The hypocrisy of liberals

[decentGuy]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

It is not crude. Its oversimplified, yes. But it is correct. There is no need to be Muslim or follow Islam if the example of our Prophet’s (saw) life is just too perfect. If people cannot use His life as a standard for theirs, what is the point? Why would Allah swt send us His messenger if at the end of the day He never intended for us to follow in His footsteps? Its logic and also a part of Islam.

Also, this is not Pakistan. No blasphemy laws exist here and no one gets burned for speaking about our Prophet (saw).

You were playing with words and constructed a logical fallacy. A classical example is, “can God create a stone so heavy that He himself cannot lift?”. Both a yes or a no to that question will diminish the powers of God. The intent of putting such questions is malignant by design. You did the same there. You have to go into your grave and I’ll go into mine. I pointed something wrong and that’s the limit of my powers. My job is done.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

Put a burqah on and go shopping in a busy market on a Sunday in Pakistan. You’ll understand what people mean.
well you need to read my post again. I never said there is no harrasment in Pakistan. These crimes are everywhere from one corner to the other corner of the world including your west, which means western men are sexually frustrated too. Stop hiding behind Pakistan… sweetheart.

I have never been harassed grocery shopping, never felt the need to protect myself by wearing a burqah and 90% of the time my husband is not with me so I am alone with my toddler.

You are an exception, stats say otherwise.

[aqua70]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Pakistani_Prince

You are an exception, stats say otherwise.

Come on PP, I expected you to know better. The reason the stats are lower in Pakistan is because there is a huge stigma attached with reporting this kind of stuff. You really think any girl is going to go the police if she got sexually harassed on the street considering how much family name and izzat matters in Pakistan? Heck, women are afraid to even tell their own mothers much less the law. Also, if a poor girl does go to the police and the guy in question has connections, is the police even going to file a report?

[ajazali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

You are posting in the religion forum…what is the purpose of this post if not to discuss from a religious angle?

This makes no sense.

ok, but you ignored the other question?

[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Pakistani_Prince

You are an exception, stats say otherwise.

The stats say otherwise because women here can report crimes. They have that right. The key word here is REPORT.

In Pakistan, a woman needs additional guts to report crimes and then another set of guts to face narrow minded people like you.

No woman in Pakistan has ever been able to live her life peacefully after reporting a rape. Here, a woman can get therapy and society will at least put on a show of letting her move on. There - HELL NO.

And no, I am not an exception.

This is everyday, normal life here in the US for women. We do it all alone. Husbands do not act like cab drivers or errand boys. We drive and take care of our own business. We do everything from doctor appointments to grocery shopping alone along with holding down our own jobs and maintaining our homes and kids…majority of the time since husbands are working during business hours. My own mother started working since her 3rd day landing in the US and taught herself how to drive 41 years ago. She had 4 kids in the US and did not rely on my dad to take her places and this was in the city of Chicago…not in a posh suburb of some sort. Same story for most of my friends.

So no, I am not an exception. I am a norm.

Leave Pakistan and learn how the world lives and works. Stop hiding behind Pakistani Islam…which is NOT Islam.

[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@ajazali

ok, but you ignored the other question?

Its a very naive question…do you believe retributive justice is good? I mean, sure its good as it delivers instant justice to the criminal and victim but what happens after that? It doesn’t rehabilitate the criminal or the victim.

[ajazali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

Its a very naive question…do you believe retributive justice is good? I mean, sure its good as it delivers instant justice to the criminal and victim but what happens after that? It doesn’t rehabilitate the criminal or the victim.

What punishment or rehabilitation do you suggest for someone harassing a woman?
what about if he is just staring at women?

[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@ajazali

What punishment or rehabilitation do you suggest for someone harassing a woman?
what about if he is just staring at women?

Public floggings would be appropriate I think and then community service.

I think if he is just staring, a woman should definitely find someone close by to ask for help in case he becomes dangerous. Also, many women are just tired of the stares and end up taking justice into their own hands. They slap them straight across the face…which will eventually happen even more with time when men are allowed to exhibit their sexual frustration with such vulgarity and women are forced to become their objects or sitting ducks.

This whole idea that men cannot control themselves and therefore need to act out is not true. Civilized societies do not behave this way.

[ajazali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

Public floggings would be appropriate I think and then community service.

