The issue of Fadak

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: The issue of Fadak

i dont know who abbas b ali is but muhamad b abi bakr radiallahanhu was strongly implicated in the murder of uthman and along with 3 other muhammads one of his most bitter crtitics it wud be a strech to think he wud have come to the aid of uthman

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Re: The issue of Fadak

coming back to our topic the participation of Ali in the administration of abu bakr , umar and uthman was not very different from that of many other senior companions.

it has to be accepted that ali was not one of the closest friends of any of the first 3 caliphs as all senior companions had their own group of buddies ( e.g it can be argued that abu ubaydah was to umar what ammar was to ali )...that explains why ali was not first choice for many govermental posts but by the same logic when ali became caliph he also favored those companions/followers ( albiet of high religious standing ) as candidates for office whom he trusted most.In this respect ali followed umar's example to a great extent of basing appointments of seniority.

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Re: The issue of Fadak

Abbas b Ali was the son of Hazrat Imam Ali and flag bearer of the army of Hazrat Imam Hussain in the battle of Karbala.
About Mohd b Abi Bakr- that is your personal point of view about the history and that is fine.

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Re: The issue of Fadak

Well nussairee may Allah(swt) reward you for understanding His revelation that we will not be questioned about people who has passed away but will be questioned about our own deeds.

As for your question regarding the will of Allah(Swt) and His Mesenger(saws) i will give you just one verse and inshallah it will clear your doubt and will give you a satisfying answer.

Surah Ahzaab verse 36: It does not behove a believing man and a believing woman that when Allah and His Messenger have given their decision in a matter, they should exercise an option in that matter of theirs. For whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, has indeed strayed into manifest error.

Thus Allah and His Messenger (saws) have given their opinion about the noble companions of the Prophet (saws), and as true believers, our opinion should also be the same.

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^ thats not my personal viewpoint according to tabari which u mentioned

"crisis of early caliphate" volume XV
according to waqidi ( who is an authority on historical writings) muhammad b abibakr was one of the four assasins of uthman

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Re: The issue of Fadak

I thank you for the reference matey.

About Mohd b Abi Bakr it is said that he was seen entering the house of Uthman from the backside with the assasins. But he is said to be in persuit of the assasins in order to stop them! Allahu' Alim.

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Re: The issue of Fadak

Peace Texan_Dude

Yet Allah (SWT) is the knower of hearts. I am merely defending the people I have talked about. The hadith you quoted above actually appears like this ... I have added the bold for emphasis.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 325:

Narrated by Aisha:
After the death of Allah’s Apostle, Fatima–the daughter of Allah’s Apostle–asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give to her what was her share of inheritance from what Allah’s Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Our property will not be inherited; whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah (to be used for charity).” Fatima, the daughter of Allah’s Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude until she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah’s Apostle.”

The point here is linguistic, it does not say why Fatimah (RA) got "angry" and why she stopped talking to Abu Bakr (RA).

I mean she could have become "angry" for personal reasons, she could have been "angry" that she should have known better. What it definitely does not say in that hadith is "that she became angry with Abu Bakr (RA)" - first point.

Next point is that she (RA) could have stopped talking to Abu Bakr (RA) out of embarassment that she had to be corrected, or that the situation made her look desirous for worldly possession, Allahu'alim, my point being there is more than one reason to stop talking with someone. - second point

Next is to do with the narration itself:
Although we believe it is authentic i.e. Aisha (RA) really did say this, we do not however have to take it as contextually accurate, but as an opinion of Aisha (RA) rather than anything else. To explain in modern talking a person would be asked to explain ... did so and so get angry or did it appear to you as though so and so got angry.

My point being it could have been frustration, an expression that 'seemed' to Aisha (RA) like anger. - third point.

