Muslims should unite, but not under the HT, as its nothing more than a self centered organization with its own interests and ways of brainwashing the people...
^ I agree. Reform begins at home and not by joinig some weird organization that has its own beliefs corrupted. One day I met this HT member who told me that the organization doesnt beleive in some of the ahad hadiths, and as such there would be no tribulation in the grave, and its not a sin to look at nude pictures, etc etc. I have said it before, and i say it again--the only way out of this mess is with some serious taubah and education (in sciences as well as religon). The west would never want a system that challenges their way of life. We saw that with the war against USSR to destroy communism.
tell me more about them
ht i mean.......why u dont like them....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by lunaticCalm: *
^ I agree. Reform begins at home and not by joinig some weird organization that has its own beliefs corrupted. One day I met this HT member who told me that the organization doesnt beleive in some of the ahad hadiths, and as such there would be no tribulation in the grave, and its not a sin to look at nude pictures, etc etc. I have said it before, and i say it again--the only way out of this mess is with some serious taubah and education (in sciences as well as religon). The west would never want a system that challenges their way of life. We saw that with the war against USSR to destroy communism.
[/QUOTE]
Hmmm,
Seems to me just a way to get you to join them.
Wow..look at nude pictures...
Not a holy way to enjoin people.
Agree or Not?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by lunaticCalm: *
^ I agree. Reform begins at home and not by joinig some weird organization that has its own beliefs corrupted. One day I met this HT member who told me that the organization doesnt beleive in some of the ahad hadiths, and as such there would be no tribulation in the grave, and its not a sin to look at nude pictures, etc etc. I have said it before, and i say it again--the only way out of this mess is with some serious taubah and education (in sciences as well as religon). The west would never want a system that challenges their way of life. We saw that with the war against USSR to destroy communism.
[/QUOTE]
Assalaam-u-alaikum
There were a few people who were thrown out of the party(HT) who still call themselves Hizb-ut-Tahrir, they may say that looking at nude pics are allowed, whereas we say that it is not allowed. If you look at chapter 5 of our book Nidham-ul-Islam(the systems of Islam) we say that it is not from Islam. We are your brothers so have trust in us as we are one ummah.
with regards to what the west like and dislike, we muslims are obliged to re-establish the khilafah, so we have to listen to Allah(SWT)'s command and this is what we will be accounted upon.
As for believing in Adhab-ul-Qabr, we believe in it.
so lets focus on the issue at hand and discuss the way to re-establish the khilafah.
was-salaam
First prepare the people, maybe the system for this time is different from Khilafah!
Zamanay keh andaz badley gayay
naya raag hai saaz badlay gayay
khirad ko ghulami sey azaad kar
jawano ko piroon ka ustaad kar!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Muslims should unite, but not under the HT, as its nothing more than a self centered organization with its own interests and ways of brainwashing the people...
[/QUOTE]
assalamo alaikum my dear brother,
I hope you are recieving the blessings of Allah and are in good health.
My brother, muslim unity can only be achieved by unifying our lands by removing those nationalistic borders that give us identities that are alien to Islam. This practically can be achieved when you have a government which is Islamic and it calls upon the rest of the Ummah to unify with it.
my brother, the obligation is not to form opinions about hizb ut tahrir but to engage in the work to re-establish the khilafah state. There are many ayahs that oblige every muslim to ensure that the ruling system in the muslim countries is Islamic. So the main point is not Hizb ut tahrir but to carry the dawah and to help in this cause.
What do you think?
Wa salaam
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
assalam o alaikum
sorry i could not answer u before as i am busy with my studies......if possible we will discuss this issue after 15 june when i'll have more time to post.......
any way in my opinion the best way to bring about the desired change is that each organisation must concentrate on its influential terriotories .......and give supporing role to other sister organisations in areas where these organisations have influence......and when if any one of us succeed in establishing khilafah then give full support to that khilfah......however it is to be established that which orgnisations deserves support.........this thing should be established by top ulemas of the ummah......
for e.g.......in pakistan jihadi organisations have the most in fluential base ......so support these (authentic only)jihadi or pro jihadi organisations in establishing khilafah.......
simlarly in central asia i suppose hizb has more support ...so support hizb there and so on........
however these are only my own opinion....i can change it any time i get a more feasible one.......
assalam oalikum
[/QUOTE]
assalam olaikum
khilafah ...i am still waiting for ur reply on this......if some body dont want to work with ht.......plz dont ....do it with some other org. who r reliable in his opinion.......and if he dont rely any one .....then the problem is with him not with orgs...............
salam
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Muslims should unite, but not under the HT, as its nothing more than a self centered organization with its own interests and ways of brainwashing the people...
