah Muhammad ur Rasool Allah. (There is no God but Allah and Muhammad SAW is his messenger). There can not be any addition to it or subtraction from it. The reason Christians are considered Mushrikeens is because the give Jesus a supernatural rank. He was nothing more than a Prophet and that's what we accept him as. It's better to take humans AS humans and not try to give them a rank higher than the one prescribed by Allah SWT. Had He wanted Hazrat Ali PBUH to be any thing more than a Sahabi or an Caliph, the Al-Mighty would have done so.
I hope u all can stop this constant bickering and use aqal. Think and Ponder. Even Hazrat Abrahim PBUH recognized Allah through his it. If he can use it to think and ponder so can we. Far more significant than questioning and judging the characters, morals and ethics of Sahabas, Sahabiyaats and Umhatul Momineens is for us to try to try to acquire more knowledge. Knowledge from no other source than Quran and Sunnah. And learn to follow the orders of Allah SWT in the form that they are delivered. Instead of trying to twist them to fit and suit our own needs and ease. If we start doing that, there would be no difference between us muslims and believers of other religions. Cuz that was the same thing they did and ended up facing Qayher e Ilahi.
rare pearl. i wish i could have power to write like you.
a fitting reply... i don't think anyone can argue that...
but then again, i won't be surprised if someone did..
Rarediamonds;
On the face of it, yr message seems reasonable. But you conveniently try to avoid trying to get to the truth.
That being, yr religion is based at much on what devious people like Aisha comments on the prophet's sunnah as it is on the Qur'an.
Getting to the truth is wajib on every muslim's part but sunnis will avoid it with comments like "arguing is shaitan's handiwork, etc...".
No one is arguing - but try using yr common sense. No, it is not clear to me why Aisha being the prophet's wife should be considered good without considering her past performance.
Baktry - you can bet I will stay on course to deal with wahabis like u. I state again, shias believe in the complete infallability to the Qur'an. This holy book is in the same form as the messages that the holy apostle received.
It was recited and taught to the ummat by the 12 holy imams in this form. If anyone says otherwise, he is a kafir.
By the way, do try and look at yr sahih bukhari where Aisha and Umar explicitly state that huge portions of the "Verse on stoning" and others are missing from the Qur'an.
Now, do u believe that the qur'an is in-complete ? I don't think so - so don't blame such bs acusations on the Shias - followers of ahl-bait.
A11Shah, you are loosing your credibility by not posting any Ayyahs which awards Ali the status of a Caliph. There is no mentioning of 11 Imams which followed Ali, in the holy Quran. If you believe in Quran and Sunnah, then start laying out the facts.
**
My request (in words of Girl from quresh, a warning because she really likesz to use that word) to baykhatry, and outlaw, If you have any comments relate to the subject, then post, otherwise be quite. Clear enough!
Now, you two, go back to bed!
**
Humble
--My point is to stop asking Ali for help, because he was just an ordinary human like of us.
--Start following Quran and Sunnah.
--Do not account these pictures as any signs of Allah.
Posted by a1Shah:
Rarediamonds;
On the face of it, yr message seems reasonable. But you conveniently try to avoid trying to get to the truth.
Reply:
Truth is truth. What is truth? Truth is what lies in Quran and Hadiths. Truth is the command and word of Allah SWT. Truth is the life Hazrat Muhammad SAW lived. Truth is the loyalty, love, sincerity, and support Sahabas had for Prophet Muhammad SAW. THAT is truth.
Posted by a1Shah:
That being, yr religion is based at much on what devious people like Aisha comments on the prophet's sunnah as it is on the Qur'an.
Reply:
From day 1 since Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH) opened her eyes into this world, all she saw was Islam. And parents who were among the first...I repeat among the first to accept Islam. That was a big sacrifice her parents had made for Islam. She had knowledge of Islam from day 1, ever since she had been growing up. She had more knowledge of deen than any female before or after her. One fourth of Islamic law, rules and regulations comes from the knowledge which was transferred to Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH) from Prophet Muhammad SAW. She lived for 47 years as a widow. And she has taught the cream of the crop of Islam. Among her students were:
Hazrat Abu Huraira, Hazrat Abu Moosa Ashari, Hazrat Abdullah bin Abbas, Hazrat Abdullah bin Umer, Hazrat Umro bin al Aas, Hazrat Abdullah bin Zubair, Hazrat Bareerah, Urwa Bin Zubair, Qasim bin Muhammad bin Abi Bakr, Abu Salma bin Abdul Rahman, Masrooq bin Ajda'aa, Muazah binte Abdullah Al Adwiya, Safiya binte Sheeba, Umrah binte Abdul Rahman, Ayesha binte Talha, Imam Nak'ayee.
