debater- according to u... if allah did not create khilafat for Ali (A.S) then you should not even say that you accept him as fourth imam even....why try to sound diplomatic? just come out and say it .....
rope hadith.....4 people....+ prophet = 5 people....=panjtan paak that grab the rope and without belief in them rope will break??? <----- just another interpretation...whaddaya think?
Hadhrat Samrah bin Jundub radhiyAllahu 'anhu states that a man said to Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam, ‘Ya Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam, I saw in my dream that a bucket was hanged from the sky, Abu Bakr held both the edges of bucket and drank some water from it, but there was a weakness in his drinking (weakness means small period of caliphate), then Umar held both the edges of bucket and drank some water from it, then Uthman came and he also drank to his fill, afterward Ali came and he held the wood of bucket, but the bucket with a jerk dropped from his hand and some drops of water from the bucket sprinkled on him'.
(Abu Daud, volume 2, page 289)
^^ debater- u base your position on a man who saw a dream and told it to the prophet? what kind of a debater are u?
the rest is just your own opinion....which u have every right too...toodles!
Re: The 4th Calif - Ali Karam Allah Wajho - Sunni Only
Debater - I would have not have opted to respond, because no matter how skewed it may be, it is your personal opinion. But as you are trying to Mis-represent the stand of a very large group of people i.e Ahle-Sunnah... It is my duty to clarify.
First of all you base your argument on a person's dream and interpretation which was not endorsed by Prophet (pbuh) at all, and a third person's comment. And then you have chosen a screan name 'debator' ? Amazing !!!
Here are the words of prophet (pbuh) himself :
**مَنْ كُنتُ مَولاهُ فعَلِيٌّ مَولاهُ**
One who has me as his master has ‘Alī as his master.
Do you consider this a weak hadees ? prove it !
If you consider it a sound hadees, explain it.
[quote]
This Fear, Fitnah and Civil war was removed by Allah through Saiyidina Ameer Mu’awiyah radhiyAllahu 'anhu and according to the above verse and Sahih hadiths, he was surely a Khalifah of Mu’mineen as blessed by Allah. Off course he ruled with justice and united the disintegrated Ummah.
[/quote]
Now, no matter how you much you love Ameer Muawiyah, it can not change the consensus among Muslims all over the world.
"There were 4 Rightly guided Caliphs after prophet (pbuh). Ameer Muawia is certainly not one of them". Infact he inflicted an unlawful war against a chosen Caliph. Due to his stubborn and arrogant attitude, thousands of noble companions of prophet died in that war. Being a senior governer, It was expected from Ameer Muawiya to assist Hazrat Ali in smooth succession power and controling Law and order situation. There were problems in Hazrat Ali time because his advisors were inept and hypocrite stabbed in his back. Anyway it is a long debate, I don't want to indulge in it.
Ameer Muawiya is not a rightly guided Caliph becuase :
He came into power by force not by popular choice.
His reign was more governed by his wishes and likes and less by commands of Allah and his messenger.
He appointed his (inpometent) son, his successor ; which in effect turned Khilafat into Malookeyat (monarchy)
Re: The 4th Calif - Ali Karam Allah Wajho - Sunni Only
[quote=Code_Red
Now, no matter how you much you love Ameer Muawiyah, it can not change the consensus among Muslims all over the world.
"There were 4 Rightly guided Caliphs after prophet (pbuh). Ameer Muawia is certainly not one of them". Infact he inflicted an unlawful war against a chosen Caliph. Due to his stubborn and arrogant attitude, thousands of noble companions of prophet died in that war. Being a senior governer, It was expected from Ameer Muawiya to assist Hazrat Ali in smooth succession power and controling Law and order situation. There were problems in Hazrat Ali time because his advisors were inept and hypocrite stabbed in his back. Anyway it is a long debate, I don't want to indulge in it.
Ameer Muawiya is not a rightly guided Caliph becuase :
He came into power by force not by popular choice.
His reign was more governed by his wishes and likes and less by commands of Allah and his messenger.
He appointed his (inpometent) son, his successor ; which in effect turned Khilafat into Malookeyat (monarchy)[/quote]
Mashallah finally somebody has the courage to state the truth.
Re: The 4th Calif - Ali Karam Allah Wajho - Sunni Only
Though I already explained this point but to rephrase it, I (we) accept 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu as our 4th Khalifah as he was surely the Khalifah till the disputes over the Murderers of Khalifah 'Uthman bin 'Affan radhiyAllahu 'anhu rose.