[/QUOTE]
yup......agree:)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khilafah1422: *
assalamo alaikum my dear brother,
I hope you are recieving the blessings of Allah and are in good health.
My brother, muslim unity can only be achieved by unifying our lands by removing those nationalistic borders that give us identities that are alien to Islam. This practically can be achieved when you have a government which is Islamic and it calls upon the rest of the Ummah to unify with it.
my brother, the obligation is not to form opinions about hizb ut tahrir but to engage in the work to re-establish the khilafah state. There are many ayahs that oblige every muslim to ensure that the ruling system in the muslim countries is Islamic. So the main point is not Hizb ut tahrir but to carry the dawah and to help in this cause.
What do you think?
Wa salaam
[/QUOTE]
Salaam brother, and thanks for the kind compliments.
Well, after having been in touch with some HT people, I have found their ways to be a little self centered i.e. they care more about their own interests than the global interests which would truely benefit Muslims as a whole. They are also doing a bad job by spreading hatred too, between Muslims and Muslims AS WELL AS Muslims and Non-Muslims. Dont get me wrong brother, but there was a time, during our Prophet's(pbuh) life, and the Khulfa-e-Rashedeen, when the Muslims had good relations with non-Muslims, and a transfer of knowledge and trade carried on between the two. Why cant we have it now? Why not preach peace rather than hate. The only thing the HT has achieved in these 50 years or so is to create a handful of supporters, united under a common cause, and have done nothing more than distributing flyers and caused some dissent over the issue of the Khalifah. I am not debating the latter here, but I believe that the HT should broaden their view to encompass all Muslims, not just whom they think are Muslims (just because they agree with them) and then speak about unity, love and harmony between all Muslims; then both you and I will see how far we will get!
Salaam
i met brothers from the hizb they were always talking about removing the Israel Occupation in Palestine, so no they dont support zionism
and the issue about the T-shirt, you didn-t finish the whole sentence, so it should be "Don't stop the War, except through islamic politics"
if you want to stop the War then stop it from quran and sunnah
one thing that we should remember, when Allah(Quran) and his messenger (Sunnah) has given us a method to establish a state,
why don't we try this first before we try kufr method to establish the state
remember Islam is the truth!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Aafreen: *
aa, all your questions will be answered by the fatawa and religious advice i posted, I have inserted relevant hyperlinks....
they are all relevant to questions you are asking. Why dont you do some homework?? Why should i spend time editing, and cutting and pasting when you should be reading it all...anyway i actually have work to do like lobbying my MP, monitoring the media, attending MPAC event this weekend etc.
ws aaf
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
assalam olaikum
khilafah ...i am still waiting for ur reply on this......if some body dont want to work with ht.......plz dont ....do it with some other org. who r reliable in his opinion.......and if he dont rely any one .....then the problem is with him not with orgs...............
salam
[/QUOTE]
Assalamo alaikum my brother
You are right that muslims throughout the globe need to work for the khilafah as it is one of the highest obligations of Islam.
You posted a statement regarding the need to support those organisations which have influence in the territories that they function in. My answer to this would be that we always need to review our actions and to see if the agenda put forward for the re-establishment of the Islamic state matches with the method the Prophet(saw) treaded in his struggle to establish the Islamic state.
This would mean that the muslim would read the books of the life of the Prophet (saw), meaning his seerah and to then look for those organisation/s which follow this method. If they match this method then we support them and if they dont, then we withdraw our support and give advice to those organisations.
