Re: the existence of
He can be illiterate AND still have wisdom. Those are not mutually exclusive. The book appears to have similar message as earlier books. Nothing out of ordinary. It has some new thoughts. Par for the course. There WILL be another book. Which will have more additions. There probably is already.
As for miracles, those who are autistic, I hear, have tremendously unique abilities. There is one lady Shakuntala Devi I think (not autistic) who could do really complex calculations in her head. Miracle to REST of humanity. An Outlier - would shout the Statistician.
The Vedas are full of wisdom. Doesn't mean they are the book of God.
Yes those who are autistic savant do have exceptional capabilities. It is said that the various parts of the brain which are responsible fir that extraordinary ability (mathematic or artistic, etc) receives greater blood flow than other areas. But the disorder comes with severe limitations as well. Do Shakuntala Devi's complex calculations have implications or reform on a wide scale...(political, legal, etc?). An outlier she may be, but the answer is, No. Her ability is still a miracle and a marvel, but not on a large scale.
As for your previous paragraph....some of the "new" thoughts in the Quran not only contradict the teachings of the previous books but are major refutations (Allah does not have a son, Jesus did not die on the cross, etc etc). An illiterate person can certainly have wisdom, but those who are experts of the Arabic language...know that an illiterate man cannot produce such intricate and precise revelation. It is not just about wisdom.
Re: the existence of
Outliers are just that. Some have larger societal impact. Others don't.
Hos is Allah not having a son an intricate and precise revelaation? It is someone ooinion that is not verifiable. As for Jesus maybe he didn't die on the cross. And the Quran got that one right. But a miracle?
Re: the existence of
Outliers are just that. Some have larger societal impact. Others don't.
Hos is Allah not having a son an intricate and precise revelaation? It is someone ooinion that is not verifiable. As for Jesus maybe he didn't die on the cross. And the Quran got that one right. But a miracle?
Southie, when did I say that "Allah not having a son" is intricate or precise revelation? In fact I don't think this particular message is intricate at all, but it is a consistent one. The Prophet SAW's words were written just the way he spoke them. And when one is speaking to a group of people, it is easy to make mistakes. While speaking, one tends to be very lax in their language. Right now I am typing this post, so I can slow down and edit my words or use more sophisticated language or correct and delete so that my writing appears consistent in its structure and flow. But it is hard to maintain that consistency while speaking because spoken language tends to be more lax. There is a verse in Surah Baqarah which talks about being on the middle path...and strangely that verse falls in the middle of the Surah. Take the total number of verses and divide by two and that verse is in the middle. While you are speaking, you cannot arrange for this sequence in your mind. Both Moses and Jesus were sent to guide Bani Israil. Now in Surah Saff, when Moses addresses Bani Israel...the words li qawmi and ya qawmi are used. In the very next ayat, Jesus addresses Bani Israil but he does say ya qawmi, instead he says "Ya Bani Israil." Both prophets are addressing the same group of people, but address them differently. Why? In Arabic tradition qawmi means to the people my father belonged to. Qawmi is never used with Jesus because he didn't have a father; he had an immaculate conception. It's intrucate/precise language such as this which is hard to maintain while speaking.
Re: the existence of
^ Got the part about about precise language. Karunanidhi the ex CM of Tamil Nadu has a way with words. He can speak a long sentence paragraph et. Begin and end with same words and other verbal gymnastics.
Re your first sentence this para from ur prev post led me to the conclusion
" As for your previous paragraph....some of the "new" thoughts in the Quran not only contradict the teachings of the previous books but are major refutations (Allah does not have a son, Jesus did not die on the cross, etc etc). An illiterate person can certainly have wisdom, but those who are experts of the Arabic language...know that an illiterate man cannot produce such intricate and precise revelation. It is not just about wisdom."
Anyway u r an honest debater. And u say what u believe. And ALWAYS acknowledge when the other side has a point. Maybe that honesty comes from ur faith. And that's good.
On another note, nice of u to inckude the guy who normally speaks with himself. As Mr. Monk would sa Thank you "Redness"
Re: the existence of
The basic purpose of human being sent to this world is TEST. Human being are tested as they have free will to act right and wrong. The 'act wrong' part from free acts made people modify earlier religions. If you get this bit, you would find it logical that why so many religions were sent to this world.
However, as Islam is the final religion so Quran will remain free from modifications till the day of the judgment.
