The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

[Das_Reich]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

**Das bhai, so if they fought Mawiyah, then according to your beleif, they were on right. Hai na?:halo:
**

**

[/quote]

Kharijites you mean ?
OMG Bhai that is the approach of simpletons
no they were not right in what they believed in but they were atleast sincere in their intentions so were still better than the hypocrites (syrians )

as far as forming sects in Islam is concerned …those who broke away from the majority of the muslim community accusing the caliph of murder are to be held responsible for sectarianism
**

[BOY-NICE]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

@Iconoclast

So now you call a muslim, non-muslim, you put urself in trouble.

A muslim may follow a school of thought that he/she finds is the right one, but he is under no obligation what so ever to put a label upon him/herself.

Thats exactly what I have been saying, that we all are Muslims, calling oneself Sunni, Shia, Deobandi, Brelvi etc doesnt mean that they are no longer Muslims, alhamdulilah we all are Muslims but since there exists differences among them therefore the names Shia, Sunni, Brelvi etc are givven just for IDENTIFICATION purpose.

And my words which you have quoted, I never meant to call someone a non-muslim rather my intention was to make her understand the very thing that we are all Muslims and calling someone Shia, Sunni, Brelvi etc doesnt make one non-Muslim as these all are representing Islam on the basis of their own interpretation. But if still someone is adamant and claim that he/she is just Muslim and do not follow any fiqh (i.e he neither believe in Khulfa Rashdeen or Aimah Tahrieen, nor in praying salat with open hands nor with hand tied neither in Saha Satta nor in Usool Arba etc etc) that means he/she is NOT from any (school of) Muslims. I hope i make my point clear to you.

[quote]
But may be u will not buy it, coz ur Quran is hidden somewhere, go find it out.
[/quote]

I really dont know what did you mean by that, my Quran is well placed in just next room :)

[OMG]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

@BOY-NICE

Acha hai aapko yaad rahi yeh baat , mujhay nehen kahni pari

Oh yeah, Its a fact that Shia doesnot believe in this present Quran and think that it is manipulated.

Taking once own literal meanings of Quran and then beat about the bush certainly makes one narrow minded. And if you are sectless which means neither you pray with open hands nor with closed, neither you believe in khilafat e Rashda nor in Aimah Tahireen etc that means

you are something but Muslim :S If you do chose something from these options then you cant run away from being ‘named’ because both of these categories have certain ‘names’ for them.

Allah said in Quran.:

There are two types of verses. First is order. Second is examples. True believers take Orders literaly and the one who are sick by heart get into examples and fabricate falsetruth to disturb the religion.

If I am sectless it doesnot mean I had not read the Muslim history. I believe in both Khulfa-e Rashideen and Aimah-e Karaam.

But it is not the part of our religion to fight upon Khulfa aur Aimah.

I pray like our Prophet was used to pray. Simple.

Obviously, otherwise only a insane will be following a school of thought which he himself knows is corrupted

Yeah. Thats what Shia think. Thats what Barelvi think. Thats what Wahabi think. Thats what Naqshbandi think. Keep thinking.

There isnt a single thing which we say is not backed by proof but for Sahaba worshippers, any proof will mean nothing and will always remain suspicious about us. Casting suspicions in Islam is forbidden

And you dont have any right to say anything to Shia at this topic since Khawarij and Nawasib are not only prasied by your ulema but they are the one from you learn your religion.

Kuwarij were cursed by Sayyed Ali Hijweri Dataa Ganj Bakhsh :rehm: Dataa Ganj Bakhsh is Sayyed from Sayyedna Hassan :razi:

And sahabah differed in the way Prophet offered salah and subscribed to different beliefs, while according to you following different schools of thought is forbidden in Islam This is sufficient proof to water down the flawed interpretation of those verses by you.

Btw , He [s] used to perform sajdah on sajdagah, we do it likewise, do you perform it in this manner

Well. Sahaba didnot differented in the way of Salaah. It happened quite after that time. When Shia sect was formed.

Thats exactly what I have been saying, that we all are Muslims, calling oneself Sunni, Shia, Deobandi, Brelvi etc doesnt mean that they are no longer Muslims, alhamdulilah we all are Muslims but since there exists differences among them therefore the names Shia, Sunni, Brelvi etc are givven just for IDENTIFICATION purpose.

But you said that Shias are going to heaven only and the rest are going to hell? Now stick to your opinion and don’t play with words.