You disregard the hadiths which come from Abu Hurairah (PBUH)(Astaghfirullah), can u disregard the hadiths which came from Hazrat Abdullah bin Abbas (PBUH)? Can u deny all of these 18 people, who were among the cream of the crop, getting their Islamic knowledge from Hazrat Ayesha? Everything she had been taught by Prophet Muhammad SAW?
Posted by a1Shah:
Getting to the truth is wajib on every muslim's part but sunnis will avoid it with comments like "arguing is shaitan's handiwork, etc...".
Reply:
Arguing for the sake of arguing without any knowledge or anything valid and significant to back up one's point is nothing but "Shaitan's doing."
Posted by a1Shah:
No one is arguing - but try using yr common sense. No, it is not clear to me why Aisha being the prophet's wife should be considered good without considering her past performance.
Reply:
You are calling Hazrat Ayesha Devious? (Nauzobillah!) You are calling that woman devious, who was cleared up in Quran and Quran defended the purity of her character, when munafiqeens were throwing mud at her? A woman, who used to be present when Prophet Muhammad SAW used to get the revealations? A woman, whose lap housed the Prophet SAW's head in the last moments of his life? A woman whose "hujra" became the last home of the Prophet SAW (his grave)? A woman, because of whom Allah SWT taught muslims to do "tayamum" in the absence of water? You are questioning and name calling the character of that woman? What are you trying to show? That the wives of the Holy Prophet SAW had a loose character? Or that they were liers? (Astaghfirullah!) Who do u end up criticizing? Are you out of your head? You are putting the character of Prophet SAW at stake as well. You show your overflowing love for ahl e bait. I will tell you one thing. Was Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH) not a member of Prophet Muhammad SAW's Ahl e Bait? Once He called one of his sahabas, Hazrat Salman Farsi as a member of his (Prophet Muhammad SAW's) ahl e bait. Can u deny that? What type of religion do u have, where u adopt one part and leave the other one out. Shias hold great respect for Hazrat Fatima (PBUH), Hazrat Ali (PBUH), their kids. We hold the same respect for them that we hold for Umhatul Momineens as well. Knowing that you all (shias) care about nothing and no one else other than Hazrat Fatima PBUH, Hazrat Ali PBUH, their kids PBUT, have u ever seen a Sunni questioning their character or giving one more respect over the other? No you must NOT have. Cuz we respect all Sahabas, sahabiyaats, and their decendants in the same way. Don't you sit here sir and try to tell me that you care so much for ahl e bait. What kind of respect you have for the Prophet SAW, that you respect his daughter and her family, and show absolutely disgrace for his wives and companions and put the character of Prophet SAW at stake! Maybe some of us are wahabis. And brother we are damn proud of it too! Cuz we don't go around disgracing anyone and yes I repeat *ANYONE * related to the Prophet SAW. What are you trying to prove, that the Prophet SAW was married to and acquainted with people who are devious according to people like you? Don't follow literature written by so called mullahs or Imams. Only read Quran and Sunnah and then use your aqal. Think and Ponder. You have so much pain for the shahadat of Hazrat Ali...don't u feel any remore for that of Hazrat Umer's or Hazrat Usman's? What kind of love you have for Ahl e Bait? Cuz these folks were on the top of the list of Ahl e Bait as well. Hazrat Umer was Prophet SAW's father in law, and Hazrat Usman was Prophet SAW's son in law. Two of Hazrat Fatima's (PBUH) real sisters had been married to Hazrat Usman. What kind of love you have for ahl e bait. Favoring one and feeling no pain or hurt for another? We feel the same pain at the loss of Hazrat Ali PBUH, that we feel for Hazrat Umer PBUH, and Hazrat Usman PBUH. In the eyes of sunnis (rather I should use Wahabis) all of 'em are same. We try to follow them instead of analyzing their character and morals and buying more hell time for ourselves. (Astaghfirullah)
You have absolutely the wrong definition of Ahl e bait. That's where the problem lies.