After Saiyidina 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu himself agreed to divide the Khilafat between himself and Saiyidina Mu'awiyah radhiyAllahu 'anhu, his khilafat automatically came to an end.
In that period Muslims were without any Khalifah..
The 5th Khalifah is surely Saiyidina Mu'awiyah radhiyallahu 'anhu as all Sahabah radhiyAllahu 'anhum and all Muslims with a consensus gave their bai'ah to him, even Saiyidina Hasan bin 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu gave his bai'ah to him..mashaAllah.
I know shias won't accept this but they can't prove me wrong, inshaAllah.
[quote]
rope hadith.....4 people....+ prophet = 5 people....=panjtan paak that grab the rope and without belief in them rope will break??? <----- just another interpretation...whaddaya think?
[/quote]
Well, in our religion (Islam), dreams are one of the qualities (signs) of Prophethood, this is the reason why Sahabah radhiyAllahu 'anhum appeared at the service of Rasoolullah s.a.w and told him their dreams which were interpreted by the Prophet s.a.w.
Now if you have any problem with this then I (we) don't care, that's your headache.
[quote]
debater- u base your position on a man who saw a dream and told it to the prophet? what kind of a debater are u?
the rest is just your own opinion....which u have every right too...toodles!
[/quote]
Before entering an Islamic Debate, learn something about Islam. For example learn what a hadith is called. A hadith is an action as well upon which Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam observed silence giving it a silent consent.
Re: The 4th Calif - Ali Karam Allah Wajho - Sunni Only
Probably you read only one narration from Abu Daud, possibly you are allergic to Sahih Bukhari, moreover I am not depending upon hadiths only, I have also presented the 55th verse of Nur which proves clearly that Allah didn't grant 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu with Khilafat.
Even your commentator Puya accepts that and says that your Mahdi qualifies this verse and not the former Imams.
NOw happy?
Here are the words of prophet (pbuh) himself :
[quote]
مَنْ كُنتُ مَولاهُ فعَلِيٌّ مَولاهُ One who has me as his master has ‘Alī as his master.
Do you consider this a weak hadees ? prove it !
[/quote]
Abu Sareehah or Zayd bin Arqam radhiyAllahu 'anhu states:
Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam said, ''Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu is the mawla of one whose mawla is I.'
Tirmidhi says, Shu'bah has doubt in this narration. This hadith is hasan ghareeb. Shu'bah has transmitted this narration from Zayd bin Arqam via Memoon Abu 'Abdullah.
By saying the above Tirmidhi is indicating that Shu'bah is doubtful about this narration. First doubt is if this narration is narrated by Abu Sareehah i.e Hudhayfah bin Usayd or Zayd bin Arqam radhiyAllahu 'anhu.
Second doubt is if Shu'bah heard this narration from Salamah bin Kaheel or Memoon bin 'Abdullah.
In this way there is a hesitation / dissatisfaction found in this narration. And the narration in which there is some hesitation is called hesitant which is extremely dha'if (weak) and unacceptable whether the sanad (chain of narration) is very good.
Ibn 'Adi and Dhahabi claim that this narration is not at all reported by Salamah bin Kaheel instead this is narrated by Memoon Abu 'Abdullah because this (narration) has been narrated by 'Auf as well other than Shu'bah and 'Auf has named Memoon. In this respect this narration is depending upon Memoon Abu 'Abdullah.
Criticism over Memoon Abu 'Abdullah
'Ali bin Madyani says, 'Yahya bin Sa'id doesn't take any narration from him.'
Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal says, 'His narrations are munkar.'
Yahya bin Mu'in says, 'He is la shai (nothing).'
Shu'bah himself claims that he was a cunning person.
(Meezan, volume 4, page 235)
Hadhrat Bara bin Al'Athib radhiyAllahu 'anhu states:
We participated in the hajj which Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam performed. He stayed on the way and commanded people to gather. When all people gathered, he sallAllahu alayhe wasallam held the hand of 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu saying I don't have more rights upon all Muslims than their own lives. Sahabah radhiyAllahu 'anhum asked, 'Why not', he sallAllahu alayhe wasallam said, 'Then this 'Ali also has the right, 'Ali is the mawla of one whose mawla is I, O Allah be friend of one who keeps 'Ali as a friend and keep malice with one who keeps malice with 'Ali.
(Ibn Majah, translated, page 75)
From Bara bin Al'Aztib this story is narrated by 'Adi bin Thabit.
