Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Where is TLK's wisdom when you need it?

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Actually no, I don't buy all the hadith in those collections. There is plenty of stuff that goes against women, and surprise surprise, it's all narrarated by Abu Hurraira. So I get that part.

If I can have an element of academic doubt regarding the Sunni scholars, why can't I have an element of doubt on Shia beliefs too?

Even if we argue about a purity of a blood line, that Fatima (R), Ali (R) couldn't have been closer to Muhammad (SAW), then Aisha (R) was family too. She did a lot of narrarations of what the Prophet (SAW) did and said, since she spent time with him. So we can't discount that.

That's what I'm saying, if the concept of "immamat" is true, then hadith's and education given by anyone other than Ali (R) at the time of Ali (R)'s existence is negated. If Ali (R) and any other Sahabah had a point of difference, then Ali (R) was automatically right.

If Hasan (R), Hussain (R) had any differences with the other Sahabas kids, then they were automatically correct, and everyone else was wrong. Leaving aside the corruption from any political leader at the time.

For example, Aisha (R) wanted Ali (R) to deliver justice to the rebels who murdered Uthman (R), and it was this that the two fought over. It ended up in a war. Called the Battle of the Camel. Was Aisha (R)'s stance automatically wrong? Do murderers of Uthman (R), not get punished? They can just join Ali (R)'s camp and get away with it without investigations?

Hussain (R) was warned to not go to Karbala, and still went, and he was told, ok if you go, then don't take the women and children with you. He went anyway. If he had divine knowledge that others didn't have, then how did he die? How did Hasan (R) get poisoned if he had divine knowledge? Couldn't he forsee that his wife was going to hand him poison? If Ali (R) had divine knowledge, then how did he not escape his assasins?

So the question is over not just the purity over the blood line - maybe there is a "goodness" gene that runs in them. But does that make them "spiritual" leaders that are to be the SUCCESORS of the Prophet? Because now we're talking about religious power, and whoever has religious power, automatically has political power.

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

[note]Thread moved to appropriate forum [/note]

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Its rare that Abu Huraira RadiAllahu Anhu narrates a hadith which is not narrated through other routes, please do not try to blame a companion for your own lack of comprehension or inability to accept

I will just say there are errors on what has been said and peoples incorrect opinions need to be factored in when reading this thread.

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Both shia and sunni scholars have vested agendas so off course they both are biased.

Aisha's narrations are again in sunni books which are a mouthpiece for banu ummaya. Aisha who thwarted Hassans chance to be buried next to the prophet. Same Aisha who would call Fatima "Khadeeja ke aulaad". Same Aisha who went to war with Ali over wanting justice for Uthmaans death (even though only Uthmaan's heirs had this right according to sharia, which they didn't exercise, and even if they did, Ali as Caliph, had the right to refuse said right, an executive order of sorts). So who do we follow, Aisha or Umm Salma? Umm Salma sided with Ali and was pro Hussain. Abu Hurraira himself narrates to ther shahaba that he himself knows something abut Hussain that most can't grasp and then both Hussain and Abu Hurraira lock eyes and smile. There's alot out there, you just need to read! Hussain tried to bring islam back on haq, yes he should have not gone to kufa, but his death hada greater impact - rebellion in Mecca and Medina against Yazeed, revenge by Mukthaar (have you seen the sunni allegations against him, lol), denial of Muawiya and Yazeed's philosophies by Yazeed's son Mauawiya V2, after which, the caliphate gets past do banu umaya's (Uthmans cousin no less lol) Marwan, who would challenge the prophet on quranic grammar when ayats were revealed (one of only three who i believe prophet wouldn't forgive and asked to be put to the sword when he liberated Mecca after intercesion by Uthman, he was pardoned). By your notion of devine knowledge, why did the prophet agree to union with the Jews of Medina if he knew they would later double cross him at the battle of Uhud and sell arms to the Meccans?

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Again, re-routed via pro banu umaya sahaba. Born and raised Hanafi here so i'm not born shia and I don't class my self as Shia, I finally learnt to think and read for myself unlike most sheep who blindly follow fat maulvi's or the commentaries of Gangohi and Thanwi as well the wahabi fellow, now Ahmed Raza Khan, he's alright imo.

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Do you even know why Aisha hated Ali. The whole four witness for adultery concept? Ali telling the prophet to divorce Aisha because there are plenty of women!