](http://islamicity.com/mosque/quran/22.htm#78)22:78 And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

Thanks sharing it brother.:k:

[deer]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

ughh... can we just leave well enough alone!!

this is such a sore point with muslims! really its tearing us apart in times when we need to be united!!!! We really need to get over it! i only say this b/c remember "divide and conquer" just know when we bicker like this we make oursleves such easy prey!!!!

So shia's believe in something different then sunni's! they dont believe int eh first 3 caliphs, only the last 4th one! Historical facts they existed, no ones disputing this - but clearly for shia's they are not significant players in Islam. Really to each thier own belief! Noone is hurt b/c the chritians dont believ int eh last prophet, or b/c hte jews dont believe in jesus! It doesnt matter!!!!

So sunni's believe in dfferent hadith's and cherish the first 3 caliph's - it doesnt matter!!! like i said to each thier own! it thier belief!!!

we all agree on one god! and the last prophet - that is the tenent of islam that god wnated us to have and believe - i.e. the belief in one god! and the book the holy koran! which we all respect!!!

the only reason there is divison in islam and friction b/t hte sects is b/c we make it so.... if we get over it..and stop demanding that everyone be just like us..then i think things would be fine! we could all share the religion and no one would be hurt!!!

as for your Q NBN - this s a very laden question! but my understanding is that all shia's don't believe the first 3 caliph's to be key players in Islam!

we have to understand that any religion that is not our own will be wrong to us!!! but why cant you all then see that it is exactly so for the other person too! the person u think is wrong...thinks u are just as wroong! so why not just accept that we are all diferent! we subscribe to different beliefs and that i am not holier than thou..repeat after me.... i am not hollier then thou!!

[BOY-NICE]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

@OMG

Oh yeah, Its a fact that Shia doesnot believe in this present Quran and think that it is manipulated.

Oh so get you hallucinations! So no wonder why you make one foolish and baseless comment after another. If Shia doesnt believe in this present quran and think that its manipulated then the facts also show that sahaba, tabaeen and early ulema too didnt believe in this Quran and that list include Ayesha, Hafsa, Umar, Ubai bin Kaab, Ibn Masud etc etc (right from Saha Satta)

Allah said in Quran.:

There are two types of verses. First is order. Second is examples. True believers take Orders literaly and the one who are sick by heart get into examples and fabricate falsetruth to disturb the religion.

If I am sectless it doesnot mean I had not read the Muslim history. I believe in both Khulfa-e Rashideen and Aimah-e Karaam.

Thats what I have been saying which i will reiterate that you have made your individual ‘school’ or views on Islam and have not yet deicded which path to adopt. Which is simply called in Urdu ‘Adha Teetar Adha Batair’.

But it is not the part of our religion to fight upon Khulfa aur Aimah.

First of all you do not represent any shool of thought so dont use “our” use “my” since you have seperate belieefs from all mainstream Muslims. As for Khulfa or Aimah, I am not saying to fight over i rather this is the basic thing which sets the ‘source’ of deriving one’s teachings of religion hence plays an important role.

I pray like our Prophet was used to pray. Simple.

Thats why I say that you live in illusions. And how can u claim that its only you who pray like Prophet and rest of the schools of thought are not? My point was that difference existed between Sahaba and Tabaeen about the method of Prophet’s prayers, so according to your pathetic logic which says all schools of though are bound to Hell, then your takfeer also falls on Sahaba and Tabaeen.

Yeah. Thats what Shia think. Thats what Barelvi think. Thats what Wahabi think. Thats what Naqshbandi think. Keep thinking.

You forget to mention yourself in between :)?

Kuwarij were cursed by Sayyed Ali Hijweri Dataa Ganj Bakhsh :rehm: Dataa Ganj Bakhsh is Sayyed from Sayyedna Hassan :razi:

Data might have been a saint but he was not considered authority in Islamic teachings while the people I am talking about are considered authority in Islamic teachings (as a source) and Data himself followed those people. And the very pioneer authoritative people NEVER disown Khawarij and Nawasib rather hadeeth narrated from them are found in all 6 principle books of a school of thought.

Well. Sahaba didnot differented in the way of Salaah. It happened quite after that time. When Shia sect was formed.

Above you claimed that you have read history and now you come up with such a impudent claim! There are statements of Sahaba where Prophet wipied his feet during obulation while some say he wasdhed it, some Tabaeen sued to tie their hands during salaat while some used to put their hands straight etc etc. And since you being your individual and strange logic that all the difference of opinions (i.e different schools of thoughts) are bound to Hell therefore your edict on Sahaba and Tabaeen can easily be deduced.

