The Khilafah is the only hope for the muslims...

Khilafah1422 · April 17, 2003, 10:44pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Liberator: *
Salaam i have a few simple points to make to sister aafreen,

Hizb Ut tahrir unlike Mpac does not partkae in the politics of a Kuffar conutry, because for that exact reason, the system if Kuffar and derived from the mind of man. Now why shoudl muslims give authroity to such a system over the system that allah swt has created for us. So that we may secure some simple benefits for ourselves to make our lives a little easier by compromising our Islam. I ask you this sister did the beloved prophet of Islam muhammad peace be be upon him compromise Islam? No there are face hadith in which refrences to the moon and sun are made where rasoolullah saw said he will nto compromise. Another example is when the prophet peace be upon him use to go to seek the support, and he offered himself to tribes, one tribe said when the prophet peace be upon him departs that they be given authority, did the prophet peace be upon him compromise NO.Take the example of taaifh when again He (saw) went to seek the support and it is narrated He (saw) was stoned so badly that his shoes were full of blood did he compromise no !

Now we can look at ure method to save the muslims, lobby ure MP, lobby Tony Blair, the Un, WHICH ONT HE WHOLE IS THAT WE can change the system by workign within the system. I ask you this a system dominated by kuffar, established byt he kuffar to meet their needs can never be Islamic. Lets look at the war on Iraq, you tried ure best and may allah swt grant you sucess for those efforts , but look at it from reality asking the kuffar to go against their interest is like askign a fish to breathe out of water. So asking Tony Blair not to attack Iraq and believing by sending letters he will listen is extradoniary. That a kuffar will have islamic interests at heart. that he will care for the interests of the muslims over the benefits he can receive by attacking a defenceless country. a very releavant exampel is this a brother went to ask Khalid mahmood an Mp for B'ham to resign because of the ear on Iraq and the hypocriscy of the government and he owed it to the muslims. His reply mashallah was amazing he said only 10% of my constituents are muslim. Now if this is the response of a muslim how will the kuffar qho don't even hold on to the aqeedah of Islam respond.

Also sister i ask you is it allowed to give the authoiryt to the kuffar over the muslims. Ask them to become judge and jury in the affiars of the muslims, because i can assure you from Islam it is haram

wasalaam
[/QUOTE]

Assalamo alaikum brother

You made some really good points and i would like to add to them.

In fact khalid mahmood joined the labour party with the aim of securing the interests of the muslims in the UK and recently when he was asked to resign due to the war on iraq, hes response was "I am not for Islam but I am for the labour party". So it is visible that having any impact upon the policies of the governement is impossible because it clashes with thier interests. It is known that a large portion of the British public were against this war and a large number of MP's within the labour party were against this but despite all the opposition the war continued even without the approval of the colonialist tool, the UN.

Another good example is before george bush came into power he promised that he would support the kyoto protocol, which is an agreement to reduce greenhouse gases but when he became president, that treaty was thrown in the bin because it would mean that the industries would have problems because they would have to develop new ways in functioning which would be a financial burden upon the industrialists and since it is these industrialists who supported Bush in his campaign to become president, they are now in a position to influence the Bush regime because its payback time.

Not only that but if one was to study history he would see that political change always came from outside the system and not from within and this is because the system would punish those who seek to undermine it.

So it is the height of political naivete to have hope in a system which aims at protecting the interests of the capitalists and not only that but Allah (swt) said with regards to the non muslims having authority over us, he said " And never will Allah allow the disbelievers to have authority over the believers".

So when you enter into the political system, although you do it for the sake of Allah, you give the kufaar an authority over you as you except them as being your leaders and you also except thier political system.

Allah(swt) rebuked the people who ruled by other than what he revealed, he said " And those who do not rule by what Allah has revealed are of the disbelievers".

Hence it is clear that the method for change must be outlined by the shariah and even if we see other methods which we might think are more effective, they must be rejected for the Prophet (saw) rejected to be the ruler of Quraish because they put a condition on him which was that he rules by Islam for a year and then by non islam and then whatever the people want will be established.

wa salaam

ak47 · April 18, 2003, 3:22am

Aafreen

The question is give simple evidence that it is allowed from islam to partake in non islamic politics i.e the parliment system of UK.

The anti hizb websites you posted is not evidence it is simply slander of the worst kind. One comment from this great evidence you have provided is saying the group hizb ut tahrir is supporting the Occupying israeli state

I am not here to defend any group that is not my job i want evidence to say working within non islamic politcis is permissble from islam.