I think if he is just staring, a woman should definitely find someone close by to ask for help in case he becomes dangerous. Also, many women are just tired of the stares and end up taking justice into their own hands. They slap them straight across the face…which will eventually happen even more with time when men are allowed to exhibit their sexual frustration with such vulgarity and women are forced to become their objects or sitting ducks.

This whole idea that men cannot control themselves and therefore need to act out is not true. Civilized societies do not behave this way.

You are sounding like a conservative or confused here. Please read below.

In Canada there are two different approaches to crime and punishment under debate in which the philosophical differences between liberals and conservatives are clearly in evidence.

In essence liberals believe that man is naturally good; that there is no absolute standard of morality to be taught and adhered to by citizens; and that crime is a product of poverty and deprivation. Thus, society is held responsible for criminal behavior in supposedly having failed to provide for the material needs of the individual who commits crimes, and thereby having engendered the conditions that brought about the corruption of a naturally-good person.

In contrast, social conservatives believe that man is born with a natural capacity for good or evil; that there are absolute moral values (based on traditional religious beliefs and teaching) that need to be inculcated through the family, church, and school, to form an individual of good character and moral values; and that individuals of ill-formed character and defective moral values are responsible for crime, not socio-economic conditions. Conservatives believe that the poor and deprived are not predestined to criminality by their condition; and that individuals have free will and freedom of choice regardless of their particular personal circumstances. Thus, for conservatives, the individual is responsible for his or her criminal acts, and needs to be held accountable for them by society.

From this basic difference in the liberal and conservative views of human nature and the nature of moral values flows a contrasting attitude towards crime and punishment.
Crime and Punishment-Liberal vs Conservative

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

The stats say otherwise because women here can report crimes. They have that right. The key word here is REPORT.

In Pakistan, a woman needs additional guts to report crimes and then another set of guts to face narrow minded people like you.

No woman in Pakistan has ever been able to live her life peacefully after reporting a rape. Here, a woman can get therapy and society will at least put on a show of letting her move on. There - HELL NO.

well “not reported” thing is often blown outta proportion. Every country has its fair share of unrepoted crime, be it Pak or US… So the stats will still remain the same. Just cz you are ignorant does not mean you are right.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@aqua70

Come on PP, I expected you to know better. The reason the stats are lower in Pakistan is because there is a huge stigma attached with reporting this kind of stuff. You really think any girl is going to go the police if she got sexually harassed on the street considering how much family name and izzat matters in Pakistan? Heck, women are afraid to even tell their own mothers much less the law. Also, if a poor girl does go to the police and the guy in question has connections, is the police even going to file a report?

Actually you missed my point… My post was not about stats. My point was… every country has its rotten apples, men in west ain’t no angels either, this is a global issue.
I totally agree with you that there are problems in Pakistan and we need to adress them.

[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Pakistani_Prince

well “reporting” thing is often blown outta proportion. Every country has its fair share of unrepoted crime, be it Pak or US… So the stats will still remain the same. Just cz you are ignorant does not mean you are right.

Yes, a woman reporting crime is always blown out of proportion in Pakistan…that’s why they don’t.

Please stop with the denial…go and live life outside of Pakistan. It will definitely help you.

And my ignorance does not even compare with whatever it is you’ve got going on in your head. Complete denial of the mistreatment of women in Pakistan, human rights violations and the lack of concern for it.

[Reha]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@ajazali

You are sounding like a conservative or confused here. Please read below.

In Canada there are two different approaches to crime and punishment under debate in which the philosophical differences between liberals and conservatives are clearly in evidence.

In essence liberals believe that man is naturally good; that there is no absolute standard of morality to be taught and adhered to by citizens; and that crime is a product of poverty and deprivation. Thus, society is held responsible for criminal behavior in supposedly having failed to provide for the material needs of the individual who commits crimes, and thereby having engendered the conditions that brought about the corruption of a naturally-good person.

In contrast, social conservatives believe that man is born with a natural capacity for good or evil; that there are absolute moral values (based on traditional religious beliefs and teaching) that need to be inculcated through the family, church, and school, to form an individual of good character and moral values; and that individuals of ill-formed character and defective moral values are responsible for crime, not socio-economic conditions. Conservatives believe that the poor and deprived are not predestined to criminality by their condition; and that individuals have free will and freedom of choice regardless of their particular personal circumstances. Thus, for conservatives, the individual is responsible for his or her criminal acts, and needs to be held accountable for them by society.