As for the opinions you maintain about the ‘formation of Shia sect’ on the basis of Nasibi websites and clergy, I shal tell you the ‘Shia beliefs’ existed right in the era of Prophet [s] but it was just ‘named’ as a ‘Shia’ later on when people decided their ways opposit to Ahlulbayt [as].

But you said that Shias are going to heaven only and the rest are going to hell? Now stick to your opinion and don’t play with words.

I dont know where did I say that Shias are not going to heaven about which you are making so much noise? I still abide by my words based on “hadeeths” present not only in my books but in the books of my opponents as well

[OMG]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

1. Ahl-e Bait were not Shia.

2. Sahaabas were not Barelvi.

3. Sayyedna Mohammad :saw: was not Wahabi.

The end.

4. I have read all Hadeeth Books as well as Nehjul Balagha (Words of Sayyedna Ali ) In Nehjul Balagha he had cursed Kofies and (so called) Shiyan-e Ali. (Friends like enemies.)

If you read his speeches regarding his last few years of Khilafat, you will come to know.

5. All Prophets preached Islam only.

6. All decendents of all Prophets are Ahl-e bait.

7. Khuwarijies made people to kill Sayyedna Uthmaan then Sayyedna Ali . And you think those people are right?

8. Those Khuwarijies were killed right after in the era of Sayyedna Mawiyah due to their strickt and narrow minded believes. All were wiped up. Khalaas…

9…Those Khuwarijies didnot allow their Masoom Khalifa to accept a human suggestion. WT*

[BOY-NICE]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

@OMG

1. Ahl-e Bait were not Shia.

Thats is the thing, you dont know the meaning of Shia still pretend to know all which leads to humiliation. There were the followers of Ahlulbayt [as] which in simple arabic/urdu are called Shian e Ahulbayt [as], who have been prasied and have been given glad tidings. So whatever you think of (true) Shia of Ahlubayt [as] wont make any difference any longer.

2. Sahaabas were not Barelvi.

3. Sayyedna Mohammad :saw: was not Wahabi.

The end.

Thats not even my claim Barelvi and Wahabiyat started much later in fact just few centuried ago.

4. I have read all Hadeeth Books as well as Nehjul Balagha (Words of Sayyedna Ali ) In Nehjul Balagha he had cursed Kofies and (so called) Shiyan-e Ali. (Friends like enemies.)

Yeah and had you bothered to ponder into the history you would come to know that those Shiyan e Ali mainly comrised of those people who deemed him 4th caliph not first Imam So if he cursed those people , no wonder as they later on called Ahle Sunnah. Read Shah Abdul Aziz Muhadith Dehalwi’s anti-Shia book Tuhfa Asna Ashari.

If you read his speeches regarding his last few years of Khilafat, you will come to know.

5. All Prophets preached Islam only.

6. All decendents of all Prophets are Ahl-e bait.

I never claimed that all prophets preached something else and as for the Ahlulbayt [as], there are tons of Shia sources which are suffice to tell who are Ahulbayt and who are not, of course descendents are Ahlulbayt [as] but not all, only chosen ones.

7. Khuwarijies made people to kill Sayyedna Uthmaan

There were no Khawarij at the time of murder of Uthman. Make your facts straight.

And you think those people are right?

I thought you only get hallucination but it takes you to the point of insanity , i didnt know that. All I have been shouting till now is that your pioneer ulema deemed Khawarij to be reliable source of hadeeth and it is YOUR principle hadith books which are filled with the Hadeeths narrated by those Khawarij and Nawasib yet you are attributing this blasphemous act to me? Hilarious!

[AQ]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

@BOY-NICE

as for the Ahlulbayt [as], there are** tons of Shia sources** which are suffice to tell who are Ahulbayt and who are not, of course descendents are Ahlulbayt [as] but not all, only chosen ones.

tons of Shia Sources…

I guess, you have a upper hand chief… I only have Quran to define the word Ahl-e-Bayt for me, which it defines as Prophet’s (:saw: )wives .. Only one source… too bad for me.. innit?

[Iconoclast]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

[QUOTE]
If Shia doesnt believe in this present quran and think that its manipulated then the facts also show that sahaba, tabaeen and early ulema too didnt believe in this Quran and that list include Ayesha, Hafsa, Umar, Ubai bin Kaab, Ibn Masud etc etc (right from Saha Satta) :)

[/QUOTE]

With this qoute of Boy Nice, i rest my case.