So if you can provide me with this evidence then you will refute the people arguing against partaking in non islamic politics very easy.

Khilafah1422 · April 18, 2003, 11:19pm

I back Ak47 on this

aravamudhan · April 19, 2003, 4:29pm

All this deep discussion of Islamhood and Khailafat and Ummah is fine and dandy. How about some truth first? Start with tolerance towards other religions as Islam itself is supposed to preach.

AvgAmericanGirl · April 19, 2003, 5:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Khilafah is the only hope for the muslims...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

Of course you disagree, you are HT member. :D

lemme post your own statement..

*"The solutions currently being provided number many but only one agrees with her deen and earns the pleasure of Allah(swt)." *

and the various options u had..

1) To participate in the western countries and influence the MP's in order to change the foreign policy.

yeah who cares what they say, I mean we dont need to do jack, as soon as khilafah is established we will make a real tall wall around or borders and not deal with anyone outside, not for trade not for education, not for anything, why even bother with these people.

I mean yes we i.e. HT did ask people to write to MPs and all, but we ourselves did not..we stand by our principles that we dont need to do anything to influence any western country's policy..I mean yeah we have these conferences (in western countries) and we yipyap about this and that, u know down with this down with that type of stuff, but we dont really care.

I dont even know why we are living here in the west..okay HT..left right left right...lets pack up and go...chop chop...hurry up.

*2) To send money *

yeah, what would money do, we dont need to set up schools, provide better health care and social service facilties. Money does nothing, as a matter of fact lest also scrape zakat, useless command by Allah, only he knows wy he told us we need to pay zakat. Money solves nothing, the day the khilafah magically appearts, everyone will become literate just by breathing the air in khliafah, all of a sudden we will be self sufficient, industrial power, we dont need to invest in people or projects to make that happen maaaan. it will happen right away.

*3) To make dua - *

yep yep. lets not make duaa, because Allah is helpless, if we dont distribute flyers at the local masjid, and wait for some "ansaar" to come around and offer us a launchigngpad for khilafah nothing will happen. I meanyes our original ansars to be i.e. taleban were booted out but more ansaar will come around..eh? why even ask Allah, he has never told us to pray to him for what we want..praying is useless..we dont need Allah's help or will, we can do it on our own..right??

4) To perfect our iman and that this will effect the situation in Iraq

Imaaan shimaaan, who cares about Imaaan, we dont care about imaaan, as long as we have one big piece of land run by us (yeah not be the ppl, but we will choose among ourselves who is fit to lead since ppl cant really choose wisely) I mean the original caliphate was corrupted and diseased due to lack of imaan by people anyways, but we are better, we can make it work even if people dont have an ounce of imaaan...we kewl like dat.

5) To reestablish the Khilafah and unify the muslim lands.

yep..everytime we distribute a flyer the odds of the khilafah being created magicaly the next day increase. btw we wont do anything in teh countries we actually want the governments to reform..i.e. middle east, but we will pass flyers to expats overseas. the plan has been working liek clockwork for 50 years..we rock baby!!!
[/QUOTE]

You got your own Khilafah. But people Khilafah is not business or politics? is it?

Get your people together.

Get your Khilafah.

You got it.

Do it.

Not gona make a difference in a global economy, unless you use the oil crutch..and if you do? thats an act of war on western countries.

Don't take me the wrong way please.

but one can use oil as a weapon as much as highly souped up weapons.

Get you Khilafah.

Make the 26 states of the middle east a country.
(or however many there are)

Will take pulling together. Getting Along. Appreciating each other. Respecting one another. And helping each other.

Looking out for each other.
Everybody. Not just some.

And voting for one guy to run the whole thing.
Someone nice and kind. Not a bomber or a killer.

Takes respect for each other.

Khilafah1422 · April 21, 2003, 7:02pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aravamudhan: *
All this deep discussion of Islamhood and Khailafat and Ummah is fine and dandy. How about some truth first? Start with tolerance towards other religions as Islam itself is supposed to preach.
[/QUOTE]

so what needs to be tolerated?

bao_bihari · April 22, 2003, 2:19am

assalam olikum
isnt it that khilfah will again be established when mehdi arrives.......we should still try to establish khilafah ...but i think i will not be established until mehdi arrives....just a thought correct me if i am wrong.......
any way .....muslim ulemas are trying to establish khilafah from the time it collapsed in turkey.......inshaalh it will be established soon.....
note.....khilfah14222........i think i know u....arent u that sik man from islamabad CFMS..?
SALAM