We withdraw our support not for personal reasons but because Allah (swt) commanded us to adopt the way in which the Prophet did things. So Allah commands us to pray, we would endevour to follow the way the Prophet prayed and if anyone produced a new method of praying (like the Qadianis) we would reject it straight away. This is because Allah (swt) says " whatever the messenger gave you, take it and whatever he forbade you, stay away from it" [hash:7].
So, in some of the muslim countries, you have organisations which want to join the current government, rule by their laws and then slowly bring a gradual change in the laws. Sounds wonderful, but the Prophet refused in Makkah to become part of the Quraishi government and to bring a change from within the system. Supporting these organisations would mean supporting an agenda which Allah(swt) did not approve of.
Would you agree?
wa salaam
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Salaam brother, and thanks for the kind compliments.
Well, after having been in touch with some HT people, I have found their ways to be a little self centered i.e. they care more about their own interests than the global interests which would truely benefit Muslims as a whole. They are also doing a bad job by spreading hatred too, between Muslims and Muslims AS WELL AS Muslims and Non-Muslims. Dont get me wrong brother, but there was a time, during our Prophet's(pbuh) life, and the Khulfa-e-Rashedeen, when the Muslims had good relations with non-Muslims, and a transfer of knowledge and trade carried on between the two. Why cant we have it now? Why not preach peace rather than hate. The only thing the HT has achieved in these 50 years or so is to create a handful of supporters, united under a common cause, and have done nothing more than distributing flyers and caused some dissent over the issue of the Khalifah. I am not debating the latter here, but I believe that the HT should broaden their view to encompass all Muslims, not just whom they think are Muslims (just because they agree with them) and then speak about unity, love and harmony between all Muslims; then both you and I will see how far we will get!
Salaam
[/QUOTE]
Assalamo alaikum brother, jazakAllah khair for your post
I would like to address a few points regarding your post. My first point is one you would agree with. The point being, that when Islam came to makkah, the Prophet faced various struggles and faced many trials against the kuffaar. The kufaar told the Prophet that if you stop attacking our traditions, customs and our way of life, we will allow you to worship your God and not attack you (This event is mentioned in most Seerah books).
The kuffaar complained to the uncle of the Prophet(saw) that he should compromise and co-exist with the traditions and culture of the time and when the Prophet heard this his reply was " O uncle! If they were to put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left on condition that I abandon this deen, i would not do it unless Allah(swt) makes it dominant (izhaar) or i die in the attempt!
So his (saw) objective was to stuggle against the corrupt practices of the time and to make Islam dominate. He, by the grace of Allah, achieved the victory after going through physical torture, boycott, verbal slander etc.
So the path of victory entails struggle against all those ideas, concepts and actions which contradict Islam. So I would ask all those people who call to live peacefully with the kufaar and not to challenge thier way of life, " would you say the same to the Prophet of Allah, that he should have been less challenging and he should not have attacked the kufr way of life"???
Would they argue that "look, the Prophet faced physical torture and slander, maybe he should have learnt to co-exist"???
May Allah forgive those who do (ameen)!
There were times where the Prophet(saw) would openly call people by thier names and challenge them in a frank manner even though it resulted in hardship, example being when he challenged abulahab and Allah (swt) revealed " tabbat yadaa abi lahabbiw watabb" Perish the hands of a lahab!
So our dawah needs to be open and we need to challenge all those ideas which conflict with Islam. As for attacking muslims and creating conflict with them, this is haraam and not the style of the dawah. However if an organisation is corrupt and aids the agenda of the west, then we would attack those ideas but not the muslims who carry it.
The time of peace between muslims and non muslims was definately there when we lived side by side under the Islamic state. But as soon as conspiracies were seen by them, they were told to leave the state and no leniency was given to them. So it is evident that if a muslim or a non muslim broke the law of Islam, both were punished equally, which shows that at no time should the concepts of Islam be compromised.
Wa salaam
So it is evident that if a muslim or a non muslim broke the law of Islam, both were punished equally
That is just one of the many reasons why governments must not be theocracies. What right do those of a different (even if majority) faith have to tell others to follow their religous laws?
Its decline was not due to the unsuitability of its system but because people started to become confused about islam due to the influence of foreign philosophies ie greek, persian and later western.