[Sheraz_CT]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

@Anwaar Qureshi

tons of Shia Sources…

I guess, you have a upper hand chief… I only have Quran to define the word Ahl-e-Bayt for me, which it defines as Prophet’s (:saw: )wives .. Only one source… too bad for me.. innit?

yes too bad for you..too bad you don’t believe what sahih muslim say about Ahle bait

[AQ]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

@Sheraz CT

yes too bad for you..too bad you don’t believe what sahih muslim say about Ahle bait

I do believe in it as it is mentioned in a hadeeth I read that Prophet:saw: said Ali:razi: and Fatimah:razi2: are my extended family (Part of Ahl-e-Bayt)… the point was that Ahl-e-Bayt is not only the family of a son-in-law… Ahl-e-Bayt = Ghar waalaY - in simple urdu - meaning your wife who lives with you… and Quran defines them as such… My first criteria is Quran… and if that is too bad in your eyes, then congratulation.

[nstar777]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

@Anwaar Qureshi

I do believe in it as it is mentioned in a hadeeth I read that Prophet:saw: said Ali:razi: and Fatimah:razi2: are my extended family (Part of Ahl-e-Bayt)… the point was that Ahl-e-Bayt is not only the family of a son-in-law… Ahl-e-Bayt = Ghar waalaY - in simple urdu - meaning your wife who lives with you… and Quran defines them as such… My first criteria is Quran… and if that is too bad in your eyes, then congratulation.

Brothers & Sisters: Please stop this argueing and fighting. Leave it up to GOD to judge who is right and who is wrong. For now concentrate on things which unite us and not divide us. I am sure we can find some commonality between the Sunnis and Shias like GOD ALMIGHTY AND THE LOVE AND RESPECT FOR OUR BELOVED PROPHET (P.B.U.H.) May Allah forgive our sins and guide us to the right path. Ameeen

[BOY-NICE]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

@Iconoclast

If Shia doesnt believe in this present quran and think that its manipulated then the facts also show that sahaba, tabaeen and early ulema too didnt believe in this Quran and that list include Ayesha, Hafsa, Umar, Ubai bin Kaab, Ibn Masud etc etc (right from Saha Satta)

With this qoute of Boy Nice, i rest my case

I dont know what are you trying to say but sorry to see that you have deliberately ‘deleted’ the first sentence of mine which was also the part of this paragraph rather the epitome of my point

@Anwaar Qureshi

tons of Shia Sources…

I guess, you have a upper hand chief… I only have Quran to define the word Ahl-e-Bayt for me, which it defines as Prophet’s (:saw: )wives .. Only one source… too bad for me.. innit?

Of course the entire books of this world cannot take place of Holy Quran but if the word Ahlulbayt indeed defines you as prophet’s wives then you need to check its context and detail as well and cannot just stick to single verse out of context ( the actual story/reasons behind).

[AQ]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

^ read my reply to brother Sheraz for my position on this issue

[Sheraz_CT]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

please read this hadith from sahih muslim....read it carefully because there are couple of very eye opening facts in it

*Book 031, Number 5915: *
This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

[Sheraz_CT]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

Allah gawah hai..i really really love this hadith

[AQ]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

^
that’s exactly what I said… they are part of his family… I believe in that but my point is that Rasoolulah:saw: specifically metnioned them as a family meant that they were given the status of being in his family. I will never go against this hadeeth. My love for them will never decrease and my love and respect for the wives of prophet:saw: will also never take them out of his family.

[Sheraz_CT]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

*Book 031, Number 5920: *Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.

[Sheraz_CT]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

also there is a hadith..we call it hadith e kissa...its also in sunni books i believe
Prophet bring Imam Ali (a.s.) Bibi Fatima (a.s.)..Imam Hassan (a.s.) and Imam Hussain (a.s.) under a chaadar and says They are my family..one of His Wives also wanted to join but he said No..i don't know the exact words of Prophet (pbuh&up) but he said No you have your own place

i have posted that hadith also here before...

[Das_Reich]

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

7

[quote]
.

Khuwarijies made people to kill Sayyedna Uthmaan

lol…pure fiction

8. Those Khuwarijies were killed right after in the era of Sayyedna Mawiyah due to their strickt and narrow minded believes. All were wiped up. Khalaas…

kharijites revolted in the reign of alomost every caliph after their formation