Imdad_Ali · April 22, 2003, 3:36am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khilafah1422: *

so what needs to be tolerated?
[/QUOTE]
Lets start with tolerating Shias in Pakistan. We can move to harder objectives from here.

clubber_lang · April 22, 2003, 2:15pm

Salaam

for once the discussion hasnt got out of hand and lets keep it that way. So all those ppl with silly remarks n just trying take da mick, please dont

A question for sis aafreen

Lets look at lobbying uk govt from reality aspect. Reason why people lobby govts because they think that they can influence govts foreign policy..now the question is:** can normal average ppl influence govts foreign policy especailly when it goes against the "national" govt intrest?**

For example:

(Former)UK Foreign Secretary Robin Cook said following regards to foreign policy:

"The right to enjoy our freedoms comes with the obligation to support the human rights of others.”

After the ink had barely dried on these changes to UK foreign policy, Cook was being asked to justify how these promises matched up to Hawk Jet sales to Indonesia and the red carpet treatment accorded to the butcher of Chechnya – Putin - to Britain.

Malcolm Rifkind, the former Foreign Secretary highlighted that the reality of foreign policy decision-making is decided by national interest despite Cook’s claims to the contrary:

"What the foreign secretary is saying is that when it is in our national interests, we will pursue a policy based on ethical considerations. When it's not practical no-one should expect us to…that's not dramatically different from what all previous governments of all parties have done over the years."

Reality is foreign policy is decided bu multi-nationals and have done so for Capitalist nations for centuries

Khilafah1422 · April 22, 2003, 4:45pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
assalam olikum
isnt it that khilfah will again be established when mehdi arrives.......we should still try to establish khilafah ...but i think i will not be established until mehdi arrives....just a thought correct me if i am wrong.......
any way .....muslim ulemas are trying to establish khilafah from the time it collapsed in turkey.......inshaalh it will be established soon.....
note.....khilfah14222........i think i know u....arent u that sik man from islamabad CFMS..?
SALAM
[/QUOTE]

Assalamo alaikum

I am glad you raised this point about Imam Mehdi because this view that we need to wait for him is held by many people.

I think it is necsessary to highlight the misunderstanding that people hold from an Islamic perspective.

The Prophet(saw) made many prophecies regarding the future events that will take place in front of his sahabah (ra). One of them being that there will be an imam who will take the leadership of the Khilafah and bring justice to the world. The Prophet also foretold the establishment of the islamic state by a group of muslims who will originate from Al-Quds.

These ahadith are telling us information and they are not commanding us to wait for these events to occur. So there is no command from Allah (swt) or his messenger (saw) to take the back seat and wait for events to happen but rather these ahadith are informative.

further on, during the time of the Prophet he foretold many victories that will occur in the battles that will take place. I think victory was foretold regarding the battle of Badr. This information that the sahabah had in no way effected the effort that they contributed but rather it was an encouragement for them to work harder to achieve the victory.

Further more, there are many other ayahs and ahadith that oblige the muslims to bring an islamic state into existence and appoint the khalifah and also to change the evil that exists in society. So all of these are commands from Allah (swt) and if they are not fulfilled the people will be punished because they neglected an important fard.

One of the hadith of the Prophet (saw) is:

"wa man mata wa laisa fee 'unoqihee bayah, maata meetaatan jahiliyya"
"and whosoever dies without a bayah(to a khalifah) on his neck, dies the death of jahiliyya"
(sahih muslim)
So the Prophet rebuked the person who dies whilst he/she had no oath of allegiance to an imam (leader) and he died in that state.

The only way this obligation can be fulfilled is when the khalifah is brought into existence and hence it requires from us to work to establish the Islamic state by which a khalifah can be appointed.

So waiting for the arrival of imam mehdi and neglecting to establish the Islamic state will cause us to fall into sin as it would be ignoring Allah(saw)'s command.

So the hadith which tell us that a change will occur in the Islamic lands should encourage us to be the ones who the Prophet talked about and earn the reward on the hereafter.

Salaam

lunaticCalm · April 22, 2003, 5:28pm

For the person making the comment about musharaf. If Musharaf hadnt sided with US on afghanistan, Pakistan would have just been another Nepal by now, i.e. we would have lost control of all our nuclear weapons, ceded our soverignty to India, and god knows what else might have happened.
Restablishment of Khilafah. I am up for it, but not without education of the masses. Infact it will not come into existance until we are able to make mature decisions. I was reading this article on Jang some time back in which before the US attack on afghanistan, some molvi urged his students to pratice swimming in the kabul river, so when the US ships come near the coast, they could swim and attack it. With this level of stupidity you cant expect much from back home. I think it’s up to the expatriates studying here to go back and do something. We have to fight fire with fire. If they can send B52s to bomb us, then there is no reason why we cant make f-16s to defend ourselves. During the battles at the time of the Prophet (PBUH), the sahabah made swords in preperation. They dint sit around and started praying for Allah to grant them voctory. This is not to say that prayers arent necessasy, but prayers without effort arent going to help much.

