I've noticed something. Right now you're saying faith requires no evidence. Lekin jo imaan waalay hain....if and when they express their conviction in their religion and how they believe that it is the absolute truth.....tab tum jaisay laug (agnostics and atheists) evidence maangtay ho....and when we explain with evidence....you folks doubt that evidence. And even your "doubting" or "critiquing" of our explanations....implies that you examine and analyze our explanations which contain what we see as evidence....which means that you folks base your faith on evidence as well. Whatever profound experience that you are awaiting from Allah will be your "evidence," Theorist. I have iman in the unseen, in the stories in the Quran that defy nature....and I have no evidence for these things. So why do I have a blind faith in them? It's because when I look around me I believe that if God can create this world, then anything is possible for Him...even things which to our human mind are impossible. So my blind faith in things that I have no evidence for stems from things which I do see evidence for. Sure, my belief system is not shared by you and that's fine...keep up with it. But as for you saying that faith requires no evidence......pfft rehnay do yaar.
Practicing truly moral part of your religion and sincere effort to find the moral truth will help you decide which religion is truly final.
Practice and sincerity is the key.
Nobel Quran is book of moral codes and signs from Allah.
Why do we need teachers and professors to enlighten us. Why is it not that by the time we gain self-awareness and grow up, instead of being schooled , are told to go and search for knowledge on our own. There is no need for Universities, establishing separate faculties, no faculty heads, deans whatsoever. Every individual should contemplate and come up with his own theories and ideas. Why human intervention when one is trying to seek knowledge. Why treat divine and science and worldly knowledge separately. If knowledge of divine is more complex than worldly knowledge, then when we need a guide for the latter one, would we not need one for the former.
Yeah, but ours is not the only planet with life in the universe. With our calculations, there could be billion more that support life.
you can selectively ignore evidence. I won't. Faith is faith. Sometimes it is indescribable. Faith requires no evidence but you can selectively choose evidence to suit your claims. You can't argue about your fair with someone who doesn't share your belief system.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have made no such claims,.
Have you ever visited those planets. Have you actually with your own eyes seen and physically experienced the life-friendly conditions found on those planets. Do calculations suffice for the need of an actual evidence; a visit and a trip to the planet. Focusing on highlighted text is it not a hunormous claim you are making. Or is that what we call faith. Lets say blind faith in calculations and technology.
I don't know, RV. This whole testing sounds too immature and small for God. The idea itself is too human! It's almost like we like to measure everything include the divine in humanistic terms. It just makes no sense. How do you know this? How do you know that? O that's right! You were told by another person and that person learned it from someone else. They read it in a book. A book that's from God but written by men.
Everything you are telling, I have heard before. :) I had similar upbringing as most desi women raised abroad. I know where you are going with this. I could switch sides you and argue with an atheist saying everything you are saying to me. It is not that I don't understand what you are saying. It just doesn't make sense to me.
**Ajazali- **you see RV's response? This is how you counter argue.
See, with even this response you could not agree with RV?
So what is your point here?
You just want it circular.
You want to leave it vague and ambiguous and live in fool's paradise.
I know people understand what they want to understand, so in most cases, I try resort to reply with few concrete sentences, especially when I have less free time.
I don't know why I exist. I don't know why anything exists. We are part of this universe. There could be countless other universes. Is it pure chance that we exist or is there really a purpose? In my opinion, our belief system defines our purpose. A purpose means something to human beings. It's our humanly concept to give our lives a meaning. It's not a universal one! Other conscious beings may or may not ask this question. We don't know!
Ok, there are two basic theories that people believe in.
Believers believe that this world has one common purpose and disbelievers believe this world came into existence randomly.
This world came into existence randomly can easily be refuted because this world is no more being affected by the randomness that disbelievers believe was the cause of creation of this world. If randomness was true, this world would must have been affected by that randomness. Instead, every object in the universe is in proper order.
If you could digest this bit, then I will explain you further how childish it is to believe this world came into existence randomly. I assume you understand graph theories.
Yeah, but ours is not the only planet with life in the universe. With our calculations, there could be billion more that support life. As far as other organisms having a purpose, we need each other to survive on this planet. Our survival is the purpose. This does not define a greater purpose. Even if there is, we don't know that yet. That is defined by your faith.
The theory that there is no common purpose and everyone has his/her own purpose leads to believe in evil like selfishness. If there is no common purpose then I am supposed not to stay away from evil. I can kill weaker than me and become more powerful.
Now, would you say that distinguishing between evil and good is hardwired into us?
See, with even this response you could not agree with RV?
So what is your point here?
You just want it circular.
You want to leave it vague and ambiguous and live in fool's paradise.
I know people understand what they want to understand, so in most cases, I try resort to reply with few concrete sentences, especially when I have less free time.
It's not about agreeing with someone. An argument will be circular if there is no hard evidence. Theology and Philosophy will always have circular arguments. As a matter of fact, it is you and RV who want to be vague and circular. I am simply saying we don't know!
The theory that there is no common purpose and everyone has his/her own purpose leads to believe in evil like selfishness. If there is no common purpose then I am supposed not to stay away from evil. I can kill weaker than me and become more powerful.
Now, would you say that distinguishing between evil and good is hardwired into us?
You know you are really good at putting words in other people's mouth. It's your belief that such theories lead to evil behavior. Not everyone thinks like you. Get over it!
I said we do have a common purpose! Every species on earth is dependent on another species for survival. The entire point of evolution is to become stronger and better at survival!
Don't you kill animals for food? O yes, that's not evil at all, right? I think that's pretty evil.. Again, you are trying to direct this thread to what you want to talk about: Morality. I am not falling for it.
You know you are really good at putting words in other people's mouth. It's your belief that such theories lead to evil behavior. Not everyone thinks like you. Get over it!
....
Bye
its not my belief. if you keep on advocating survival of the fittest it will lead to meanness. its simple. what i see is you dont have the guts to listen others. why you even quoted me first?
i am not dragging the thread. lets agree for the sake of argument that we both dont know what the common purpose is. but, the pupose survival of the fittest as you are advocating is not compatible with morality. where as the purpose i believe in is compatible with morality. so the belief is reasoned.
The theory that there is no common purpose and everyone has his/her own purpose leads to believe in evil like selfishness.
If there is no common purpose then I am supposed not to stay away from evil. I can kill weaker than me and become more powerful.
Now, would you say that distinguishing between evil and good is hardwired into us?
Atheists dont go around killing people, and religious people aren't all saints either. many crimes against humanity have been committed by people who believe in God.
i think the reason why people believe in religion and God isn't that it stops them from being evil, but it prevents us from fearing death as much because it makes us believe we will come back to life again at some point. no one wants to be dead forever. scary thought. we need answers for what happens after we die, i think that is the reason for religion.
when we ask whats our purpose, why do we need a purpose? what is the purpose of an anmial? to live? so why can't ours be that aswell? only because we are smarter than them, we need to have a purpose?
when an animal dies, what happens to its soul? why cant the same happen to ours.?
^things without purpose are absurd.
So.....
your post is absurd.
liking your post is an absurd thing :D
this debate is absurd.
will try to come back to you with details.
^ i just posted what i thought.. thats the reason why I think people believe in religion. i m not saying i am right, just stated my views on religion. i am sure you have good reasons to believe in whatever you do.