The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

[QUOTE]
I think this is the hadith you talking about..

The Book Pertaining to the Merits of the Companions

Book 031, Number 5916:
Sa'd reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying to 'Ali: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses?

Source

Damn, you guys are good at lying and fabricating proofs.
[/QUOTE]

No I am not talking about this hadith.
Here is the refferences of this hadith in Arabic and English version plz read ur real books.

Arabic Version ; Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of
Virtues of Ali, Arabic, v4, p1871, Tradition #32.

English Version ; see Chapter CMXCVI, p1284,
Tradition #5916
Here is the Arabic text of the above tradition given by Sahih Muslim:

/ . | || : . | | . | : | |
()_e,o |_o ||_o_9 |]_e_w . |,9_w _,| . _, 4, q |e_o _o |
(| () : (_S. (). : / /

| ^ | | ^ .. / . | | | || : . | : || | | : |
|, ||, ., _) > |_o |_o | ||_o_9 .,| _,|| |,| .,_w, . |
/ (| . / . . ()

                        |     | .      | ||   |          |       || :
                  4_,_w |  . _|_9    4_|_||   | q_w    4_|  . _8_||_o
                   .      (_)               (_| /   /      (_)

Here is one more reference in Sahih Muslim about Sunnah cursing Imam Ali
(AS),

The Governor of Medina who was one of the members of the house of
Marwan called Sahl Ibn Sa'd, and ordered him to curse Ali. But Sahl
refused to do so. The governor said: "If you don't want to curse Ali,
just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of Ali)." Sahl said: "Ali
did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and Ali used
to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab."
Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of
Virtues of Ali, Arabic version, v4, p1874, Tradition #38.

Arabic text;

   |          | T          |     : .       ||     |      |    :    |
  .  | q  _o    | |  . _o    |_7   4_,_, ]_o_||    _|_c    |_o_e_,_w |
 (_)   / /    (_|   (_)    (_|. /     :         (_S      (_|

  |   |      :  ^        |        | .                   |      |     .
  |_,_|_c   o_,_w_,   .  |  o  _o |_9    ]_e_w   . _,   |_8_w  |_c ]_9
   :       (     :   (_)      /                 (_).  (_|

| || | | : . .. | . | | | | || : . | | .
4_||| . _e| |o_9 .,,,| > | |_o | 4| ||o_9 |_8_w _,|_9
() (| : . (| (_| (_S.

||       |      |     |        | /|     |       || : .      | :  |||  |

4_,|| .,_7| o_w | _|_e, . |)|_o |_8_w ||_o_9 .,| _,|||,|
: . ( (_S . () (| (| . / .

| | . | . | | / | | : || |
|8, c > | > | _7 _9,| . |) . | q ._,| _,|| ,| . _o
. (_S ( / : () () / . / (S. ()

22

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

Shia sect was created by Abdullah Bin Saba (a hipocrate) in Iran. Its totally a non-Arabic sect. It was generated in the era of Sayyedna Umer :razi: when Islamic army concured Iran. Iranies wanted to take revenge so they started this sect.

This sect is quite hipocrate. Pretending to be lovers of decendents of Bani Hashim but innerly their main point is to use Bani Hashim’s (so called love) to create disturbence among muslims by false blames on companions of Rasool:saw:

Those Shia turned into Khuwarij when Sayyedna Ali :razi: signed an agreement with Sayyedna Mawiyah :razi:. They said that Khalifah is from Allah and he shouldnot accept any human order/advice/suggestion. Now Sayyedna Ali :razi: has signed an agreement and accepted a human suggestion so he is not pure anymore and he has broken Allah’s law. So it is due to murder him. (Nauz bi-llah) And they killed him in the month of Ramadan. WT*

Various authentic sourses including Nehjul Balagha (words of Sayyedna Ali :razi: )Enough said.

23

Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

I dont know how is it a sunnah of cursing Ali radiAllaahuanha, well a layman can understand that Ali had a high stature and given to Hazrath Ali by the Prophet radiAllaahuanha, well i feel its again mis understanding of the Hadith.

Anyone cursing the Sahaba of the Prophet is into Hellfire according to Authentic Hadith of the Prophet.

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

It is a fact that Amir Muwaia introduced tabbarah on Hazrat Ali in friday sermons which was stopped by Umar bin Abdul Aziz! He replaced it with the aya of quran which is still recited in friday surmon.

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

[quote=OMG]

First Shias actually were the one who took part in the conquest of Iran in the time of Umar(ra)…Iran was mainly sunni till 16th century

here u contradict yourself kharijites were mainly arabs too

Kharijites accepted only first 2 caliphs as entirely rightful …so how can they be shias?