All socieities that flourish borrow from previous civilizations. The philosophies that "confused" Muslims had been around centuries before the introduction of Islam. Once people are enlightened in this way, it is hard to ask them to crawl back into a shell. What you are describing is reform - which all great religions have gone through since the beginning of time.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khilafah1422: *
Assalamo alaikum brother, jazakAllah khair for your post
I would like to address a few points regarding your post. My first point is one you would agree with. The point being, that when Islam came to makkah, the Prophet faced various struggles and faced many trials against the kuffaar. The kufaar told the Prophet that if you stop attacking our traditions, customs and our way of life, we will allow you to worship your God and not attack you (This event is mentioned in most Seerah books).
The kuffaar complained to the uncle of the Prophet(saw) that he should compromise and co-exist with the traditions and culture of the time and when the Prophet heard this his reply was " O uncle! If they were to put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left on condition that I abandon this deen, i would not do it unless Allah(swt) makes it dominant (izhaar) or i die in the attempt!
So his (saw) objective was to stuggle against the corrupt practices of the time and to make Islam dominate. He, by the grace of Allah, achieved the victory after going through physical torture, boycott, verbal slander etc.
So the path of victory entails struggle against all those ideas, concepts and actions which contradict Islam. So I would ask all those people who call to live peacefully with the kufaar and not to challenge thier way of life, " would you say the same to the Prophet of Allah, that he should have been less challenging and he should not have attacked the kufr way of life"???
Would they argue that "look, the Prophet faced physical torture and slander, maybe he should have learnt to co-exist"???
May Allah forgive those who do (ameen)!
There were times where the Prophet(saw) would openly call people by thier names and challenge them in a frank manner even though it resulted in hardship, example being when he challenged abulahab and Allah (swt) revealed " tabbat yadaa abi lahabbiw watabb" Perish the hands of a lahab!
So our dawah needs to be open and we need to challenge all those ideas which conflict with Islam. As for attacking muslims and creating conflict with them, this is haraam and not the style of the dawah. However if an organisation is corrupt and aids the agenda of the west, then we would attack those ideas but not the muslims who carry it.
The time of peace between muslims and non muslims was definately there when we lived side by side under the Islamic state. But as soon as conspiracies were seen by them, they were told to leave the state and no leniency was given to them. So it is evident that if a muslim or a non muslim broke the law of Islam, both were punished equally, which shows that at no time should the concepts of Islam be compromised.
Wa salaam
[/QUOTE]
Salaam bro, thanks for the reply.
Well, you missed one of the points I was referring to... You are right, struggles went on in the beginning, but there have been numerous times where the Muslims have lived in peace with non-Muslims, and infact ushered new eras of friendship and transfer of knowledge. I mean we cannot just kill all these non-Muslim Christians, jews, buddhists, hindus etc... We have to live with them, like it or not. I mean most HT members are living in the UK and they cry out loud against the British Government and its internal policies. Well, you are living in their country, and you will have to abide by their laws, and respect them. Encouraging extremism will definitely make them mad.
Thanks
salam bro
i live in UK, i never seen a law that you have to partake in the political system of the West
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Salaam bro, thanks for the reply.
Well, you missed one of the points I was referring to... You are right, struggles went on in the beginning, but there have been numerous times where the Muslims have lived in peace with non-Muslims, and infact ushered new eras of friendship and transfer of knowledge. I mean we cannot just kill all these non-Muslim Christians, jews, buddhists, hindus etc... We have to live with them, like it or not. I mean most HT members are living in the UK and they cry out loud against the British Government and its internal policies. Well, you are living in their country, and you will have to abide by their laws, and respect them. Encouraging extremism will definitely make them mad.
Thanks
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole: *
**So it is evident that if a muslim or a non muslim broke the law of Islam, both were punished equally*
That is just one of the many reasons why governments must not be theocracies. What right do those of a different (even if majority) faith have to tell others to follow their religous laws?