'Adi bin Thabit
'Adi bin Thabit is the narrator of Sihah Sittah. Ahmad bin Hanbal, Ahmad Al'ajali and Nisai say he is thiqah (reliable).
Dhahabi and Ibn 'Adi say he was the mujtahid of shias, their story teller and Imam of their masjid. He was regarded truthful among them. And this is true that if all shias became like him, the evil of shias would lessen.
Mas'udi (who himself is an extremist pure Rafidhi shia of Tabarra) opines that he presents shias' thoughts in a way that no other shia does better than that..
Jozjani says, he is deviated from the right path.
Yahya bin Mu'in says he is a ghaali (extremist) shia.
Abu Hatim says, he is truthful.
(Meezan, volume 3, page 61)
Note: according to science of hadith, a narration would be rejected if it is narrated by from the people of bid'at (innovators) and supports their ideology. Since this narration has been narrated by Rafidha and it supports Rafidhism, it is not accepted.
Interestingly, there is one more fitnah in this narration, whose name is 'Ali bin Zayd bin Jud'aan.
'Ali bin Zayd bin Jud'aan
Hamad bin Zayd Kufi says he used to make changes to hadiths.
Falas says, Yahya bin Sa'id avoided his narrations.
Imam Sufyan bin 'Ayniyah says he is dha'if (weak).
Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal says he is dha'if, Yahya bin Mu'in says he is la shai (nothing). His one saying is that he is not strong (qawi).
Yazid bin Zaree' says he is the Rafidhi (shia).
Ahmad Al'ajali says, he is shia and not strong.
Imam Bukhari and Abu Hatim say this person is not hujjat (authoritative) but Abu Hatim says his narration should be written but I like Yazid bin Abi Ziyad more.
(Meezan, volume 3, page 137)
[quote]
2. If you consider it a sound hadees, explain it.
[/quote]
If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Maula, and Jibreel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels - will back (him) up. (66:4)
So according to this verse
1. Allah ta'aala
2. Jibreel 'alayhis slaam
3. Every righteous Mu'min and
4. All angels are the Maula of Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam..
Well I don't mind if shias' Imam 'Ali is my Maula, I love to be Maula (supporter) of my Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam..
[quote]
Now, no matter how you much you love Ameer Muawiyah, it can not change the consensus among Muslims all over the world.
"There were 4 Rightly guided Caliphs after prophet (pbuh). Ameer Muawia is certainly not one of them".
In this hadith the dominance of Islam and its standing firm has been predicted until the 12 caliphs
Saiyid Sulayman Nadvi (late) writes in his Seeratun Nabi:
'Prediction of his (sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam) 12 caliphs has been appeared in different books in different words. According to Sahih Muslim, 'this Islamic Rule will be good unless 12 caliphs rule it….Islam will be honoured and conserved until 12 caliphs….there will be 12 caliphs from Quraish then will be liars'. In Abu Daud, Kitab-al-Mahdi are these words, 'this deen will persist always until 12 caliphs are passed in it, caliphs on which the whole ummah will be united'.
From Ahlus Sunnah, Qadhi 'Ayadh interprets this hadith as 12 personalities out of all the caliphs are those who have served Islam, and who are pious.
Hafiz Ibn Hajar, based on the words from Abu Daud, count these 12 caliphs from 'Rightly Guided Caliphs' and 'Bani Umaiyah', who achieved consensus (unity) of Ummah,
that is to say,
Abu Bakr radhiyAllahu 'anhu,
'Umar radhiyAllahu 'anhu,
'Uthman radhiyAllahu 'anhu,
'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu,
Mu'awiyah radhiyAllahu 'anhu,
Yazid bin Mu'awiyah,
Abdul Malik,
Waleed,
Sulayman,
'Umar bin Abdul Aziz,
Yazid bin Abdul Malik,
Hashaam.
(Seeratun Nabi, volume 3, page 702)
Comments
From the opinion of Hafiz Ibn Hajar we learn that he kept into consideration the consensus of Ummah and this is why the names of Hadhrat 'Abdullah bin Zubayr radhiyAllahu 'anhu, Marwaan, Maviyah bin Yazid and Hadhrat Hasan radhiyAllahu 'anhu are not included.
But it is sorrowful that in the eyes of Ibn Hajar, these persons are not included to this list because of lack of Ijma' of ummah, though this Ijma' of Ummah didn't even exist upon Hadhrat Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu as well rather all the companions except a few didn't take his oath of allegiance.