Re: the existence of
The basic purpose of human being sent to this world is TEST. Human being are tested as they have free will to act right and wrong. The 'act wrong' part from free acts made people modify earlier religions. If you get this bit, you would find it logical that why so many religions were sent to this world.
However, as Islam is the final religion so Quran will remain free from modifications till the day of the judgment.
Why are we being tested and who is testing us?
Re: the existence of
Why are we being tested and who is testing us?
Why do you exist?
How can you exist without purpose?
Re: the existence of
^This is exactly why I refuse to argue with you. Your comeback is always a question. First, answer my question. There is no point in debating with someone whose style of debating is evading a question with another question. :roll eyes:
Re: the existence of
^This is exactly why I refuse to argue with you. Your comeback is always a question. First, answer my question. There is no point in debating with someone whose style of debating is evading a question with another question. :roll eyes:
lolz. you didnt realize that my post was to answer to those who think there should be only one religion. I wonder why you even asked me that question.
anyhow, let me answer your question.
We are given power of free will. we will be asked about how we exercised this power.
Re: the existence of
The basic purpose of human being sent to this world is TEST. Human being are tested as they have free will to act right and wrong. The 'act wrong' part from free acts made people modify earlier religions. If you get this bit, you would find it logical that why so many religions were sent to this world.
However, as Islam is the final religion so Quran will remain free from modifications till the day of the judgment.
not so fast. Hindus believe Narayana has the final say. Any book that doesn't change with the times cannot be sustainable in the free markets of independent thinking.
Re: the existence of
not so fast. Hindus believe Narayana has the final say. Any book that doesn't change with the times cannot be sustainable in the free markets of independent thinking.
Practicing truly moral part of your religion and sincere effort to find the moral truth will help you decide which religion is truly final.
Practice and sincerity is the key.
Nobel Quran is book of moral codes and signs from Allah.
Re: the existence of
southie, may i know why you liked post #48 :D
Re: the existence of
^This is exactly why I refuse to argue with you. Your comeback is always a question. First, answer my question. There is no point in debating with someone whose style of debating is evading a question with another question. :roll eyes:
Okay I will attempt to answer your question without a comeback question.
Why are we being tested and who is testing us?
I think it's within human nature to test and want to be tested...or to have a criterion. We test/judge/evaluate people to see if they should be a part of our lives or should no longer be a part of our lives....there's a criterion involved....and we even use it for inanimate things thing like a house, car, an experiment, safety measures, a procedure, etc etc. In our jobs, we are tested and we have a criterion for which we work according to and toward...it gives our job a purpose and direction and makes our efforts more meaningful. A test or a criterion fosters a sense of accountability and responsibility. For example, in the workplace, your employer's criterion makes you more accountable for your duties as well as your actions toward your coworkers. A test or criterion not only fosters a sense of accountability toward others' rights, it provides direction in how to do things. If you want to remove the concept of a divine test/criterion/assessment, that's fine.........but you will find that we tend to seek purpose/standard/criterion/assessment in various areas of our lives. As human beings we test and are tested...maybe even want to be tested....it's innate.
If you think about what a test is....you'll see that a test (be it educational or professional or personal) comes with or provides a purpose or objective. And it is within human nature to seek purpose to things. A test also serves as an assessment and criterion. A test also fosters accountability and responsibility. The funny/ironic thing is that even if one is against the idea of life having a divine purpose.....we humans tend to seek a purpose. Even if we are against being tested by a divine being, we ourselves tend to test people and things and desire being tested. Even if the thought of a divine being holding us accountable for our actions makes us angry......still we want to hold fellow humans accountable for their injustices (through the law or otherwise). It is within our nature.
Re: the existence of
Okay I will attempt to answer your question without a comeback question.
I think it's within human nature to test and want to be tested...or to have a criterion. We test/judge/evaluate people to see if they should be a part of our lives or should no longer be a part of our lives....there's a criterion involved....and we even use it for inanimate things thing like a house, car, an experiment, safety measures, a procedure, etc etc. In our jobs, we are tested and we have a criterion for which we work according to and toward...it gives our job a purpose and direction and makes our efforts more meaningful. A test or a criterion fosters a sense of accountability and responsibility. For example, in the workplace, your employer's criterion makes you more accountable for your duties as well as your actions toward your coworkers. A test or criterion not only fosters a sense of accountability toward others' rights, it provides direction in how to do things. If you want to remove the concept of a divine test/criterion/assessment, that's fine.........but you will find that we tend to seek purpose/standard/criterion/assessment in various areas of our lives. As human beings we test and are tested...maybe even want to be tested....it's innate.