From this basic difference in the liberal and conservative views of human nature and the nature of moral values flows a contrasting attitude towards crime and punishment.
Crime and Punishment-Liberal vs Conservative

That was actually my personal opinion of how men should be treated when it comes to harassment of females in Pakistan. Judging by the culture there, there isn’t much hope for rehabilitation. From the day a man is born, he is taught he is king. A wild, uncontrollable, uncivilized beast that was born to rule. Who is he supposed to rule? Well, women of course. His anger is justified because he is a man and men cannot control their anger. Even though anger is discouraged in Islam. His lust is justified because he is a man and men are allowed to marry 4 times because even God knows how little self control he has. Despite marriage being the lawful way to satisfy lust, his illicit actions are justified. His violence and disrespect are justified using verses from the Qur’an. Despite there also being counter verses of kindness towards your wife and love, his violence is justified. His ignorance towards his own parents is justified when he brings his wife home and hands her to his parents…“ye hai na…is se kaam karayein apne.” Despite them NOT being a DIL’s responsibility…his ignorance is justified.

Every single sin of his is justified.

In a society where man is literally running around like a wild boar…punishment needs to be severe and swift.

In civilized societies, the rules change.

[Dubaiwali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

Erm, no. Stats don’t remain the same. Do not compare a country like Pakistan with a country like the United States. The USA has a population of 325 million and Pakistan has a population of 193 million. The USA does have its fair share of crimes, but they do get reported a lot more, women aren’t afraid of reporting crimes like rape etc. Yes, the US justice system isn’t the best one out there, but still, in comparison to the Pakistani justice system, it is loads better. Women are more outspoken and vocal in the US. Women are more unified. In general, women are a lot more likely to not put up with misogynistic ****, like women in Pakistan have to put up with.

IN PAKISTAN they had to pass a bill for women’s rights and so many people were against it. Including many brainwashed women, who are okay with their husbands beating them etc. You do not know the realities of how a woman feels being in Pakistan - visiting or otherwise; so cut out the crappy arrogance and ignorance. My own second cousin was sexually abused by my male cousin at a wedding recently, in my own aunt’s house and the girl’s parents out of fear of shame didn’t do anything!! No reporting to the police, no nothing. Pakistan society is full of log kya kaheinge people and the majority of them do not report crimes against women & girls. OUT OF SHAME to the family.

We are not even bringing honour killings into the question and acid attacks. Women can’t marry who they love, women have to take dupatta or else are labelled loose character and whores, women have to go out with a male mahram, even in developed and so-called civilised areas of Pakistan. Women get harassed at work. Women get catcalled whether they’re wearing immodest dresses or abaya and hijabs.

People forget that in Pakistan, a woman or girl child is molested or raped, even at their own residence, by their own relative or family member. They do not even have to go out of the house for it. It has nothing to do with the woman, it has everything to do with the kind of mentality rampant in the society. This is why even little boys and young guys get raped by men in Pakistan. There has been a lot of cases in Kasur and Karachi.

My cousin is a doctor and she sees female patients every other day come in to be treated for injuries from marital rape. Crazy psychotic and sexually frustrated men who bed their wives on the first night in such a violent and disgusting manner, they injure them so badly, with rods and force, they have to be brought in to the hospital. The whole society is ****ed up and women are the end receivers of the consequences. There’s a whole lot of examples if only ignorant and blind men open up their eyes to what goes on in Pakistan.

@Pakistani_Prince

well “not reported” thing is often blown outta proportion. Every country has its fair share of unreported crime, be it Pak or the US… So the stats will still remain the same. Just cuz you are ignorant does not mean you are right.

[Sheeda_Pistol_1]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

From the day a man is born, he is taught he is king.

*This is a man’s world, this is a man’s world
But it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t be nothing
Nothing without a woman or a girl.

*Lyrics from the great Sufi Funk-Soul poet, janab James Brown sahib.I just wanted to throw that in there cos the song just popped up in my head. I know its irrelevant, but this thread has gone all over the places anyway.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Dubaiwali

Erm, no. Stats don’t remain the same. Do not compare a country like Pakistan with a country like the United States. The USA has a population of 325 million and Pakistan has a population of 193 million. The USA does have its fair share of crimes, but they do get reported a lot more, women aren’t afraid of reporting crime like rape. Yes, the US justice system isn’t the best one out there, but still, in comparison to the Pakistani justice system, it is loads better. Women are more outspoken and vocal in the US. Women are more unified. In general, women are a lot more likely to not put up with misogynistic ****, like women in Pakistan have to put up with.