How come his name be included to this list? The truth is the same as spoken by Hadhrat Shah Waliullah and Imam Ibn Taymiyah that Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu and Hadhrat Hasan radhiyAllahu 'anhu are not caliphs in the true sense (though we Ahlus Sunnah regard 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu as the 4th Khalifah because of certain reasons).
If the condition of Ijma' of Ummah is kept in view the arrangement of 12 caliphs will be:
Hadhrat Abu Bakr radhiyAllahu 'anhu
Hadhrat Umar radhiyAllahu 'anhu
Hadhrat Uthman radhiyAllahu 'anhu
Hadhrat Ameer Maviyah radhiyAllahu 'anhu
Yazid bin Maviyah
Abdul Malik bin Marwaan
Waleed bin Abdul Malik
Sulayman bin Abdul Malik
Umar bin Abdul Aziz
Yazid bin Abdul Malik
Hashaam bin Abdul Malik and
Waleed bin Yazid bin Abdul Malik
And so the period of 12 caliphs ended in 126 hijrah. And after this disturbance and misfortune prevailed in Ummah. Islam dominated until Banu Umaiyah ruled Muslims and Muslims remained united under their banner. But after the caliphate of Banu Umaiyah came to an end, Banu Abbas got hold of it and in a few years, Caliphate of Umwiyah established in Undulus (Spain) and thus Ummah got divided amongst two caliphates and this division kept on increasing with time and Muslims went on declining day by day.
Re: The 4th Calif - Ali Karam Allah Wajho - Sunni Only
?
[QUOTE]
2) From his male relatives the noble Prophet (saw) loved Hz. Ali bin Abi Talib (ra) the most.
[/QUOTE]
No reliable evidence.
[QUOTE]
3) Hz. Ali bin Abi Talib (ra) is the husband of the noble Lady Fatimah (ra) who will be from among the leaders of the ladies in Paradise.
[/QUOTE]
This narration is hesitant, first of all the narrator is a shia secondly the narrator is not sure if she is the leader of all women in jannah or all women of believers...moreover this narration has a clash with more Sahih Narration from Bukhari itself where there is no mention of such titles. Off course these are shia propaganda.
[QUOTE]
4) Hz. Ali bin Abi Talib (ra) is the father of the leaders of the youth in Paradise [Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein (May Allah (swt) be pleased with them both)].
[/QUOTE]
This narration is not sahih. If people are interested, I can present an analysis of this one and the one of leader of women in paradise both.
[QUOTE]
6) Hz. Ali bin Abi Talib (ra) is the fourth among the righteous Khaleefs on the Khalifaat al Nabuwwah.
[/QUOTE]
According to Sahih Hadiths, Khilafat of Nubuwwat ended at 'Uthman Ghani radhiyAllahu 'anhu, Shah Waliullah rahimahullah as well agree with this.
Hadhrat 'Ali's khilafat couldn't be established, as a matter of fact.
Re: The 4th Calif - Ali Karam Allah Wajho - Sunni Only
As Bao Bihari once said it's called Ghar kee Larai.
Debater just one question, you mentioned....
From Ahlus Sunnah, Qadhi 'Ayadh interprets this hadith as 12 personalities out of all the caliphs are those who have served Islam, and who are pious.
Hafiz Ibn Hajar, based on the words from Abu Daud, count these 12 caliphs from 'Rightly Guided Caliphs' and 'Bani Umaiyah', who achieved consensus (unity) of Ummah,
that is to say,
Abu Bakr radhiyAllahu 'anhu,
'Umar radhiyAllahu 'anhu,
'Uthman radhiyAllahu 'anhu,
'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu,
Mu'awiyah radhiyAllahu 'anhu,
Yazid bin Mu'awiyah,
Abdul Malik,
Waleed,
Sulayman,
'Umar bin Abdul Aziz,
Yazid bin Abdul Malik,
Hashaam.
No. 5 and 6 are ppl who served Islam, were pious and achieved unity in the ummah.
Is that the Ahle Sunnah view? All these 12 caliphs do you consider them to be rightly guided?
Re: The 4th Calif - Ali Karam Allah Wajho - Sunni Only
Is that the Ahle Sunnah view? All these 12 caliphs do you consider them to be rightly guided?
:-O
What else my post says?
Off course Qadhi 'Ayadh and Hafidh Ibn Hajar are great scholars of Ahlus Sunnah, especially Ibn Hajar is regarded an Imam of Hadith.
Well I have given only two names, in fact the same is the view of Ahlus Sunnah regarding Saiyidina Ameer Mu'awiyah radhiyAllahu 'anhu and Yazid bin Mu'awiyah.
