the existence of

Science & Technology Science & Nature
21

Re: the existence of

Then for a man, who was both an orphan and an illiterate… he must have had one helluva a death wish to one day stand up to the two structured and dominant religions of that time, Christianity and Judaism. It’s odd. Some people accuse the Prophet SAWS of plagiarism. Well, the Quran already states that it confirms what the Jews and Christians have with them…so he can’t be called a plagiarizer. Some of the Prophet’s closest companions were very, very knowledgeable about the previous scripture…and they had been told in their scripture of the coming of a final messenger and his signs. They confirmed the signs using their scripture. Now if the message that Rasool SAWS preached was exactly the same as that which the Christians and Jews had with them…and not any better…as in it contained no better or superior teachings/principles…then there was no need for many of the people to follow him…including the Christians and Jews.

Was Prophet Muhammad influenced by Jews or Christians -II - Islam web - English

22

Re: the existence of

Yet here we are. It all comes down to faith. Believe what you will. People who did not convert probably did see it being redundant.

23

Re: the existence of

Hmm...Theorist....tum ne araam se video dekhay? Tum ne araam se link ka article parha? Lagta to nahi hai. Bas jhat se ...fata fat se...theory post kar di. Anyhow to each his own.

24

Re: the existence of

Nope and nope. I just don’t see the point. The ones who believe will believe regardless. For me written articles and scholars don’t do anything. I or the next person could always have a rebuttal for anything you or others put forward. Mujhe bas ab Allah hi samjhayega. :khatti:

25

Re: the existence of

When you say that that there will always be a rebuttal, you’re basically implying that “rebuttals” invalidate religion in general or cast a looming shadow of doubt over it.

It’s true that Allah hidayat denay wala hai. However, Allah gives hidayat through various mediums such as an article, lecture, or some personal experience such as a dream/near-death-experience/tragedy or calamity/or a more positive event.

Now when you say that “Mujhay bas Allah hi samjhayega”…what method or medium of “samjhana” do you have in mind? Okay, let’s say that you see a dream that propels you toward a religion, be it Islam or Christianity or whatever. Or perhaps you have a near-death-experience…or any positive or negative experience…that leads you toward a religion. After having this experience, there will always be rebuttals to your new-found faith from various corners. Heck, there will even be rebuttals that invalidate your experience. Doctors and scientists could say that some mechanism in the brain produced the vision of the tunnel or white light that you saw while having a near-death-experience. A psychologist could say that the reason why you associated the white light with “Allah” and not by any other name is because the religion you were born into was Islam. Still other folks can offer a “rebuttal” by saying that they saw a goddess with numerous arms in their near-death-experience. What I am trying to say is that AFTER you have that “samjhana” experience from Allah that you are awaiting…you will always find rebuttals. People with the staunchest belief in their faith also encounter rebuttals. The prophets that Allah sent encountered rebuttals in various degrees ranging from arguments to being pelted by stones to being killed. So, even the more superior examples of human beings (prophets) faced rebuttals.

Now, Theorist, IF you have set the condition that “rebuttals” invalidate religion or cast doubt over it, then by this rule you will never believe in any faith. Keep in mind that there will also be “rebuttals” for that profound “samjhaana-experience” you’re awaiting from Allah…so will they invalidate your experience? Phir to banda kahin ka bhi na raha. If Allah were to send you a farishta, even that will be refuted and rebutted. So, are you waiting for Allah or God to reveal himself to you? Even the prophets did not experience that.

And how do you know that my response to you is not a “samjhana” medium from Allah? How do you know that an explanation from a video or a scholar of a family member or a friend or whomever or whatever was not among the many “samjhanas” from Allah that you have received throughout your life? Would you then argue that, “RV, I don’t consider them samjhana-mediums from Allah because they did not leave me feeling convinced.” It is similar to how the Quran says that Allah sent messengers to communities to “samjhaao” the people…but the people did not believe that is was Allah “samjhaao-ing” them. Some of them scoffed at the idea that a mere mortal like them would be given the message; they had their own ideas of what “samjhaana” from Allah should look like.

You say scholars don’t do anything for you, even though they have devoted their lives to studying the language of the Quran…and even took out the time to compare it to verses from the Bible and Torah…which is more effort than both you and I have ever put in studying Islam. But you have invalidated the scholars’ efforts or rather you have dismissed them merely due to existence of rebuttals…conveniently forgetting that “rebuttals” will also attempt to invalidate any other mediums of guidance (dream/near-death/tragedy,etc) that you are hoping Allah “samjhaaos” you with in the future. Why doesn’t just one say k “main samajhna hi nahi chahti” followed by that ridiculous pardah-posh smilie that lends your above response an almost (and correct me if I’m wrong) a feeling of bemusement/jest.

26

Re: the existence of

if superior teachings have been sent down to us and religion has evolved over time and been "updated" then why does it need no update since the last 1400 years?

and ifthere's one true religion i don't understand why the message had to be sent down multiple times and not to forget how many other faiths besides the abrahmic religions have always existed simultaneously.