[/QUOTE]
The Islamic khilafah system is not a theocratic system in it's ideas nor in it'a application. this is because a theocratic state has certain charecteristics which the islamic system does not possess.
your mistake in calling the islamic political system a theocracy indicates that you are not aquanted with the correct criteria of a theocracy. the reality of a theocratic system is fixed and has a particular shape and form, two of its charecteristics being:
1) God chooses the leader of that nation and the people have no authority in choosing their leaders
2) The leader should be immune from error
These two charecteristics do not exist in the islamic system as the khalifah is appointed to his post by the consent of the people and it is not a condition that he be infallible rather infallability only exists in Prophets.
The other point of people being having to adhere to religious laws and how they should not be compelled to obey those laws. This in fact is an incorrect view because these laws have come to address human problems and not muslims problems. As an example, if a muslim or a non muslim raped another women then the legal law would be applied upon them both since these laws have come to deal with the relationship between men and women and not muslim men and women. Similarly the law allows the aquisition of private property, this applis to men, women, muslims and non muslims.
Therefore the correct view towards this issue is that there is an intellectual basis that provides laws for the regulation of society and it is applied equally upon all of its citizens without discrimination.
Why is it not said that the muslims living in the west should not be forced to live thier lives by the laws that emanate from secularism and that this is enforcing a viewpoint upon people who dont believe in secularism. My point being that any state which posseses an ideology will implement it upon its citizens and ensure its application upon all. hence islam is not a dogma which is enforced upon people rather it is a political ideology which has laws regarding all affairs and it implements them upon those who live under its authority.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Salaam bro, thanks for the reply.
Well, you missed one of the points I was referring to... You are right, struggles went on in the beginning, but there have been numerous times where the Muslims have lived in peace with non-Muslims, and infact ushered new eras of friendship and transfer of knowledge. I mean we cannot just kill all these non-Muslim Christians, jews, buddhists, hindus etc... We have to live with them, like it or not. I mean most HT members are living in the UK and they cry out loud against the British Government and its internal policies. Well, you are living in their country, and you will have to abide by their laws, and respect them. Encouraging extremism will definitely make them mad.
Thanks
[/QUOTE]
Assalamo alaikum
Your point regarding the harmony that existed amongst muslims and non muslims cannot be denied as it is a fact that existed under the Islamic state.
The reason why I highlighted the issue of struggle was to point out that untill Islam became dominant as a system, this struggle continued and the struggle of kufr and Islam continued.
The struggle does not connote the killing of jews, christians, buddhists etc. Since the struggle is not with humans but the ideas carried by humans. An an example, the Prophet (saw) saw that in the makkan society people would bury thier daughters alive. He (saw) did not accept that to be a valid custom or practice of the society and engaged in a struggle of ideas with the objective of making the Islamic ideas (regarding female infants) dominant. He did all of this to ensure that the islamic call becomes predominant within the society. So anywhere the muslims reside, be it in the west or otherwise, we take the model of the Prophet and engage in intellectual struggle to make the Islamic way of life dominant. It would not be acceptable for the muslim to accept a kufr law to be a valid law since the Prophet(saw) rejected the creed and practices of the quraish society.
That is why i mentioned the issue of struggle and its continous presence since without it there will be no clash between kufr and Haq (truth).
Wa salaam
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole: *
**Its decline was not due to the unsuitability of its system but because people started to become confused about islam due to the influence of foreign philosophies ie greek, persian and later western.*
All socieities that flourish borrow from previous civilizations. The philosophies that "confused" Muslims had been around centuries before the introduction of Islam. Once people are enlightened in this way, it is hard to ask them to crawl back into a shell. What you are describing is reform - which all great religions have gone through since the beginning of time.
[/QUOTE]
If Islam was incomplete and lacked the ability to solve problems it would be necessary to borrow from other philosophies. Since that is not the case, there was no need to borrow from other civilisations in terms of thier ideas and thier systems which come from thier viewpoint about life.
Yes, definately those religions in the past did have reformation as they became outdated and were unable to continue without a reform as they were not comprehensive systems but just ideas which had to method of application. Since Islam addreses all problems and is not a religion but a comprehensive ideology, it needs no reformation like christianity.
No muslim would deny that Islam is complete since it is linked with thier creed about life. Allah (swt) says " this day i have perfected your deen (ideology)" [maida 3].