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

is that in bewley's book too?
far from it ...he was among the ones called the "Tulaqa " a freed one by the muhajireen and ansar

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

Remember, Shia sect was started in the era of Sayyedna Umer :razi: and Khuwarij was generated in the era of Sayyedna Ali. :razi: Those Arabs were Iraqi and Shaami Arabs.

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

Joke of the century, believe me!!:smiley: I think either OMG is extremely ignorant of the historical facts since his (nasibi) clergy never told them the “hidden truths” of their school or he is simply hilarious.

It is a common sense that the founder of the madhab has overwhelming influence in the teachings of that particular madhab . Its a challenge to the nasibi world to bring “Single” hadith/statement from Abdullah ibn Saba from shia source if they are true in their claim!

On the other hand we see that the pioneer imams of Ahle Sunnah deemed the known Nasibi and Khariji schoalrs as ‘athority’ over them and over their school of thought and all 6 principle books of ahle sunnah are filled with open nasibi and khariji narratros/scholars/jurists.

So its easy now to know who is the founder of who!! :slight_smile:

The school of thought that ‘claim’ to love Ahulbayt [as] but deem the all time enemies of ahlulbayt [as] as the most ‘reliable’ and ‘revered’ source of driving teachings of their school looks to be more hypocrite.

As stated above by me, it is indeed pitty that your clregy tell you people that Khawarij were enemies of Ali bin Abi Talib [as] i dont know why they (deliberately) forget to tell you that the foundations of your school of thought is mainly based on Khawarij and your ulema are proud of that since they praised khawarij and deemed them a better and reliable source to take the teachings of your school. For example:

Imam Dhahabi recorded similar stance from Imam Abu Dawood

قال أبو داود ليس في أهل الأهواء أصح حديثا من الخوارج ثم ذكر عمران بن حطان وأبا إحسان الأعرج

**Abu Dawood said: “Among the desired followers, there are no one more authentic in hadith than the khawarij, then he mentioned Umran bin Hatan and ****Aba **Ehsan al-A’raj
Siar Alam alNubala, Volume 4 page 214]

Ibn Tamiyah records:

**[RIGHT]ليسوا ممن يتعمد الكذب بل هم معروفون بالصدق حتى يقال إن حديثهم من أصح الحديث[/RIGHT]

“…they are not of those who lie on purpose, they are known as truthful ones, even it has been said about them that their hadith is amongst the most reliable hadiths”
Minhaj as Sunnah, Volume 1 page 68 كتب شيخ الإسلام تقي الدين أحمد بن تيمية و تلميذه إبن القيم الجوزية](كتب شيخ الإسلام تقي الدين أحمد بن تيمية و تلميذه إبن القيم الجوزية)

====
So please further enquire from your schoolars about the close affinity your school of thougth enjoys with khawarij and nawasib and do not ‘claim’ anything from your ownside since it may leed you to further humiliation.
**

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

  1. I am not a guy.

  2. I don't follow any sect. You are out.

  3. Again, showing (so called) love of Bani Hashim and hatered for companions. WT*

[QUOTE]

Abu Dawood said: “Among the desired followers, there are no one more authentic in hadith than the khawarij, then he mentioned Umran bin Hatan and **Aba ***Ehsan al-A'raj*
[/QUOTE]

Is this Hadeeth authentic? Who is quoting this? (Riwayat) and 2. Durayat (Comparison with Prophet attitude)

Our Prophet never appreciated any sect. Infact, in his era there was no sect. Our Prophet didnot follow or preach any sect. He predicted about 72/73 sect but didnot order us to make/adopt any.

How he would appreciate Khuwarij?

And hey, I have read about Khuwarij in "Khashf-ul Mahjoob" by Sayyed Ali Hijweri Daataa Ganj Bakhsh. He had cursed those khuwarij.

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

  1. ok

  2. If you do not follow any sect then you are misguiding your ownself but thats a different debate, my point was that if you are among those who follow 6 hadith books considered most authentic after Quran namely Sahih Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmizi, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood then you have no basis to denounce Nawasib or Khawarij since all othse these 6 books contain hadeeths narrated by various Khariji and Nasibi narrators who were deemed Thiqa/Seduq/Hujjah/pious/scholar/jurist by the clergy.

  3. Why hadeeth you are talking about ? I havent quoted any hadith rather the statements of ulema from Rijal books. As for Hajweri, I was am talking about pioneer ulema who the Hajweri himself followed.

  4. Yes the Prophet of Islam [s] indeed forbade us from making sects but do not forget that He [s] predicted that there will be 73 sects amongst them only ONE will be able to attain paradise, so there remains nothing to make fuss over since there HAS TO BE ONE SECT which will be on right path otherwise your logic would suggest that all of the Muslims are bound to remain aloof from salvation/paradise.