IN PAKISTAN they had to pass a bill for women’s right and so many people were against it. Including many brainwashed women, who are okay with their husbands beating them etc. You do not know the realities of how a woman feels being in Pakistan - visiting or otherwise; so cut out the crappy arrogance and ignorance. My own second cousin was sexually abused by my male cousin at a wedding recently, in my own aunt’s house and the girl’s parents out of fear of shame didn’t do anything!! No reporting to the police, no nothing. Pakistan society is full of log kya kaheinge people and the majority of them do not report crimes against women & girls. OUT OF SHAME to the family.

We are not even bringing honour killings into the question and acid attacks. Women can’t marry who they love, women have to take dupatta or else are labelled loose character and whores, women have to go out with a male mahram, even in developed and so-called civilised areas of Pakistan. Women get harassed at work. Women get catcalled whether they’re wearing immodest dresses or abaya and hijabs.

People forget that in Pakistan, a woman or girl child is molested or raped, even at their own residence, by their own relative or family member. They do not even have to go out of the house for it. It has nothing to do with the woman, it has everything to do with the kind of mentality rampant in the society. This is why even little boys and young guys get raped by men in Pakistan. There has been a lot of cases in Kasur and Karachi.

My cousin is a doctor and she sees female patients every other day come in to be treated for injuries from marital rape. Crazy psychotic and sexually frustrated men who bed their wives on the first night in such a violent and disgusting manner, they injure them so badly, with rods and force, they have to be brought in to the hospital. The whole society is ****ed up and women are the end receivers of the consequences. There’s a whole lot of examples if only ignorant and blind men open up their eyes to what goes on in Pakistan.

Agree to what you said about Pakistan. Disagreement with the bold part.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

[Dubaiwali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

1. Even if they walk free, they do get reported, and have to undergo scrutiny. In America there’s things like a register for sex offenders etc. Is there anything like that in Pakistan, no? In UK, you can’t even touch someone without consent, you get done for - battery and/or harassment. In Pakistan? No.

2. Even if the stats are low and crimes do not get reported, still the crimes that are reported, the figure is way higher than in Pakistan, for women reporting crimes like rape to the police.

@Pakistani_Prince

Agree to what you said about Pakistan. Disagree with the bold part.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Dubaiwali

1. Even if they walk free, they do get reported, and have to undergo scrutiny. In America there’s things like a register for sex offenders etc. Is there anything like that in Pakistan, no? In UK, you can’t even touch someone without consent, you get done for - battery and/or harassment. In Pakistan? No.

2. Even if the stats are low and crimes do not get reported, still the crimes that are reported, the figure is way higher than in Pakistan, for women reporting crimes like rape to the police.

You gotta read the full text darabase first.. They clearly say that 70% of sexual crime goes unreported in US.

[ajazali]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Reha

That was actually my personal opinion of how men should be treated when it comes to harassment of females in Pakistan. Judging by the culture there, there isn’t much hope for rehabilitation. From the day a man is born, he is taught he is king. A wild, uncontrollable, uncivilized beast that was born to rule. Who is he supposed to rule? Well, women of course. His anger is justified because he is a man and men cannot control their anger. Even though anger is discouraged in Islam. His lust is justified because he is a man and men are allowed to marry 4 times because even God knows how little self control he has. Despite marriage being the lawful way to satisfy lust, his illicit actions are justified. His violence and disrespect are justified using verses from the Qur’an. Despite there also being counter verses of kindness towards your wife and love, his violence is justified. His ignorance towards his own parents is justified when he brings his wife home and hands her to his parents…“ye hai na…is se kaam karayein apne.” Despite them NOT being a DIL’s responsibility…his ignorance is justified.

Every single sin of his is justified.

In a society where man is literally running around like a wild boar…punishment needs to be severe and swift.

In civilized societies, the rules change.

Please dont make it life1 thread.
the sexual desires cannot be suppressed with what you are suggesting. Even socalled civilized socities are unable cope with it.
One French woman in eight has been raped, study says - BBC News

[aqua70]

Re: The hypocrisy of liberals

@Pakistani_Prince

Actually you missed my point… My post was not about stats. My point was… every country has its rotten apples, men in west ain’t no angels either, this is a global issue.
I totally agree with you that there are problems in Pakistan and we need to adress them.

Of course, this issue is not limited to one country or place. Men suck everywhere. I kid!!!