Also, I have a hard time understanding why Muslim men feel they are so incapable of self control when there are no examples in our history that show this lack of self control.
No Ahadees that I can think of have depicted our beloved Prophet (saw) falling prey to these desires (Nauzubillah) so what is your excuse? He was a human being (A MAN) and His life was an example for humans on earth. Please do not come back to me and tell me He was too perfect to follow because the very purpose of His existence was to show His Ummah how to live. Not how to come up with excuses.
Its true that men do have stronger sexual desires than women…but it doesn’t mean you can’t walk past a woman without perving. You are absolutely capable of talking to a woman without being reduced to a mass of hormones.
This thread is going all over places but just to chime in to the subject, there are actually very less liberal like real liberals out there. Most often they are just less conservatives or political liberal or leftists (which is not the same as the definition of being liberal). So I just dont know how can someone measure their hypocrisy without meeting the real ones
This thread and the other one centering around how pretty designs on a woman’s kameez is “inciting males” are a real hoot. It’s essentially showing a slippery slope issue. There are actual people here trying to imply that it is the wimminez’s problem that men on the streets leer at them, when it is shown to happen even if the woman in question is covered up in a burqa (which is supposed to be the ~tool of modesty~ that keeps men at bay, but clearly it doesn’t work). These people will do nothing but move the goalposts about what should be done about this issue in regards to what the *woman *should do to fend off males that are harassing her until it is straight up “women should not be allowed to go outside because men are sexually attracted to women and thus if anything happens to her it is her fault.” Trying to hold males accountable is just preposterous to these people, but trying to limit a woman’s life is totally reasonable. Amazing.
Well, was replying to neha, I dint mention religion in OP.
Pakistani society has never been religious conservative in history except some parts of kpk/fata.
practicing status is almost same, hardly 1 percent seen in mosques.
Well are talking about majority. Those rare cases cannot be used to generalize that every Muslim can do that.
lets not bring religion for the sake of argument and do it philosophically.
Infact i did not even mention Islam or religion in OP.
Do you believe retributive justice system is good?
If it was not womens problem it wouldnt be such a big sin.
There is a clear hadith cursing a woman as such, and cursing the man who looks at women..
And sure she is accountable for a man sinful gaze if it happens, and she was well aware of it. adding to it, what is a sinful gaze? what is the difference? do u say a non sinful gaze is allowed on a woman?
well similarly its a womans job to keep herself in an abaya completely, as u say its a mans job to keep it in his pants.
Allah declares women going out as such as fitna, and thus are sure fully responsible.
There is clear order to cover up in Quran which implies direct responsibility.
and such behaviour of going out without covering up is also deemed as wrong and holds responsibility.
You are right in saying that everyone has responsibility, and I do not accept or like the fact when men after doing something wrong/immoral says oh she was such and such…
And I dont really think in this ear men really force women to confirm to something they are not accepting..
What you are saying about a man marrying 4 women is so accurate, but men dont want to take the responsibility but rather just wanna have fun u see.. hence such situations. Its very understanding of you to be saying such in this era lol Even men shy away from saying such.
True liberalism strongly reject retributive justice system. It argues that crimes done by a human are determined by the environment he/she is living. So it makes sense, if liberals say do not criticize / punish a man staring at woman out of sexual desire?
So is exactly the case with sharia law, infact most laws look into environmental circumstances. Liberals perhaps just propagate it and those who r of liberal views inflate their self belief of such perhaps to feel cooler about their believes. but this is in every system.
If this makes a system liberal then perhaps sharia would be classified as most liberal.
and for your info liberals r so confused they dont even know what is or should be a part of it and what not, they r still confused. let them first come to a final conclusion as to what liberalism is then discussing would be more fun, atm its more like what ever the white guys r doing…
Can you cite using authentic (:D) liberal sources that “True liberalism strongly reject retributive justice system.”
and for your info even if “crimes done by a human are determined by the environment he/she is living” is a deciding factor it still doesnt imply that the criminal is not to be punished.. there is no correlation
Yes, they are confused.
well, then we will have to first define who is true liberal. Rejecting death penalty as punishment is common attempt to go against retributive justice system.
Women having jobs is acceptable in our faith. It is the uneducated and ignorant who believe women should not be leaving the house or working or doing anything outside of gol roti daily.
Cursing a woman who dresses provocatively? I am sure there is. But you ALSO mention that there is Ahadees cursing the man who looks at a woman. There is no Hadith where a woman is taking responsibility for a man’s sin and paying for his apparent lack of control.
Also, in Pakistan…women get groped and harassed for being women. Burqah or not, they all get harassed. Its sick.
Her responsibility begins and ENDS at modesty. His lack of control, his weakness of faith, his sins are NOT her responsibility. You have to separate the two because they are two entirely different things. In any society, you WILL have sinners. No one is responsible for another person’s crime. Ultimately, the sinner is the one who pays and cannot get away with “oh, she made me do it.” Children do that, grown men do not. This attitude of men being too stupid or slow to control themselves is ridiculous and makes them look like animals.
My point is…a woman will ONLY pay for HER sins. Lack of modesty may be one of them. But she is NOT responsible for man’s sins. He IS responsible for inappropriate advances, harassment AND giving in to his illicit desires.
Another example: The punishment for adultery in Islam is 100 lashes - MAN OR WOMAN. A woman does not have to take 200 lashes because she lured the man into adultery by showing him a strand of her hair (it seems this is all Muslim men need to lose control judging by this thread). He IS responsible for his sinful actions and pays an equal price.
Her lack of burqah, niqaab or hijaab does not excuse a man’s illicit behavior. He is **required **to control himself and if he cannot, he is allowed to MARRY. Not rape or commit adultery.
It is not crude. Its oversimplified, yes. But it is correct. There is no need to be Muslim or follow Islam if the example of our Prophet’s (saw) life is just too perfect. If people cannot use His life as a standard for theirs, what is the point? Why would Allah swt send us His messenger if at the end of the day He never intended for us to follow in His footsteps? Its logic and also a part of Islam.
Also, this is not Pakistan. No blasphemy laws exist here and no one gets burned for speaking about our Prophet (saw).
Put a burqah on and go shopping in a busy market on a Sunday in Pakistan. You’ll understand what people mean.
I have never been harassed grocery shopping, never felt the need to protect myself by wearing a burqah and 90% of the time my husband is not with me so I am alone with my toddler.
again how many wives did the prophet had?