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You are a shia, and this is taqiyyah

Imam Ahmad Raza Khan was the sternest of the names mentioned above against someone like yourself, even if your not shia and born and bred hanafi as you say. Imam Raza Khan has books educating ignorant sufis on Muawiya RadiAllahu Anhu

I do not have time, nor desire to talk to you

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Lol, are you for real. I am not shia, I was raised hanafi edited, here in London - but since I have grown up I've read alot of islamic literature, both sunni and shia as well sufi, heck I've even read christian, Jewish and Hindu literature also. Some things I follow sunni, some things I follow shia - I pray like a sunni, I fast on 9th and 10th for Hussain not Moosa (as) (shia don't fast on 9th or 10th - they consider it a hijacking by banu umayya by giving this event over to moosa's (AS) memory rather then for Hussain), I don't beat myself or force myself to cry, I don't label every little thing biddah nor do pour cold water on the bad need for Ijthihad especially for western muslims simply by saying foloow saudi petrol funded literature courtesy of Darrusalam bookshops. I class myself as muslim now, people like you don't get to label me. Will I ever get to a complete truth, I doubt it, alhu waalim is my response. edited I said I like Ahmed Raza Khan's commentaries, I didn't say I agreed with every single one edited LIke I don't agree with evey commentary of Ghazali or say every edict passed by Al Azhar. I follow what feels right and makes logical sense. You guys follow what ever a maulvi tells you. Likewise shia's blindly follow whatever their teachers tell them.

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Badabing , tone down a bit

Respect the personality respected by sunnis , sufis etc

Just tone down the language or thread will get locked or someone get banned

Ps interesting guppy you are and welcome to GS

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duplicate comment removed

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

[quote="batameez, post:13, topic:332311"]

Badabing , tone down a bit

Respect the personality respected by sunnis , sufis etc

Just tone down the language or thread will get locked or someone get banned

Lol, point taken, I just on't like being labelled by other edited on the end of a keyboard and I do respect all interpretation traditional recognized interpretations of islam, my beliefs are an amalgamation of sunni/shia/sufi but I don't label myself as either or, just muslim - will I ever determine a definite interpretation, I doubt, but I'll keep reading and do best regardless.

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I came across this, but I'm not sure how true it is that Ali (R) recommended a divorce. There was no evidence, there was just a rumor, that too, spread by a sahabah that had some relation or friendship to Abu Bakr I understand.

So, if there is an "immamat" to Ali (R), here he is making a clear mistake. There was a verse revealed regarding Aisha (R) backing up her innocence. Hence the lesson that we can't put blame on people without proof. Would anyone today recommend a divorce based on a whim of a rumor? But there were Sahabah who did it.

That's why I don't think any of the Sahabah were infallible, and yes, you're right, the Sunni scholarly work probably has it's own set of biases. It's dangerous, because you have to be able to question the Sahabah.

That's why I question whether it's a proper muslim belief in general, sunni or Shiah, to put this much weight on the spirituality of Ali (R) who was a COUSIN of Muhammad (SAW), not even a direct blood descendent. So even the argument of purity of blood doesn't totally work, he's a cousin, he shared a grandparent with Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

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I totally agree with where you're coming from, look i'm searching for answers to these questions all the time and then some such as did Zayd reach the station of "kum faykun" or what really happened between Abu bakr, Umar, Ali and Fatima after the prophet passed away, but what clinches it for me with Ali is his character. I can't explain it, it just makes sense to me - I used to be pro anyone but Ali and his progeny, but like I said, I started to read alot. I decided to take in as much of of the forgiveness aspects from sunni/shia/sufi not focusing the punishment concept, biased much! lol! Islam is a journey for us all, what makes sense to me, may be irrational to you and vice versa. The thing I hate about some muslims is that they regard even having an opinion on something that happened 1400 years ago as blasphemy. For me, the only thing that is kufr is Shirk, everything else is forgivable by Allah's will. As for the ayat about Aisha's innoncence, that is a sunni view, the shia view is that it was in relation to an allegation against mariyah the coptic. Regardling bloodline, the majority of sunni doctrinal beliefes are based upon those loyal to the ban ummaya caliphate, of which Ali and hassan were the exception to the rule being of banu hashim- Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Mauwiya, Yazeed, Mauawiya v2, Marwan and on and on.On that note, i'm off to get showered for work.

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

[note]Thread reopened and stick to the topic please.[/note]

[mod]Any derogatory remarks henceforth will not be tolerated[/mod]

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Thank-you!!!