In addition to all of the questions above, if Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH) is devious (Astaghfirullah), why did Allah SWT give her the rank of an Umhatul Momineen? Why was the purity of her character defended in the Quran? If she was quoting wrong Hadiths (Nauzobillah) wouldn't Allah have known, that she would provide false hadiths and wrong knowledge of deen to the rest of the Ummah after Prophet SAW? Thinking twice before saying anything is a healthy habit. Saves you not only the pain of typing extra but also might reduce the punishment which may come for making such statements and tohmat in the life hereafter.
Affifa aurtoon (khawateen aur larkiyoon) par tohmat lagana gunah e kabeera main say hai.
And Prophet Muhammad SAW kept Hazrat Ayesha PBUH dearest to his heart. He once prayed, "Ya Allah, I am equal with all of my wives, but I can not control my heart, which keeps Ayesha the dearest." And we know that Hazrat Fatima (PBUH) will be the leader of all the muslim ladies in Jannah on the day of judgement. So stop arguing and stop the bickering and mudslinging.
[quote]
Originally posted by Abdullah k:
*--My point is to stop asking Ali for help, because he was just an ordinary human like of us.
--Start following Quran and Sunnah.
--Do not account these pictures as any signs of Allah. *
[/quote]
**
Mr. Outlaw or abdullah or whatever,
Why do you keep imposing your ideas on others? I never ask you to believe anything, therefore you cannot force me to believe on anything.
By the way, it is my firm belief that one should only asks Allah for help and thats all, though one can use waseela but the focus is always zat-e-ilahi (Allah).
Secxondly, I follow Quran and sunnah more than you, i guess. The only difference is I dont show off like you do, or I dont try to impose my ideas on others like you do. The true lutf (treasure) of ibbadat (prayers) is when its just me and Allah. I dont need to write a million times here what I do and what I dont do.
These miracles are signs of Allah. Only because you dont wanna believe does not make them invalid. The miracles and having iman in tghem is a part of Islamic faith. As simple.
The name Ali can be seen in arabic and most of my arabic friends from Jordan confirmed them. Clear enough!
Keep believing what you want to believe, because there is no force in islam. Leave the rest of us with the correct iman. This is my last reply to you, therefore need not to reply and start acting as a moderator now.
**
*Come on, get back to work!
Humble
Sister Rare,
Your posts in the past had been a valuable contribution and I thank you for all that. Lets not discuss Hazrat Ayesha here because this is not the discussion of thread. Br. Alishah and sister rare, please open another thread if you want.
Thanks,
Humble
Brother Humble,
This is not the issue of Hazrat Ayesha (PBUH) only. If someone had made such disgraceful comments about Hazrat Fatima (PBUH) or any of the other Islamic figures, I would have stood up for the integrity and respect I have for Islam and these great figures.
My first post earlier this morning at 10:30 a.m. was a general one regarding the issues Mr. [N] and Mr. Degas had touched, which were so greatly misunderstood by some of the readers. Sometimes one's got to think upon what one has read. And only then after fully comprehending another's point should one answer. And that is the wise thing to do rather than just setting off after others. As u can see, the difference between my post and that of Mr. a1Shah's is crystal clear. I have not told any juicy story. All that I have stated does not come from any theologians either. It comes straightly from Quran and Sunnah.
[This message has been edited by Rarediamonds & Gold (edited September 22, 2000).]
Janu, Now here's your warning, when you are talking to and/or about religions, religious figures, and as in this case other members of gupshup. Please do so with courtesy and respect.
[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 24, 2000).]
I am sorry to see all this bickering in our supposed ummah..
I have only one question to ask.. and i would like everyone who is posting here to sit back relax and think about it with a level head before posting a reply..
Who was the only person in whose imamat the prophet used to offer his prayers..
If that is not a sign of the preffered succesor I don't know what is..
It is not that it occured at one time.. but many times in the last year of prophets life..
If Ali was supposed to be the one to take leadership of the ummah.. would it not be him who would be leading the prayers..
As this matter is laid to rest.. why don't we try to post constructive messages..
If I was a non-muslim looking on this section I would have a very weak view of the muslim ummah..
BZ
That's not exactly what took place in the history, Black-Zero. You and I both know who were the subsequent successors to Mohammad(PBUH).