In fact shias have spread lots of false propaganda regarding these personalities. They have corrupted the History of Islam through their lies, the way Americans are spreading their propaganda through electronic and print media against Islam.
Even these shias admit that those who invited Imam Husain to Kufah were his own shias (Shias of Ali). It was those shias of Kufah who betrayed their Infallible and it was 'Ubedullah ibn Ziyad (Companion of Imam 'Ali) who murdered Imam Husain over the conspiracy of Shimr (another Companion of Imam 'Ali).
Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu appointed Ibn Ziyad as governor of Kufah, if Yazid let him continue his position then it was a favour of Yazid to these Treacherous Shias of Ali from Kufah.
Moreover Shimr was the body guard of Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu as well as his brother in law (as Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu married Shimr's sister).
These shias are in fact the offsprings or spiritual children of Shias of Ali who always betrayed Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu and after him they always betrayed all the Imams.
The concept of Khulafa Arba'ah (Four Khulafa) was presented by Banu Bawaweh, who were extremist Rafidhis (Pure Shias). They used the term of *Chahaar Yar *(Chaar Yar) to propagate this concept in Persian (Irani) language.
Though if you go through Sahih Hadiths (mostly from Bukhari and Muslim), you will find out:
Real Khulafa are 3 only, and their khilafat is called Khilafat-e-Nubuwwat.
Majority of Sahabah radhiyAllahu 'anhum didn't support 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu.
Sahabah radhiyAllahu 'anhum called these mutual conflicts a fitnah (which appeared in the period of Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu).
Nabi Kareem sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam had already pointed out that soon a Fitnah would appear which would circumpass 'Arabia and Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam advised Sahabah to keep away from this fitnah. In the eyes of Sahabah and Taba'een, this was the same fitnah which appeared after the martyrdom of Saiyidina 'Uthman ibn 'Affan radhiyAllahu 'anhu.
This fitnah came to an end when Saiyidina Hasan bin 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu made peace with Saiyidina Mu'awiyah bin Abu Sufyan radhiyAllahu 'anhu.
From Ameer Mu'waiyah radhiyAllahu 'anhu, another era of Khilafat started and mashaAllah, all the Sahabah and all the Muslims gave their bai'ah to Ameer Mu'awiyah radhiyAllahu 'anhu.
Muslim Ummah remained united (with only one Khalifah) till Khilafat of Banu Umaiyah persisted. After Banu Umaiyah, Banu 'Abbas got hold of khilafat because of conspiracies of shias and Ummah got divided into Banu 'Abbas and Umvi khilafat in Undulus.
Re: The 4th Calif - Ali Karam Allah Wajho - Sunni Only
Debator- I am clueless. Which sect propagates these skewed and absured views..
If you have studied Islamic history with open eyes (which I doubt ) You should have known that the third Caliph Hazrat Usman (ra) absolutely faild to establish the writ of his khilafat and all the nasty fitnas were born and grew up into anacondas, during his reign. So according to your (skewed) logic he is also not the caliph chosen by Allah according to Ayah 55 of sura nur ??? Any explainantions ? other than lengthy absured copy paste ?
I could not understand what you tried to prove about that hadees !
here is the list of **51 naration recorded in sunni books and the proof of their sound health **
Re: The 4th Calif - Ali Karam Allah Wajho - Sunni Only
Assalamualikum,
Topic is good Mashallah.Well i knew about the hadis of GHDIR KHAM.By the way the translation is incorrect because MOLA in arabic has several meanings and taking only MASTER is not suitable.
For the event of Hazrat Umar ra the same implies.By the way one thing i want to tell is that among th sahaba everyone regarded eace other superioir then oneself so when comes the judgement u have to gog to Quran and Sahih Hadis which tells us that every ASHRAH MUBASSAHARH had there own importance but Hazrat Abu Bakr ra takes no 1 spot after all prophets.This is a tradition of our prophet saw
" The greatest man set footh on the earth after prophets as is Abu Bakr ra".
But this doesnot mean that ALi ra carries no importance.
U said for riwayats
“Ali ra is from me and i m from ALi ra”
“ALi ra is my brother in this world and hereafter”
Thats why Maulvis in Jumma Khutba says"Fakhzahum ALi ra"
SO Dont believe that we underestimate ALi ra but what SHiahs do is they call ABu Bakr ra Murtid.
FOr more visit www.allaahuakbar.net
Thanks.