I read this Website and their arguments make sense, although it’s just a website.

https://www.sjiieten-ontmaskerd.nl/AhlelBayt.com/ahlelbayt.com/index.html

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

^ They have an interesting account of the Battle of the Camel, which sheds some light on why Aisha (R) led people to Ali (R), with historical documentation from historians, but Allah knows best what happened. This story makes much more sense, because I always wondered why Aisha (R) that she decided to launch a war on other muslims.

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Her justification, misguided as it was, was that the duty of a ruler was to dispense justice, and one who would not dispense justice was not a ruler.

From her perspective, one of her relatives had been murdered in a regicide and his successor was refusing to investigate the matter, was refusing to seek justice.

Of course, Hazrat Ali (ra) was correctly following the path of lesser evil because he realised that trying to see justice done in this case would lead to civil war, which would be a greater evil than not dispensing justice.

Hazrat Ali (ra) came to power at a critical point when the Ummah was boiling on the verge of Civil War between those who supported Hazrat Usman (ra) and those who opposed Hazrat Usman (ra). Actively siding with one side, though it may have been just, would have tipped the scales and undone all of the nation building done since the life of the Prophet (ra).

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3) One point to bear in mind is that the information we have on the lives of the companions after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) is not subject to the same standard of intellectual rigor as the Hadith are - meaning they are more like any other historical record and subject to the biases of those who wrote them. In the case of Muawiya (ra), who founded the Umayyad dynasty, records written by both supporters of the Ahl-ul-Bait and supporters of the Abbasid dynasty would both seek to undermine him as both factions sought to prove Umayyad rule was illegitimate. Supporters of both factions ended up ruling most of the muslim world and be in positions to obscure records about him.

From a secular perspective, Muawiyah instituted the civil service reforms along the Byzantine Empire model than enabled the Muslim state to effectively administer such a massive state and not fall apart instantly into petty fiefdoms, and also founded the large Muslim navy that dominated the Mediterranean for over a century. From a secular perspective, he was an extremely effective administrator, which you would expect from someone who was essentially the Prophet's (pbuh) secretary.

As for the issue of being corrupt and getting his son into leadership - Muawiyah (ra) had seen the Ummah nearly fall into civil war over the issue of succession when Muslims did not know who should rule them next (though admittedly because he had raised an army to challenge the favoured candidate in Kufa, Imam Hassan). But I believe that this highlighted a serious issue - the Muslim state had for the first time become large enough that when its leader would die, all of its most prominent leaders would be too spread out to agree at once on who the leader should be. By then time Muawiyah had heard of Hazrat Ali's death, Imam Hassan was being proclaimed Khalif in Kufa before Muawiya and his supporters in Syria and North Africa could declare his own candidacy.

It strikes me that he tried to solve this by having his succession decided while he was still alive - by asking the powerful to pledge that his son would succeed him. In this he certainly made a bad choice - but then again many parents do deliberately overlook the flaws of their child, in the hope that growing up / getting married / getting a job / moving out / becoming the most powerful ruler on Earth would fix them.

4) Most Sunnis agree that Yazid was corrupt and a vile criminal, as were his cronies at Karbala who murdered members of the Ahl-ul-Bait.

5) Shias are those who believe that Ali (ra) and his family should have directly succeeded the Prophet. It has nothing to do with who should have succeeded Ali (ra).

6) Sunnis generally don't believe that Hasan and Hussain should have been caliphs over Muawiyya. Sunnis believe that rulership over Muslims should be by consensus, not hereditary right, and Sunnis believe that the general consensus amongst the Muslims was the Muawiya, being the most powerful man in the Muslim world (he governed Syria which was the wealthiest part of the Muslim world and had the most effective military) was in a better position to rule than Hasan and Hussain who had little government experience and little support from the military.

7) You still get Sunnis to this day who question various aspect of some of Abu Huraira's Hadith, using classical Hadith sciences regarding their chains of narration and fit with other hadiths/seerah/etc. Many of Abu Huraira's hadith are key parts of our beliefs, but they are not all accepted by all unconditionally.

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Violating command of Quran to stay within house, opposing the rightful caliph, the brother of the Messenger, by going at the head of army of rebels which besieged Basra, imprisoned its governor and officers (executed a number of them), and then waged a battle against the Imam's army (thus initiating first civil war in community), leading to the deaths of thousands (so many that a trench had to be dug to bury the bodies) is hardly what one would call a justifiable reaction...