Of course I believe Abu Bakr (RA) did go to Fatima-tu-Zahra (RA) to **make her pleased **but this may have been because Aisha (RA) may have told him that she was angry. Of course with no cause to be angry with him or anyone else, he still may have found it befitting to please Faitmah (RA) anyway. Her anger may have been a longing to be with her father, the Fadak may have been how she wished to remember him ... you see the number of possibilities are numerous, but alas I don't believe there was a dispute over the land either.

Why would a woman, daughter of the last prophet (RA) who knew she would be the next one to die, bother about a piece of land? When she was bound for gardens in paradise? And to assume Fatimah (RA) was grudging until her last moments a person who she considered her father's best friend, this is not even a pious attitude, let alone one for a daughter of a prophet. Rather she may have began to concentrate on focussed ibadah and comfort through ittkaf and when people do this they remove themselves from the worldly matters and tend to become silent not just with one or two people but with everyone. The lonesome janaza explains that she dies in solitude as she lived in solitude for those last few months, except may be her position as wife of Ali (RA).

May be she honestly became slightly angry, and may be she did hold a small grudge, but then how can she be infallible then? - my last point.

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thank u for ur kind words & a beautiful verse from the holy Quran but i am unaware of the opinion of the Allah and his Prophet u r refering to......actually if u read carefully then in this thread we r yet to establish a clear definition of a Sahabi.....so whats ur opinion about who the sahabis are?

Bait Bazi March 2013
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Re: The issue of Fadak

Texan _dude the reasons behind this contradictions is just lack of our understanding and our baseless conclusions. In your previous posts you quoted a hadith where Fatima(r.a.) was buried at night and much more. It is indeed true Fatima(r.a) was burried at night but it is absolutely a false notion that she was burried at night so as to avert a confrontation with Abu Bakr(r.a.)!!

The Prophet (saws) buried a man at night, who used to remember Allah aloud during the night. Similarly Hadrat Ali (r.a.) buried his beloved wife Fatimah (r.a.) at night. Hadrat Abu Bakr (r.a.), Hadrat Uthman (r.a.), Hadrat Aishah (r.a.), and Hadrat Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud (r.a.) were also buried during the night.

Allah and His Messenger(saws) made it abundantly clear that no believing man is allowed to see the face of or unnecessarily encounter a non-mehram woman...whether living or dead! And it is inconceivable if any non-mehram male believer even saw the face of the Leader of the Women in Paradise, and the noble and chaste daughter of the Prophet (saws). Thus, it is nothing but slander and false stories which some people have circulated that Hadrat Fatima (r.a.) was buried at night because she did not want Hadrat Abu Bakr (r.a.) to see her face!

Allah Alone knows best why and under what circumstances was Hadrat Fatima (r.a.) buried at night! But to claim that she was secretly buried, is to challenge the bravery, might, courage and piety of one of the bravest and noblest companion and the beloved cousin of the Messenger of Allah (saws)- Hadrat Imam Ali (r.a.)

It is evident from his whole life, that Hadrat Imam Ali (r.a.) feared no one other than Allah; and it does not behove this courageous and fearless Imam to bury his wife secretly. It is probable and possible that Hadrat Fatima (r.a.) might have died in the late afternoon and she was buried in the night by Imam Ali (r.a.) and the believers.

Surah Taubah verse 100: "Allah was well pleased with those Muhajirs and Ansaars who were the first to respond to the invitation to the Faith, and with those also, who followed them in their righteous conduct; and they too were well pleased with (the reward from) Allah. He has got ready for them Gardens underneath which canals flow and they will abide therein for ever. This is the Greatest Success."

Among the early reverts to Islam were such noble companions as Ali, Abu Bakr, Uthman, Abdur Rahman , Saad, Umar, Talha, Zubair, Bilaal( May Allah b pleased with them all) etc. Allah Himself says that He is well pleased with them and has prepared for them Gardens in Paradise underneath which canals will be flowing and they will abide therein for ever!

Last but not the least Abu Bakr(r.a.) is innumerable times better in the sight of Allah(swt) than us ...so brother we dont have any authority to say even a word against them; then why to discuss such topics which for sure displeases our creator!!!

