Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

[vroom]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

@PyariCgudia

• I am not aware we are supposed to be ranking the caliphs in terms of how spiritual and close to God they were. The order you have listed here is the order in which they held a caliph position.

Yes, the order i stated is the order Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah holds them in.
There will be aspects of the list if disagreed with or schism sought it would leave the person disagreeing with Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah
The first two names have Ijmah approval of the sahaba, the ijmah cited here requires ALL Muslims to follow suit! This becomes Dhuriayat of Deen, where as disagreeing with ‘‘dhuriayat’’ of Ahlus Sunnah just means a person is an innovator, but still Muslim

If you do not know what these terms means, or their position refer to this explanation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0oXXD0k_iA
An introduction to Aqeedah

-If Ali is a “gate of knowledge” , then this means sunnis accept the concept of “sainthood”, “imams”?

Imam Ali Alaihis Salam is Wali Allah which is equivalent to sainthood?]
So when shias add this to their kalima, what they are saying That Ali RadiAllahu Anhu is Wali of Allah - that is a true statement, but its also a misplaced true statement

Awliya [sainthood?] is something that we believe in, yes

-Can’t an “imam” be just someone who leads a prayer? That’s all I thought they were, people who led prayers.

That is an imam too, they are Imams of that congregation. The Caliphs including Ali Alaihis Salam, and other companions are Imams of the Ummat - in its entirety

-Can’t one be a scholar and develop a closeness to God and not be from the Ahl-uh-Bayt? And if this is the case, then why do we automatically assume every progengy from Ali’s blood line is an Imam, and that the entire blood line is pure? Maybe Rasulullah prayed that Allah grant purity to his “family”, but does this include unborn future generations from Fatima and Ali (R’)'s lineage?

Any one can be scholar [although the word is over used these days], and anyone can gain closeness to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala. You do not have to be from Ahl al Bayt but A person who is insolent towards them can not gain closeness to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala!

The Bloodline of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is to be honoured and respected, I am not going to look at any possible negativity. Unborn future Children of Ali Alaihis Salam and Fatima Alaihis Salam are to be Imam of the entire Ummat. For example Imam Mahdi, we Must follow Him, when He takes up the Fight. Imam Abdul Qadir Jilani is Shaykh of Shaykhs. And you heard the Barakat of Loving Hassan and Hussain is Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala’s love for you!

This sentiment continues to future generations, Honouring and respecting the lineage of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is worship of Allah Ta’ala
Shaykh Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi is a descendent of the Ahul Bayt and a Sunni Shaykh. He may have some useful information regarding this. If memory serves me right He advices people to be cautious of the manner of disagreement with descendents of the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam

Next up

People who have traditionally fought the shia are not sunni but khawarij. You will learn a lot from listening to this [Sunni] speaker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0OhT8JdxGc

pakistani link:
Allah’s Friends, Their Shrines & Blessed Relics - Mufti Shaykh Monawwar Ateeq

[badabing]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

I don't want this to be a shia - sunni debate, especially in light of horrors being inflicted on shias in Pakistan.

(I know it will end up becoming a mud hurling event, eventually, so I ask mods shut it down when it starts inching that way).

I am talking to a guy who has a shia mom and sunni dad and somehow brings together the two traditions and it's impressive, I just want to see what the sunni perspective is on traditions in Muharram.

So here are my questions:

1. What does a Majlis consist of ? What's the purpose of this tradition? What is done during the day of Majlis? Which days is it done on and how many days?

2. My dad is telling me that Majlis can even be held by sunnnis, and when my dad was growing up in Pakistan, they held Shaam e ghareeban in sunni mosques as well.

3. Do Sunnis hold that Muawiyah was corrupt and trying to get his son into leadership? And that his treatment of Imam Hasan was wrong? Is there evidence he was involved in Ali (R)'s murder?

4. My understanding is both sunnis and shias agree that Yazid was corrupt and a total disaster. Is that right?

5. If Shias come from the camp that supported Imam Hussain during Karbalah, then what camp do Sunnis come from? Do we automatically come from the Muawiyah camp? Can you be Sunni and simply not think Muawiyah was a fit leader, and that he may have been corrupt?

6. Do Sunnis recognize that historically that Hasan and Hussain SHOULD have been caliphs over Muawiyah? Or if you believe that, does that make you Shia? Could it mean you just have a political opinion and it doesn't make you shia or sunni?

7. The Shias discount hadith of Abu Hurairah. Can you be Sunni and also consider it suspect that Abu Huraira managed to collect SO MANY hadith and that some of these hadith, especially the anti-female ones, may be inaccurate of the real sunnah of the Prophet?

8. Can Sunnis do Majlis? Can they commemorate the events that happened in Muharram and recount the history of the atrocities that happened to Imam Hussain and Imam Hassan without necessarily believing in some sort of infallibility or divinity of Ali (R)?