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

boy-nice..just be careful..the poster is so ignorant that sometimes you just dont know where to start..so it could get really frustrating really soon

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

yeah I just figured that out :)

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

shammi syrian arabs fought with muawiyah
Kufa was where most shias came from a garrison town founded to house muslim warriors

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

  1. He predicted only.

  2. He didnot order us to create/adopt any.

  3. Which one is going to paradise?

  4. Are you sure that your sect is chosen one?

  5. Which sect did he practiced or preached?

  6. How come his wives are not counted in Ahl-e Bait? :rolleyes:

Ok. Let me quote few verses of holy quran.:stuck_out_tongue:

Inna allatheena farraqoo deenahum wakanoo shiyaAAan lasta minhum fee shayin innama amruhum ila Allahi thumma yunabbiohum bima kanoo yafAAaloona

6:159 VERILY, as for those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects - thou hast nothing to do with them. [161] Behold, their case rests with God: and in time He will make them understand what they were doing.

Mina allatheena farraqoo deenahum wakanoo shiyaAAan kullu hizbin bima ladayhim farihoona

30:32 [or] among those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects, each group delighting in but what they themselves hold [by way of tenets]. [29]

Wama tafarraqoo illa min baAAdi ma jaahumu alAAilmu baghyan baynahum walawla kalimatun sabaqat min rabbika ila ajalin musamman laqudiya baynahum wainna allatheena oorithoo alkitaba min baAAdihim lafee shakkin minhu mureebin

42:14 And [as for the followers of earlier revelation,] they broke up their unity, out of mutual jealousy, only after they had come to know [the truth]. [15] And had it not been for a decree that had already gone forth from thy Sustainer, [postponing all decision] until a term set [by Him], all would indeed have been decided between them [from the outset]. As it is, behold, they who have inherited their divine writ from those who preceded them are [now] in grave doubt, amounting to suspicion, about what it por*tends.

** SharaAAa lakum mina alddeeni ma wassa bihi noohan waallathee awhayna ilayka wama wassayna bihi ibraheema wamoosa waAAeesa an aqeemoo alddeena wala tatafarraqoo feehi kabura AAala almushrikeena ma tadAAoohum ilayhi Allahu yajtabee ilayhi man yashao wayahdee ilayhi man yuneebu**

42:13 In matters of faith, [12] He has ordained for you that which He had enjoined upon Noah - and into which We gave thee [O Muhammad] insight through revelation [13] as well as that which We had enjoined upon Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus: Steadfastly uphold the [true] faith, and do not break up your unity therein. [14] [And even though] that [unity of faith] to which thou callest them appears oppressive to those who are wont to ascribe to other beings or forces a share in His divinity, God draws unto Himself everyone who is willing, and guides unto Himself everyone who turns unto Him.

WaiAAtasimoo bihabli Allahi jameeAAan wala tafarraqoo waothkuroo niAAmata Allahi AAalaykum ith kuntum aAAdaan faallafa bayna quloobikum faasbahtum biniAAmatihi ikhwanan wakuntum AAala shafa hufratin mina alnnari faanqathakum minha kathalika yubayyinu Allahu lakum ayatihi laAAallakum tahtadoona

3:103 And hold fast, all together, unto the bond with God, and do not draw apart from one another. And remember the blessings which God has bestowed upon you: how, when you were enemies, He brought your hearts together, so that through His blessing you became brethren; and [how, when] you were on the brink of a fiery abyss. [79] He saved you from it. In this way God makes clear His messages unto you, so that you might find guidance,

:slight_smile: Have you read Holy Quran with translation or you just read it to get Sawaab?
**
Das bhai**, so if they fought Mawiyah, then according to your beleif, they were on right. Hai na?:halo:

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

So His prediction doesnt means anything to you? strange! If he predicted then it has to come true. And He predicted that only ONE sect amongst different will attain paradise, that is not in contradiction to the verses you are quoting bacause the sect which Prophet [s] referred to, will not be a ‘deliberately made sect’ rather it will be following the true/actual terachings of Holy Prophet [s] and would be having ‘name’ just for IDENTIFICATION purpose, to make it unique from others.

As above.

As above, plus the one which completely adhered to Ahlulbayt [as].

Alhamdulilah, there are traditions to that effect as well.

The difference of opinions emerged right after his death during the era of sahabah and Tabaeen and people interpreted the sayings of Holy Prophet in different manner, some believed it correct to combine the prayers some not, some believed to put turbah/sajdagah during sajdah in prayers while some not etc etc and the very groups were then got ‘names’ just for IDENTIFICATION purpose and the deliberate attemp to make sects in Islam you are referring to is like Qadiyanies etc who have specefic agenda. But if you are still adamant to pose the verses to all sects the the counting will start right from the era of sahabah and Tabaeen.

Thats completely a different and huge topic.