May Allah guide us all to the right path, bestow us only with that knowledge which is true and beneficial for us to increase our ranks in sight of Allah(swt), His Messenger(saws) and helps us in entering Jannah; Ameen!!

Allah knows best

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Psyah......its painful to see u repeating urself......please brother read post #36 by Texan dude again specially the last 3 links.....its not the piece of land that was the main problem here.......the details are quite upsetting & i think thts the reason why texan dude is referaining from opening the door to them.........syeda Fatima was buried alone at an uknown location in the middle of night by Imam Ali because that was her will........

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وَالسَّابِقُونَ الأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالأَنصَارِ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُم بِإِحْسَانٍ رَّضِيَ اللّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُواْ عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي تَحْتَهَا الأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ذَلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ

This مِنَ clearly says OF, had it meant all of them it wouldn't have مِنَ there.

I think somebdy posted the following hadith b4 in this thread but i presnt it to u again:

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 76, Number 584

Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."

Timepass - March 2013
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Do you and me know who those companions are whom Prophet Mohammed(saws) is refering to in the hadith you quoted??? It is only Allah who know your intentions behind quoting this hadith. But the way i took your post..... i can assure you Abu Bakr (r.a.) is in mercy of Allah in light of Quraan and sahi hadith. Abu Bakr (r.a.) is among those who were foretold about the mercy and bounty of Allah(Swt) in the hereafter.

Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 4632 Narrated by Sa'id ibn Zayd
AbdurRahman ibn al-Akhnas said that when he was in the mosque, a man mentioned Ali (r.a.). So Sa'id ibn Zayd got up and said: ‘I bear witness to the Messenger of Allah (saws) that I heard him (saws) say: ‘Ten persons will go to Paradise: The Prophet (saws) will go to Paradise! AbuBakr will go to Paradise! Umar will go to Paradise! Uthman will go to Paradise! Ali will go to Paradise! Talhah will go to Paradise! Az-Zubayr ibn al-Awwam will go to paradise! Sa'd ibn Malik will go to Paradise! and Abdur Rahman ibn Awf will go to Paradise! If you wish, I can mention the tenth.’ The people asked: ‘Who is he?’ So he (Hadrat Said ibn Zayd) kept silence. They again asked: ‘Who is he?’ He (Hadrat Said ibn Zayd) replied: ‘He is Sa'id ibn Zayd.’

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 5.18 Narrated by Abu Huraira
I heard Allah's Messenger (saws) saying, "Anybody who spends a pair of something in Allah's Cause will be called from all the gates of Paradise, 'O Allah's slave! This is good.' He who is amongst those who pray will be called from the gate of the prayer (in Paradise) and he who is from the people of Jihad will be called from the gate of Jihad, and he who is from those who give in charity (i.e. Zakat) will be called from the gate of charity, and he who is amongst those who observe fast will be called from the gate of fasting, the gate of Raiyan." Abu Bakr said, "He who is called from all those gates will need nothing," He added, "Will anyone be called from all those gates, O Allah's Messenger (saws)?" He (saws) said, "Yes, and I hope you will be among those, O Abu Bakr."

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 5.2 Narrated by Imran bin Husain
*Allah's Messenger (saws) said, "The best of my followers are those living in my generation (i.e. his companions), and then (2nd best are) those who will follow them (the first generation), then (the 3rd best are) those who follow them." *

Besides the previous verse from Surah Tauba i will quote one more verse from Surah Hashr verse 8: They (the companions who migrated from Makkah to Medina) seek Allah’s bounty and His goodwill, and are ever ready to succour Allah and His Messenger. They indeed are the Truthful.

And Histroy has recorded that companions of the Prophet (saws) like Hadrat Abu Baqr, Hadrat Umar, Hadrat Uthmaan, Hadrat Ali, Hadrat Bilaal, Hadrat Ammar, etc. were amongst the earliest reverts to Islam in Makkah and they forsook their homes and migrated with the Prophet (saws) from Makkah to Madinah.