9. Do all Shias have a different Kalima where they add the Ali (R) part to the end of the Kalimah?

Sweetheart I attended mosque here in London form the age of 5 to 16, 2hrs, 5days a week - it was hanafi. Anyway, once I got a bit older, i'm 29 by the way, I started to read, everything and anything - the 4 mhadabs, giving credence to jurisprudential rulings by al azhar, al ghazali, different biographies of the prophet (loved the one by Martin Lings btw, well worth a read), different sufi traditions from shariat compliant sufis such as Hajweri to those that seem a bit looney (lol) like Rumi and Shams Tabreez, Twelver shia books, ismaili books etc you get the jist of what I'm saying, won't bore you with a complete bibliography lol. Anyway, what I had been programmed to believe turned out to be bs imo. Sunni Islam seems to be heavily loved up with Ummayid clan imo. suffice to say my inclinations are more shia leaning now (I was once totally anti-shia) although I don't beat my self or go to shia mosques or anything nor do I curse Shahaba. To me it's simple, I have mates, but who knows me better my mates or my family?

Also, sunnis tend to hate logic, they say even a shaih hadeeth defies logic, one can't question it, lol - dissect the hadeeth about keeping fast on 9th and 10 th of Muharram due to Moses, lol, enough said! Similarly, some things shia say and do imo are bat**** crazy. For example, the sixth imam, Imam Jafar (AS) allegdly says that when going to majalis for Muharram, even if you have no tears flowing from your eyes, force yourself to cry? LIke seriously? I class my self as Muslim, neither shia nor sunni, not the best of Muslims mind you, lol. Just read, don't let fat mullahs who scream and screech from the pulpit influence you - they are the reason why muslims are in the state they are today. SUnni's also tend to be accepting of the innovations of Umar (ra) yet "Zaban pur tala lug jata hai" when anything Ali (AS) centric is raised, it is simply shouted down as shia propaganda. Just my two cents.

[badabing]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

The dude you spoke to sounds like me, lol.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Well, he talks about how there was a spiritual talent that was passed down from Rasulullah (SAW) to Ali (R), and that Ali (R) had mastered spiritual skills that others hadn't and therefore, he is the first "Imam" or spiritual leader, whereas the other caliphs (the first three), didn't have that spirituality. That this "spirituality" was passed down from father to son from Ali (R)'s blood line, and the idea seems a lot like "sainthood".

Not "prophethood", in the sense they were not getting divine scripture revealed to them. But that they were guided by a divine sense or that Allah was guiding them and them only on the right things so they are the true spiritual successors to Rasullullah (SAW).

In other words, people should have been going to Ali (R) for all their spiritual guidance after Rasulullah's (SAW) death and thereafter to every male in the lineage from Ali (R) and Fatima's (R) line.

Except Rasulullah had 3 other daughters, two of them were married to ... I forget - Uthman? Umar? (always get those two mixed up - "U" 's) - so no successors from these lines? Those daughters didn't have sons? Then I hear these theories that those girls weren't actual biological daughters, they were adopted since Khadija (R) was too old to have 6 kids with Muhammad (SAW).

I don't know from the sunni perspective I never heard of these things.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

*Unborn future Children of Ali Alaihis Salam and Fatima Alaihis Salam are to be Imam of the entire Ummat. For example Imam Mahdi, we Must follow Him, when He takes up the Fight. Imam Abdul Qadir Jilani is Shaykh of Shaykhs. And you heard the Barakat of Loving Hassan and Hussain is Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala's love for you! *

They are to be "Imams" of the Ummah, so then is that different than "Caliph" ? Were the Previous Imams, the 12 imams, deprived of their Imamat by these empires then? Should all the muslims have been following their interpretations of the hadith, for example, and does that render Al Bukhari and Al Muslim collections of Hadith invalid where Imam Jaffer Sadiq disagreed with them? Would this render all hadith by Bibi Aisha R and Abu Hurraira invalid?

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Imam Abdul Qadir Jilani -I do not know who this is?

[badabing]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Two hadiths too back up what the fella said, i'm gonna paraphrase them, can't be asked copy pasting at 3 in the morning. 1st one, prophet says I am the city of Knowledge, Ali is the gate, to get too the city go to the gate. Second one, prophet says whoevers maula (master) i am, Ali is his Maula. Now Sunnis say the second one occurred not for what your friend postulates, but because there was an allegation of theft leveled against Ali, so thus prophet said this. Like seriously - dude is the only man born inside the Kabba, married the prhets daughter (who by the way refused both Abu bakr and Umar) and yet was so morally corrupt as to have an allegation of theft levelled against him. God this spell check is pissing me off, British English please!

[badabing]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Imam Abdul Qadir Jilani -I do not know who this is?