27

Re: the existence of

Redvelvet- ^when it happens, I know it. God has a way of showing whatever it is it wants me to know. I have experienced so much spiritually that I know God won't leave me out. My idea of God is not a religious one so whatever you tell me or anyone, I will know they are telling someone else's experience. You follow a deen that is represented by a human. I want and need God to show me. I am open to receiving information but when it comes from people who are following another person's experience then I must reject it. I have to find my own spirituality, my religion.

It may be a slow process and I am not looking for validation. This is also why I have stopped questioning other people about what they believe in and why. Faith is so personal and must be respected. However, it must not be imposed on anyone. It kind of stops the growth that would eventually happen on its own.

The reason I pray for my dad islamically is because that is what he believed in. I do this out of respect for him. when I am asking God to help him through his struggles then I am praying to and through what I believe in. Makes sense?

28

Re: the existence of

I follow a deen represented by a human? Yes, but where did that human (Rasool SAWS) get his inspiration from? God. Allah. It us said that he would meditate in the cave and ponder upon life and spiritual questions and his journey and revelations were inspired by Allah. My deen is not represented by this one person SAWS alone. It's represented by all the prophets from Adam (AS) all the way to the final messenger SAWS....all who had the same message, one that makes sense to me; that's my belief. I am not trying to impose on you. In my response, I even mentioned the possibility of your experiences (meditation or otherwise) leading you to various religions not just Islam.....but it was your rebuttal point that I analyzed and questioned because you cannot escape rebuttals no matter how confident you are in both your experience and faith. I hope you find your answers.

29

Re: the existence of

^ To add to that, the thread re : lady. thst was gay. The amouunt of scorn heaped on her by the so called religious was not a proud moment for religion. The same standard explanation - she is going against the book. Everything in the book is spot on. So she is wrong.

Why should anyone view such folks with any credibility. And if a book, any book, teaches such orientation is wrong, that teaching ought to be rejected by those with a modicum of common sense and fairness.

30

Re: the existence of

Then tell me why didn't prophets ever share and teach how they found God? Why is it that you must follow what they saw fit for you. Why not go out to a cave and meditate to find God yourself? I am actually following their method, ain't I? By meditating.. Why should I go through the middle man (messengers and prophets) when I can search for God myself?

31

Re: the existence of

Perhaps one of the reasons could also be the fake image used to represent jesus, that is of cesar borgias. If unpleasant historical characters will be used to represent a holy figure, it might make them look somewhat mythical. But then again even if there do exist such opinions, they seemingly are in minority. And these kind of studies do not only involve historians, but also anthropologists ,archaeologists etc. So perhaps due to that you will get to hear varying opinions.

Yes and here comes the second part of kalma. If what prophet has taught(ahadees) do not make up part of iman then why does one think reciting second part of kalma is so crucial and vital to iman.

What you call redundancy, is the consistency in the message. That is it is coming from and all the knowledge given to humankind is emanating from one and only one single source, Allah. The past scriptures contained prophecies about the arrival of final prophet and it was a requirement of faith that if during your lifetime the final prophet arrives, you will have to testify to the truth of his prophet hood and follow his teachings. And while following one scripture if one has to make choices based on the excuse of redundancy then one does not need to follow any scripture in the first place because when you follow scripture you have to follow scripture rules too.

And the redundant stories you are talking about were not even known by majority of the people following Christianity and judaism, at that time (prophet Mohammad's life) because much of the actual scripture content was hidden and doctored by their own priests and Rabbis. And they were extremely biased people who would share that with Prophet, a person they hated so much for being a chosen one. The real knowledge was also limited to very few people. And even in this day, when you see 66 books of bible, every new edition published still carries more changes.

And no prophets didn't find God, they always knew that God existed. The knowledge of existence of God is innate and implanted in human mind. And then does Quran not talk about revelation coming through Angel Jabriel, and about several other prophets. Even if you read a translation of Quran you will find that out, if you really want to. Nothing about prophets' beliefs and how they found God has been kept from us. It is so transparent.

If you do not want to find God through a middleman, fine don't, go and mediate, look for Him yourself, if you will truly find God, you will seek His word through Quran.

Theorist dude, jissay Khuda ki justuju ho woh ussay apnay wajood may bhi mil jata hai.

32

Re: the existence of

i don't understand why a final prophet was always alluded to in previous scriptures. if the message was always the same, then why the final prophet.. or multiple prophets at all

honestly it would make so much more sense if one prophet and obe religion existed throughout history and their wassome consistency. gives a little more credence to religion.

33

Re: the existence of

Did you have one science teacher all your life?

34

Re: the existence of

LOL

science is not perfect. you learn it gradually and the basic premise is that it is continuing to change.

i did not have a final science teacher who capped all scientific knowledge and perfected science forever to be passed onto future generations in the same form.