Hope my response is crystal clear. Anyways this will be last response for a week or two, since i got a hectic schedule but still inshallah if time permits i will try my best to reply you people further.

Timepass - March 2013
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^
Promise and Pleasure of Allah
By Ali Khalfan

There is no doubt that when Allah makes a promise, it is a promise of truth. Even Shaitan acknowledges this fact as Allah quotes him:

And the Shaitan shall say after the affair is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, then failed to keep them to you, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: I cannot be your aider (now) nor can you be my aiders; surely I disbelieved in your associating me with Allah before; surely it is the unjust that shall have the painful punishment. (14:22)

The Qur’an also says:

Allah has promised to the believing men and the believing women gardens, beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them, and goodly dwellings in gardens of perpetual abode; and best of all is Allah's goodly pleasure; that is the grand achievement. (9:72)

Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment. (9:68)

Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge, which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement. (9:111)

The above verses prove that Allah’s promise is binding on Him but each promise is conditional. For example, the promise of gardens has been made to the believing men and believing women on the condition of Allah’s pleasure. At the same time, the promise of punishment has been made to the hypocrites and disbelievers on the condition of Allah’s displeasure. This means that if the believers change their condition, then the promise of punishment will apply to them.

Now we come to the question of Allah’s pleasure. Is it everlasting or can it be reversed?

Let us consider the example of a person by the name Zayd who is a good believer initially and thus Allah is pleased with him. Now what if Zayd becomes a transgressor? Obviously, Allah would be displeased with him. The point we are making is as follows:

If Allah says that He is pleased with Zayd it does not mean that now Zayd has the liberty of becoming a transgressor since Allah is already pleased with him. The pleasure of Allah is based on the condition that Zayd is a good believer and continues to do well and does not fall into transgression. If Zayd becomes a transgressor after Allah was pleased with him, then there is a new Divine Will about Zayd – “the displeasure of Allah”. Now if Zayd turns to become a good believer again, the original Divine Will is applied – “the pleasure of Allah”.

The following verses prove what we have said above:

They will swear to you that you may be pleased with them; but if you are pleased with them, yet surely Allah is not pleased with the transgressing people. (9:96)

Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquility on them and rewarded them with a near victory (48:18)

The first verse shows that Allah is displeased with the transgressing people and the second verse shows that Allah is pleased with the believing people. If the latter group transgresses, then Allah’s displeasure would apply. Also, verse 48:18 proves that Allah’s pleasure on the believers was based on their swearing of allegiance and the condition of their heart.

Now let us look at the following verses:

And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement. (9:100)

Allah will say: This is the day when their truth shall benefit the truthful ones; they shall have gardens beneath which rivers flow to abide in them for ever: Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Allah; this is the mighty achievement. (5:119)

Based on what we have said above, the clause “Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him” in verse 9:100 is probably not a descriptive statement about the Muhajirs and Ansars but rather a conditional statement. In other words, the promise of gardens for them is based on the pleasure of Allah and the latter is not absolute but based on certain circumstances like being truthful as mentioned in the next verse. This is the reason why Allamah Tabataba’I in his tafseer of this verse (in al-Mizan) says that the promise of the gardens for the categories mentioned has to be conditional based on the comprehensive Qur’anic perspective of “Divine Pleasure”. Therefore the idea that the Muhajirs and Ansars have been promised gardens regardless of their belief or behavior does not hold any ground.

Conclusion

The above discourse shows that the promise of Allah is but a true promise and based on Allah’s pleasure or displeasure. On the other hand, Allah’s pleasure or displeasure is conditional. Divine Pleasure is not necessarily everlasting and can be reversed to displeasure if the person behaves differently. This means that Allah can be displeased with the same person He was pleased with before if the behavior or condition of the person changes.