Kaleem · April 22, 2003, 6:06pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Lets start with tolerating Shias in Pakistan. We can move to harder objectives from here.
[/QUOTE]

Is that the only thing we should be tolerant of? or Is it based on personal experience? Maybe its a tow way street. Are Shias tolerant of other sects of Islam?

Khilafah1422 · April 22, 2003, 11:01pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by lunaticCalm: *
For the person making the comment about musharaf. If Musharaf hadnt sided with US on afghanistan, Pakistan would have just been another Nepal by now, i.e. we would have lost control of all our nuclear weapons, ceded our soverignty to India, and god knows what else might have happened.
Restablishment of Khilafah. I am up for it, but not without education of the masses. Infact it will not come into existance until we are able to make mature decisions. I was reading this article on Jang some time back in which before the US attack on afghanistan, some molvi urged his students to pratice swimming in the kabul river, so when the US ships come near the coast, they could swim and attack it. With this level of stupidity you cant expect much from back home. I think it’s up to the expatriates studying here to go back and do something. We have to fight fire with fire. If they can send B52s to bomb us, then there is no reason why we cant make f-16s to defend ourselves. During the battles at the time of the Prophet (PBUH), the sahabah made swords in preperation. They dint sit around and started praying for Allah to grant them voctory. This is not to say that prayers arent necessasy, but prayers without effort arent going to help much.
[/QUOTE]

Ok, so according to you, musharraf made a good decision because otherwise the nuclear capability of Pakistan would have been at stake.

The US has just set a pretext of pre-emptive strike and of stripping a nation which has nuclear weapons because they have terrorists (muslims who want an Islamic change).

They have attacked iraq because of US claims that it has nuclear weapons (even though they had no proof and still have not found them). If the US and Britain can attack Iraq because they suspect that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction then what will become of Pakistan who definately has weapons of mass destruction.

Are you waiting for the US to invade Pakistan?

Saddam, we all know was a western puppet and even then he was removed from his seat, so what makes you think the US will not use a similar style to attack Pakistan by the help of Indian bases and air space and with the help of the wetern ally Islam karimov, the head of Uzbekistan.

My brother, wake up!!!

The change needs to occur NOW!!!

We must work tirelessly day and night to remove the corrupt leaders who will give in to the claims of the west and allow them to colonise it and allow them to change the Islamic sentiments of the muslims.

Pakistan is on the hitlist of the west just like Syria and Iran, what are you going to do?

ak47 · April 22, 2003, 11:54pm

I think the people of iraq have shown the true sentiments of muslims worldwide

and that is of a global islamic state. They seen through the secular corrupt solutions given to them by the west. Even the secular muslims in pakistan and europe who are smitten by western culture and tout democracy like its something good are in awe of the response of the muslims of iraq they don't want saddam they don't want bush they don't want corrupt ideas like democracy they Want islam and they want islamic state ameen!

bao_bihari · April 23, 2003, 1:32am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khilafah1422: *

Assalamo alaikum

I am glad you raised this point about Imam Mehdi because this view that we need to wait for him is held by many people.

I think it is necsessary to highlight the misunderstanding that people hold from an Islamic perspective.

The Prophet(saw) made many prophecies regarding the future events that will take place in front of his sahabah (ra). One of them being that there will be an imam who will take the leadership of the Khilafah and bring justice to the world. The Prophet also foretold the establishment of the islamic state by a group of muslims who will originate from Al-Quds.

These ahadith are telling us information and they are not commanding us to wait for these events to occur. So there is no command from Allah (swt) or his messenger (saw) to take the back seat and wait for events to happen but rather these ahadith are informative.

further on, during the time of the Prophet he foretold many victories that will occur in the battles that will take place. I think victory was foretold regarding the battle of Badr. This information that the sahabah had in no way effected the effort that they contributed but rather it was an encouragement for them to work harder to achieve the victory.

Further more, there are many other ayahs and ahadith that oblige the muslims to bring an islamic state into existence and appoint the khalifah and also to change the evil that exists in society. So all of these are commands from Allah (swt) and if they are not fulfilled the people will be punished because they neglected an important fard.