He's basically the King of Sufi's, the best of saints outside of the shahaba or imams or ahle muhammad (pbuh). The guy described himself as not even a speck of sand under the hoof of a camel ridden by a sahaba.

[SindSagar]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

vroom Ji Allah SWT has the best and only label for us who we Muslims believe in AllahSWT and Allah SWT has called us all Muslims: more than a few time in our Holy Quran!

رَبَّنَا وَاجْعَلْنَا مُسْلِمَيْنِ لَكَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِنَا أُمَّةً مُّسْلِمَةً لَّكَ وَأَرِنَا مَنَاسِكَنَا وَتُبْ عَلَيْنَآ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ

2:128 "Our Lord! make of us MUSLIMS, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

furthur more until the Holy Prophet PBH passed away, the different labels that you refer to were not adopted right?

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Respecting and Loving the Prophet's family is one thing. But believing they had spiritual powers that others did not is a different concept. I understand this is a Shia belief, and not a Sunni belief. Both accept that Ali (R) and his descendents are to be respected, and why we mourn what happened in Karbala.

However, are they infallible in their ideas? I they are divinely guided and Allah is guiding their spirituality, then it follows they can't mislead people or make wrong decisions, at least not MAJOR sins or major BAD decisions.

I don't have a reason to believe any of the Imams that Twelver Shias follow had anything so wrong about them, or that they were doing the wrong things. They certainly stood up to Muawiyah and Yazeed. And that's fine, that they led a resistance to oppression.

But believing that they're in divine contact with Allah SAW or they have a spiritual connection with Allah SAW that is only exclusive to their blood line - is that a Sunni concept?

[badabing]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

*Unborn future Children of Ali Alaihis Salam and Fatima Alaihis Salam are to be Imam of the entire Ummat. For example Imam Mahdi, we Must follow Him, when He takes up the Fight. Imam Abdul Qadir Jilani is Shaykh of Shaykhs. And you heard the Barakat of Loving Hassan and Hussain is Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala's love for you! *

They are to be "Imams" of the Ummah, so then is that different than "Caliph" ? Were the Previous Imams, the 12 imams, deprived of their Imamat by these empires then? Should all the muslims have been following their interpretations of the hadith, for example, and does that render Al Bukhari and Al Muslim collections of Hadith invalid where Imam Jaffer Sadiq disagreed with them? Would this render all hadith by Bibi Aisha R and Abu Hurraira invalid?

Caliphs are chosen by men, like leaders today through wheeling and dealing, you scratch my back i'll scratch your back. Imams, believed by shia and certain sufi's, Nakhsbandi's I believe, are ordained by god.

[badabing]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Have you ever actually read cover to cover shaih Muslim or Bukhari, lol, you'll be surprised at what you read. Similarly, Shia have the Najul Balaga, some interesting (lol, putting it lightly) stuff in there to.

[badabing]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Respecting and Loving the Prophet's family is one thing. But believing they had spiritual powers that others did not is a different concept. I understand this is a Shia belief, and not a Sunni belief. Both accept that Ali (R) and his descendents are to be respected, and why we mourn what happened in Karbala.

However, are they infallible in their ideas? I they are divinely guided and Allah is guiding their spirituality, then it follows they can't mislead people or make wrong decisions, at least not MAJOR sins or major BAD decisions.

I don't have a reason to believe any of the Imams that Twelver Shias follow had anything so wrong about them, or that they were doing the wrong things. They certainly stood up to Muawiyah and Yazeed. And that's fine, that they led a resistance to oppression.

But believing that they're in divine contact with Allah SAW or they have a spiritual connection with Allah SAW that is only exclusive to their blood line - is that a Sunni concept?

Sunnis don't believe in no miraculous connection due to blood. That's a shia and Nakshbandi sufi thing (although other sufis believe it to a lesser extent).

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Two hadiths too back up what the fella said, i'm gonna paraphrase them, can't be asked copy pasting at 3 in the morning. 1st one, prophet says I am the city of Knowledge, Ali is the gate, to get too the city go to the gate. Second one, prophet says whoevers maula (master) i am, Ali is his Maula. Now Sunnis say the second one occurred not for what your friend postulates, but because there was an allegation of theft leveled against Ali, so thus prophet said this. Like seriously - dude is the only man born inside the Kabba, married the prhets daughter (who by the way refused both Abu bakr and Umar) and yet was so morally corrupt as to have an allegation of theft levelled against him. God this spell check is pissing me off, British English please!

Neither of these hadith's states there will be a blood line of spiritual leadership to be followed.