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bro Das Reich, i do not mean this in a taunting way but why did Uthman give these well known hypocrites important positions like Marwan B Hakam became his deputy, and Walid b Utba became governor of Kufa?

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^ lets not derail the discussion even further , I think u know very well why they were appointed ( both were ummayyads)

but the core subject is what is the significance of dispute of fadak in the bigger context of question of leadership in islamic history

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I doubt this is a sahih hadith. Please correct me if I am wrong but Ali is a rightly guided caliph and Talha and Zubayr instigated a rebellion against him and caused a lot of bloodshed amongst Muslims. If Ali was rightly guided then Talha and Zubayr cannot possibly be going to Paradise or you can say Ali was not rightly guided.

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Buddy I need to compliment you on the way you analyze stuff..... The first point doesn't seem anything but just the lamest excuse you can come up with the ignore the truth.... i mean the whole narration is about Hazrat Abu Bakar and Bibi Fatima Zehra, read the part of the narration that you had made bold yourself with a special emphasis on the AND part and read the stuff highlighted from your post... It would nullify your first point itself....

So let me ask you something...... Please answer the following questions I raised in the previous posts before you go on with a game of accusations and analysis where you contradict yourself:

- Does everything Prophet P.B.U.H says is according to Allah SWT will?

- Would Allah SWT let his Prophet give such a hadith if nauzubillah Bibi Fatima Zehra SA had a tendency of getting angry with the people for wrong reasons?

- The only person who represented lady when it came to curse on lairs in Mubahila , the lady who was raised no other then Prophet P.B.U.H. .... nauzubillah misinterprets quran and yet Abu Bakr knew it correclty? If this is your believe. May Allah SWT and his Prophet P.B.U.H reward you for correcting the ummah.

- Are you implying the lady who is chief of all the ladies and paradise and the mother of the leaders of heaven.. nazubillah mis interpret Quran and yet Abu Bakr who is just a companion knows better and can embarass her????? Wow buddy you got some nerve... Good Job !

- Would Quran ask us to love Ahleybait even though they nauzubillah can mis interpret quran and get angry for wrong reasons?

- Would Prophet ask us to follow Quran and Sunnah and yet do not give us a reliable source to get the sunnah and leave us to pick and choose? or is it Quran and Ahleybait as I quoted from Sahih Muslim earlier?

Sounds like another bunch of excuses you are trying to come up with just becaue you are having a hard time accepting the facts..... Whats next you are going to deny incidents that are in your own books.. and play a game of pick and choose what suits your interest.... like I had pointed out earlier... would Prophet tell us to follow sunnah and nauzubillah not give us the source of it?

I have pointed out a number of lessons that can't be learnt from the incident numerous times... which makes it far more than a wordly thing.... I even pointed out other things besides the land which may have caused her anger... but if you choose to come up with lame excuses to ignore the facts and are will to far enough to insult the holy personalities feel to do so .. You are responsible for your deeds.....

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actually with the evidence available to us it is a sahih hadith

infact its normally narrated in the context of merits of ali b abitalib
as ali was cursed at that time from mimbars of banu ummayyah and said b zayd radiallahanhu was making a show of support for Sayyidna Ali

Chaand Ek Umr Se Safar Men Hai
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i think there might be a link as according to our Ahlay Sunnat brothers all the khalifas were rightly guided. And if Uthman can make blunders and practice high degree of nepotism then why is it too hard to swallow the fact that Abu Bakr (intentionaly or unintentionaly) made a mistake too?

I guess its not easy either as Maulana Maududi found out when he criticized Uthman, Muawiya, Amr Ibn Aas etc, he was instantly accused of following the SHIA ways. And his personal friendship with Syed Khomeini was pointed at by the Sunni ulema of the time.

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^ i think the issue goes deeper than just whether abu bakr made a mistake or not ...if are to follow everything that 12ers say about fadak

u r right though certain nasibi elements criticized maududi sahib for his courageous book khilafat aur malookiat .....and u shud also see the book "maududi khomeni duo bhai"