One of the hadith of the Prophet (saw) is:

"wa man mata wa laisa fee 'unoqihee bayah, maata meetaatan jahiliyya"
"and whosoever dies without a bayah(to a khalifah) on his neck, dies the death of jahiliyya"
(sahih muslim)
So the Prophet rebuked the person who dies whilst he/she had no oath of allegiance to an imam (leader) and he died in that state.

The only way this obligation can be fulfilled is when the khalifah is brought into existence and hence it requires from us to work to establish the Islamic state by which a khalifah can be appointed.

So waiting for the arrival of imam mehdi and neglecting to establish the Islamic state will cause us to fall into sin as it would be ignoring Allah(saw)'s command.

So the hadith which tell us that a change will occur in the Islamic lands should encourage us to be the ones who the Prophet talked about and earn the reward on the hereafter.

Salaam
[/QUOTE]

assalam olaikum
only poinnt i was making was that we should struggle for khilafah but in my opinion it will be established by hazrat mehdi.......

any way .....the main 1 milllion dollar question is who will be the khalifah...or who will appoint khaleefah.....every one making a struggle for khilfaah be it dr israr...or hizb will try to enforce upoun thier nominee......have u guys sorted out that problem....

also ...establishing khilfaah will be the only first step towards islamic state.......and one more comment ..i think we have to use force to establish khilafaah..other wise it sems impossible for us to establish khilfaah by christian democracy.....or any other means......
wamalaina illal balagh

Khilafah1422 · April 23, 2003, 3:01pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by : *

assalam olaikum
only poinnt i was making was that we should struggle for khilafah but in my opinion it will be established by hazrat mehdi.......

any way .....the main 1 milllion dollar question is who will be the khalifah...or who will appoint khaleefah.....every one making a struggle for khilfaah be it dr israr...or hizb will try to enforce upoun thier nominee......have u guys sorted out that problem....

lso ...establishing khilfaah will be the only first step towards islamic state.......and one more comment ..i think we have to use force to establish khilafaah..other wise it sems impossible for us to establish khilfaah by christian democracy.....or any other means......
wamalaina illal balagh
[/QUOTE]

Assalamo alaikum bao bihari

Alhumdolillah you are very straightforward in your manner of speech.

You are absolutely right, that we need to struggle to bring back the khilafah.

As regards to the below statement you made:

but in my opinion it will be established by hazrat mehdi

I would like to state a hadith in which the Prophet (saw) told us that before imam Mehdi there be a a khalif before him.

So we can see that the khilafah will have already been established and then imam Mehdi will take over and this is when the victories begin insha-Allah.

And your statement:
any way .....the main 1 milllion dollar question is who will be the khalifah...or who will appoint khaleefah.....every one making a struggle for khilfaah be it dr israr...or hizb will try to enforce upoun thier nominee......have u guys sorted out that problem....

You are right, this is a million dollar/rupees question. In normal circumstances the Prophet (saw) gave the right of appointing a khalifah to the Ummah. So when one died the ummah would appoint another one as in the case of Abu bakr, umar etc...

But according to the islamic law, the right of choosing a khalifah is only 3 days and 2 nights (if you want evidence for this i will provide it). We have lost that right and so the first khalifah will be chosen by the people who removed the non islamic system from one of the islamic lands. In this case it would be the army. But once this khalifah dies or resigns, it is the ummah who will choose or those whom the ummah elected to represent her.

As for Hizb ut tahrir or any other jamaah or any muslim, he or she will be obliged to obey the khalifah even though he might differ from thier opinion. He's obedience is obligatory so long as he rules by Islam and his obedience ceases when he rules by non-islam.

establishing khilfaah will be the only first step towards islamic state.......and one more comment ..i think we have to use force to establish khilafaah..other wise it sems impossible for us to establish khilfaah by christian democracy.....or any other means......

Again you are correct in saying that it is impossible to bring back the khilafah via democracy. Another way of looking at this is that the Prophet (saw) never used democracy or any other similar method to bring the Islamic state into existence but rather he got the help of the powerbase in Madina, which were the people who had power, to overthrow the regime of Abdullah ibn sallul and replace it with the Islamic system.

So we need to follow the footsteps of the Prophet(saw) and call upon the muslim armies to overthrow their governments and establish on thier ashes the Khilafah system.

May Allah(swt) guide us to work for this.
AMEEN YA RABBIL ALAMEEN

Khilafah1422 · April 25, 2003, 12:38am