If you think about what a test is....you'll see that a test (be it educational or professional or personal) comes with or provides a purpose or objective. And it is within human nature to seek purpose to things. A test also serves as an assessment and criterion. A test also fosters accountability and responsibility. The funny/ironic thing is that even if one is against the idea of life having a divine purpose.....we humans tend to seek a purpose. Even if we are against being tested by a divine being, we ourselves tend to test people and things and desire being tested. Even if the thought of a divine being holding us accountable for our actions makes us angry......still we want to hold fellow humans accountable for their injustices (through the law or otherwise). It is within our nature.
I don't know, RV. This whole testing sounds too immature and small for God. The idea itself is too human! It's almost like we like to measure everything include the divine in humanistic terms. It just makes no sense. How do you know this? How do you know that? O that's right! You were told by another person and that person learned it from someone else. They read it in a book. A book that's from God but written by men.
Everything you are telling, I have heard before. :) I had similar upbringing as most desi women raised abroad. I know where you are going with this. I could switch sides you and argue with an atheist saying everything you are saying to me. It is not that I don't understand what you are saying. It just doesn't make sense to me.
**Ajazali- **you see RV's response? This is how you counter argue.
Re: the existence of
Why do you exist?
How can you exist without purpose?
I don't know why I exist. I don't know why anything exists. We are part of this universe. There could be countless other universes. Is it pure chance that we exist or is there really a purpose? In my opinion, our belief system defines our purpose. A purpose means something to human beings. It's our humanly concept to give our lives a meaning. It's not a universal one! Other conscious beings may or may not ask this question. We don't know!
Re: the existence of
Had we been closer to the sun or a tad further away, we wouldn't survive. The conditions on our planet support our survival. So, these things indicate a purpose to me. Animals have a purpose too. The trees, the sun, moon, stars, clouds, the air....even these inanimate things were designed with a purpose....hence it doesn't matter to me what other undiscovered life forms exist out there, Scully, nor do I care if they ask of themselves the same question. They will be accountable for their own actions and I for mine.
Re: the existence of
Oh, and I said Scully in jest. The X-files music started playing in my head after I read your last post.
Re: the existence of
Had we been closer to the sun or a tad further away, we wouldn't survive. The conditions on our planet support our survival. So, these things indicate a purpose to me. Animals have a purpose too. The trees, the sun, moon, stars, clouds, the air....even these inanimate things were designed with a purpose....hence it doesn't matter to me what other undiscovered life forms exist out there, Scully, nor do I care if they ask of themselves the same question. They will be accountable for their own actions and I for mine.
Yeah, but ours is not the only planet with life in the universe. With our calculations, there could be billion more that support life. As far as other organisms having a purpose, we need each other to survive on this planet. Our survival is the purpose. This does not define a greater purpose. Even if there is, we don't know that yet. That is defined by your faith.
Re: the existence of
Now I'll go Ajaz Ali on you. What is faith defined by? What is yaqeen or belief defined by? As the saying goes, seeing is believing. Seeing entails looking around you and pondering upon the intricate balance of the various systems in our world that we humans, despite our advances in knowledge and technology, do not control. A higher power who not only created these systems but controls and maintains them for purposes such as our survival as well as functional and aesthetic purposes must not have created us in vain or without purpose. It reflects too much care.
Who cares if "with our calculations" there are a billion more planets that support life. I don't care. Forget looking that far beyond when there are jinns, invisible beings, that exist alongside us on our planet. I don't even care what they believe in or what questions they ask themselves. For even these invisible beings with intellect, Allah sent them the same criterion...and among them are those that believe and those that don't...and in my mind...that's how it goes for other life forms out there that remain undiscovered and thus invisible to us.
Re: the existence of
^ you can selectively ignore evidence. I won't. Faith is faith. Sometimes it is indescribable. Faith requires no evidence but you can selectively choose evidence to suit your claims. You can't argue about your fair with someone who doesn't share your belief system.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have made no such claims, you did. I am not saying there is no greater purpose. I am saying we don't know. For you, it is so evident, Right? I don't share your belief system.