No need to cite these verses , i know about them but since you because of your narraow-mindedness stick to your own flawed interpretation of verses and do not look into a bigger picture therefore I will again repeat what I stated above.

The verses you are referring to are about deliberate attempt to make disunity in Islam, if you are of the opinion that all ‘schools of thought’ (not using word sect since you are narrow-minded with that word) fall in that category then your takfeer campaign will begin right from the era of sahabah and tabaeeen. :slight_smile:

Remember, Prophet predicted about ONE sect amongst others which will be on the right path. If he predicted then it has to come true. And if He predicted that only ONE sect amongst different will attain paradise, then is not in contradiction to the verses you are quoting bacause the sect which Prophet [s] referred to, will not be a ‘deliberately made sect’ rather it will be following the true/actual terachings of Holy Prophet [s] and would be having ‘name’ just for IDENTIFICATION purpose, to make it unique from others.

The difference of opinions emerged right after his death during the era of sahabah and Tabaeen and people interpreted the sayings of Holy Prophet in different manner, some believed it correct to combine the prayers some not, some believed to put turbah/sajdagah during sajdah in prayers while some not etc etc and the very groups were then got ‘names’ just for IDENTIFICATION purpose and the deliberate attemp to make sects in Islam you are referring to is like Qadiyanies etc who have specefic agenda. But if you are still adamant to pose the verses to all sects the the counting will start right from the era of sahabah and Tabaeen.

So never be solcaed in parroting the Quran unless you use your brain and thats what Quran has itself asked number of occasions i.e to ponder/ ude brains :slight_smile:

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

LOL…Khud naheen badaltay. Quran ko badal detay hai. (Allama Iqbal)

1.Well I am not narrowminded. I don’t practice/preach any sect because Sayyedna Mohammad didnot.

  1. All sects claim to be the chosen one with prooves.:stuck_out_tongue:

  2. Shia sect put FALSE blames on companions as well as on Mothers of believers. To put a false blame in Islam is forbidden.:stuck_out_tongue:

  3. Sayyedna Mohammad :saw: said that to offer the SalaaH, follow my way. Offer tha Salaah as I have offered.

I will not commen on SECTISM anymore. Ending this debate with this verse.

30:32 [or] among those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects, each group delighting in but what they themselves hold [by way of tenets]. [29]

Musharraf summoned before SC
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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

who are you to say they are false claims? sunni books mention these things as well...there were good companions and wives as well..why don't we say anything to Bibi Khadija or Bibi Salma?
this is why Prophet (pbuh&up) said He is leaving behind Quran and Ahlebait..warna har aira ghaira apni tarah Quran ko interpret karega

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

Acha hai aapko yaad rahi yeh baat , mujhay nehen kahni pari :slight_smile:

Taking once own literal meanings of Quran and then beat about the bush certainly makes one narrow minded. And if you are sectless which means neither you pray with open hands nor with closed, neither you believe in khilafat e Rashda nor in Aimah Tahireen etc that means you are something but Muslim :S If you do chose something from these options then you cant run away from being ‘named’ because both of these categories have certain ‘names’ for them.

Obviously, otherwise only a insane will be following a school of thought which he himself knows is corrupted :stuck_out_tongue:

There isnt a single thing which we say is not backed by proof but for Sahaba worshippers, any proof will mean nothing and will always remain suspicious about us. Casting suspicions in Islam is forbidden :slight_smile:

And you dont have any right to say anything to Shia at this topic since Khawarij and Nawasib are not only prasied by your ulema but they are the one from you learn your religion.

And sahabah differed in the way Prophet offered salah and subscribed to different beliefs, while according to you following different schools of thought is forbidden in Islam :slight_smile: This is sufficient proof to water down the flawed interpretation of those verses by you.

Btw , He [s] used to perform sajdah on sajdagah, we do it likewise, do you perform it in this manner :slight_smile:

As you wish, aap apni dairgh inch ki masjid bana kar khush rahain :slight_smile:

Will end at the wonderful concept Holy Quran has given us:

[Yusufali 109:6] To you be your Way, and to me mine.

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias...please help...

Do we have anything better to do?

If it was a thread regarding opinion of schools about Qadiyanies, Bihaies, Khalifa Rashadies, Pervezies and likes, I would have jumped in the bandwagon but not for this one... Obviously there are difference of opinion and hence the two different sets of beliefs although the pre-requiste beliefs on Iman are same and that's the reason...

get over it.

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Re: The Four Imams and their opinions on shias…please help…

So now you call a muslim, non-muslim, you put urself in trouble.

A muslim may follow a school of thought that he/she finds is the right one, but he is under no obligation what so ever to put a label upon him/herself.

22:78 And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help! [INDENT]But may be u will not buy it, coz ur Quran is hidden somewhere, go find it out.[/INDENT]