35

Re: the existence of

You of course being a Muslim would tell me Islam is the truth. Had it been a Christian, they would know Christianity to be the truth. there are a thousand others who will try and convince others that their religion is the truth. This is the problem, you see.

I don't want to get deep into this argument for obvious reasons. I respect what you believe but you cannot simply tell me that your version is the best for me to follow. That is for me to decide. If I told you The Mahdi muslims are waiting for came and went, would you just accept it? Just as there is a second coming of Jesus, there is Mahdi. As far as christians are concerned, there has never been a second coming of Jesus. Why should they have accepted Muhammad as God's last prophet when you don't accept Mirza Ghulam ahmed as the Mahdi? He has a hug fan following, no? Enough in numbers to make you question whether he is for real but you still won't believe, unless you were born into an Ahmedi family.

do you see where I am going with this. This whole organized religion thing is people following other people. I would rather go off on my own and let God show me. Wherever that takes me, I am game for it. If it is islam, I will eventually find it through my experience.

36

Re: the existence of

He can be illiterate AND still have wisdom. Those are not mutually exclusive. The book appears to have similar message as earlier books. Nothing out of ordinary. It has some new thoughts. Par for the course. There WILL be another book. Which will have more additions. There probably is already.

As for miracles, those who are autistic, I hear, have tremendously unique abilities. There is one lady Shakuntala Devi I think (not autistic) who could do really complex calculations in her head. Miracle to REST of humanity. An Outlier - would shout the Statistician.

The Vedas are full of wisdom. Doesn’t mean they are the book of God.

37

Re: the existence of

And to reinforce the Theory, at one time I mentioned the Gita and Quran to me were equally significant. My objective was to state I respect all beliefs. But a gentleman jumped all over the post. Cause just stating equivalence of anotter religious text with Quran was offensives to that person.

Science not open to interpretation.
Religion is.

As Mark Twain would say

And never the two shall mix.

QED.

38

Re: the existence of

Dekho I didn't even tell you in this thread that you should come to Islam...though yes, I used the prophets in my examples. I simply asked you how you would deal with rebuttals after having an experience which leads you to whatever religion. Lol, dude I have not deterred you from meditating in your room, or up in some cave or tree. It was you who you brought up the rebuttal point and I asked you how you'd respond to rebuttals refuting or invalidating your "experience" of divine guidance be it through meditation or some other means. Meditation doesn't necessitate going to a cave much less straying far from your own home. The Quran urges reflection through
looking at the world around you and one need not go to a cave to do that. If you are confident in your method of meditation and seeking god, then you do not need validation from me for it. I am not here to give you a shabaashi or thumbs up on meditating in a cave or elsewhere.

The Prophets, about some of them, it is known how they came to finding God. With Rasool SAWS it was while meditating in a cave and you can read about his experience of meeting the angel, Jibreel (AS)...and the feeling of constriction or tightness he felt....you can even read about his SAWS accounts of what receiving revelation felt like for him in physical terms. Hazrat Ibrahim (AS) is said to have reflected on God by pondering over the various forms of creation. So, to answer your above question there are accounts of "how" some of the prophets found God. I believe that it is a mercy from Allah that he sent down a system for how to live life because human beings require it. Maybe Allah sent the same message to all his prophets as a convenience for mankind to have a code or set of rules to follow immediately ....so that not everybody has to wait and wait and wait and wait to have their own individual experience of God....to alleviate that wait. Your question that "Why is it that you must follow what they saw fit for you" seems to imply that you think that people following a scripture....are nothing more than sheeples...that they do not ever question their faith....that they never searched for answers or contemplated...that they don't reflect...and are only blindly following; not necessarily so, Theorist. People following a scripture do have experiences that confirm their faith for them. This question of yours that I've quoted is interesting because ...despite the individual meditative experiences of the prophets.....despite the diversity in their worldly ranks and abilities....their message was the same...there was consistency. It's more than just what "they saw fit for you"...it requires intellect to ponder over the teachings they saw as "fit."

39

Re: the existence of

I am sure it does. People convert all the time and I am sure they go through a period of questioning. I don't doubt scholars for what they believe. All I am saying is their wisdom does not apply to all. You can learn from it but you cannot apply it to your life because it's their experience. If I hear an atheist converting to Islam, does this make me tingle a little? No, not really. It is their experience. They found wisdom and truth in it and that is it. For me the search continues.

I reject human intervention when it comes to The divine.

40

Re: the existence of

If one looks at evolution the probabilitiy of a specific species forming is very low. But probability theft there will be some living species per our climate is high. Probability some would do better than others high.

Probability that in a thread most people interact is very high. That someone talking to himself low. Probability that what's his name southie talking to himself through the roof.

Likewrise some are wise. Way wiser than most. So their teachings stand out. Some may have other worldly experience. Could be hallucination. Could be drug induced. So many explanations.

That a person of faith will choose the explantation that dots the is and crosses the ts is a foregone conckusion.