The danger with a blood line of ULTIMATE spiritual leadership is that it negates the work of any scholar that would go against any writings of the scholars that come from the blood line, ex Jaffar Sadiq. If any item or issue where Jaffar Sadiq differs from Abu Hanifa, then we as muslims should automatically go with Jaffar Sadiq. This is just an example. And clearly this wasn't done in the muslim world at the time. People had different schools of thoughts and theories and they debated each other in good natured approaches in public debates. If the blood line is the only group of people we should be listening to then ultimate religious judgement doesn't rest with anyone else.

That's not practical.

Anyway, the blood line doesn't even exist anymore, so who do we follow now? If this was an infallible blood line, Allah would have kept it going, no?

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Caliphs are chosen by men, like leaders today through wheeling and dealing, you scratch my back i'll scratch your back.** Imams, believed by shia and certain sufi's, Nakhsbandi's I believe, are ordained by god.**

This is the bit the boy was feeding to me, that there is a spiritual connection that the Imam has with Allah, that Allah chose that person to be an Imam, or the spiritual leader for all the ummah. But like I said, even Imam Jaffar Sadiq was not a Pope equivalent of his time. There were Imam Hanifa and Imam Malik who went on to find their own schools of thought, who were the very students of Imam Jaffar Sadiq. I would think if Imam Jaffar Sadiq, for example, had an immaculate imammat, then Abu Hanifa and Abu Malik wouldn't have bothered to come up with any independent ideas.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

vroom Ji Allah SWT has the best and only label for us who we Muslims believe in AllahSWT and Allah SWT has called us all Muslims: more than a few time in our Holy Quran!

رَبَّنَا وَاجْعَلْنَا مُسْلِمَيْنِ لَكَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِنَا أُمَّةً مُّسْلِمَةً لَّكَ وَأَرِنَا مَنَاسِكَنَا وَتُبْ عَلَيْنَآ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ

2:128 "Our Lord! make of us MUSLIMS, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

furthur more until the Holy Prophet PBH passed away, the different labels that you refer to were not adopted right?

Well did the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) tell us we were going to have a string of Divinely ordained Imams from his blood line? I think Prophet SAW telling people he loves his family and asking his followers to also love his family (he probably had some knowledge from Allah that his family was going to face murderous trials), is not the same thing as declaring the concept of Imaamat.

That's a pretty important concept of a "spiritual leader" of the ENTIRE UMMAH. You'd think the Prophet SAW would have mentioned it or that the Quran would order us to look for that person.

Sounds like a Pope position, which I didn't think Sunni Islam even agrees with. This doesn't mean you don't appreciate the Prophet's family and their contributions to early muslim community and their knowledge and character. It just means they are not popes with ultimate religious authority over everyone else.

[badabing]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Neither of these hadith's states there will be a blood line of spiritual leadership to be followed.

The danger with a blood line of ULTIMATE spiritual leadership is that it negates the work of any scholar that would go against any writings of the scholars that come from the blood line, ex Jaffar Sadiq. If any item or issue where Jaffar Sadiq differs from Abu Hanifa, then we as muslims should automatically go with Jaffar Sadiq. This is just an example. And clearly this wasn't done in the muslim world at the time. People had different schools of thoughts and theories and they debated each other in good natured approaches in public debates. If the blood line is the only group of people we should be listening to then ultimate religious judgement doesn't rest with anyone else.

That's not practical.

Anyway, the blood line doesn't even exist anymore, so who do we follow now? If this was an infallible blood line, Allah would have kept it going, no?

Lol, that's what i'm still trying to figure out, lol. Let me know if you find out before me!

[badabing]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

There are hadiths in lesser know books as to the 12 imams, but they are all refuted by the sunni scholars. At the same time, the Sunni big boys (Muslim and Bukhari) are banu Ummaya propaganda pieces imo. There are hadiths related to certain imams, for example, the sahaba who was i'll on the day of the battle of Kerbala so couldn't back Imam Hussain, narrated the prophet said he would meet the 5th imam and give prophets salaam to him - Jabir ibn Abd Allah I believe is his name.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

I think another good question is "Did Ali (R) tell people that he was a divine Imam?" - is there evidence for him saying such a thing? You'd think if he was given this position, he would have spoken up?

[badabing]

Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

I think another good question is "Did Ali (R) tell people that he was a divine Imam?" - is there evidence for him saying such a thing? You'd think if he was given this position, he would have spoken up?

Sweetheart, you keep going back to "where is it explicitly stated there are 12 imams with devine right etc" - but what you are either not grasping or choosing not to is that you start from a position of bias by basing your opinions solely on sunni literature which is pro banu ummaya yet "zuban pur tala laga huwa" when it comes to banu hashim. I was like you once (raised hanafi from 5-16) , until I started to read everythng and anything and base my beliefs upon the "Kirdaar" of the individual narrating a hadith or making a judgement (and yes, this required further reading!) rather then simply that it is shaih because imams muslim and bukhari had done the edited work already.