Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Society Religion & Philosophy
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I don’t want this to be a shia - sunni debate, especially in light of horrors being inflicted on shias in Pakistan.

(I know it will end up becoming a mud hurling event, eventually, so I ask mods shut it down when it starts inching that way).

I am talking to a guy who has a shia mom and sunni dad and somehow brings together the two traditions and it’s impressive, I just want to see what the sunni perspective is on traditions in Muharram.

So here are my questions:

  1. What does a Majlis consist of ? What’s the purpose of this tradition? What is done during the day of Majlis? Which days is it done on and how many days?

  2. My dad is telling me that Majlis can even be held by sunnnis, and when my dad was growing up in Pakistan, they held Shaam e ghareeban in sunni mosques as well.

  3. Do Sunnis hold that Muawiyah was corrupt and trying to get his son into leadership? And that his treatment of Imam Hasan was wrong? Is there evidence he was involved in Ali (R)'s murder?

  4. My understanding is both sunnis and shias agree that Yazid was corrupt and a total disaster. Is that right?

  5. If Shias come from the camp that supported Imam Hussain during Karbalah, then what camp do Sunnis come from? Do we automatically come from the Muawiyah camp? Can you be Sunni and simply not think Muawiyah was a fit leader, and that he may have been corrupt?

  6. Do Sunnis recognize that historically that Hasan and Hussain SHOULD have been caliphs over Muawiyah? Or if you believe that, does that make you Shia? Could it mean you just have a political opinion and it doesn’t make you shia or sunni?

  7. The Shias discount hadith of Abu Hurairah. Can you be Sunni and also consider it suspect that Abu Huraira managed to collect SO MANY hadith and that some of these hadith, especially the anti-female ones, may be inaccurate of the real sunnah of the Prophet?

  8. Can Sunnis do Majlis? Can they commemorate the events that happened in Muharram and recount the history of the atrocities that happened to Imam Hussain and Imam Hassan without necessarily believing in some sort of infallibility or divinity of Ali (R)?

  9. Do all Shias have a different Kalima where they add the Ali (R) part to the end of the Kalimah?

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

  1. And 2. Don't really know, but majlis means area to sit down

  2. No, no and no ...

  3. Gross exaggerations

  4. Sunnis have the four caliphs ... Sayyiduna Ali (RA) was the fourth ... Sunnis are with Sayyiduna Hasan (RA) and Sayyiduna Hussain (RA) ... But Sunnis also did not rebel from the authority and ones who gained or had power ...

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

  1. Sunnis recognise that Hasan (RA) was the better person to have caliphate, but he (RA) abstained to remove the fitnah ...

  2. Sunnis have a slightly different criteria of determining truth in Hadith ... We use narration and cross-referencing more, but Shi'a tend to use more interrogation over the meanings.

  3. I see the account of Karbala as an important historical event and we should learn from it.

  4. I don't know, but yes they have extra lines there...

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Wrong forum

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Really? I thought Sunnis see yazid as evil? Muawiyah did not kill Hasan ?

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

It was Hazarat Abu Bakr RA when he heard that our Holy Prophet Mohammad PBUH had passed away and even Hazrat Umar RA was telling people that he would cut off the head of those who say Mohammad PBUH had passed away!............Hazrat Abu Bakr RA reminded the people...Oh People those who worshipped Mohammad PBUH, Mohammad PBUH is dead!......those who worship Allah SWT ...Allah SWT never dies!

The reason I stated this important incidence in the history of Islam, I think it defines our religion in a short sentence.....Islam is not about worshipping human beings!

Like christanity where they raise Essa elaihisalaam to God status! Nauzubillah! or even some Muslims will raise humans to such high status to where they are willing to kill other Muslims if they disagree with them!

In my opinion this is the main issue between Sunni and Shia, we are quarreling over status of personalities, while all the time ignoring the message of Islam.

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

1) Majlis is sunat of Hazrat Zainab RA , Sister of Imam Aali Muqam Syedna Hussain AS , In the days of Yazeed Laeen , Haram Pak was a place of ementsy so she used to go there and tell the Hujaj about cruelness of Yazidi Force & What happened in Karbala .

2) your dad is right and prior to Zia era , it was often in Suni homes . My grand parents were often doing at home .

3) Sunis are not anti Muawia but Muawia is not a liked personality

4) Every Suni Fiqa is against Yazeed , Our Imam Abu Hanifa was the most soft about him
"Shaid us nay marnay say pehlay Allah say Maafi mang li ho aur Shaid Allah nay us ko maaf kar dia ho " Bura honay aur Zalim honay kay baray main kisi ko koi shak naheen

5) Sunies are also from camp of Hussain AS

6 ) Yazid came into power after killing of Imam Hassan so he damaged all .

7) No reply

8 ) Yeah , why not

10 ) Like others , Shia Mulla also tried to push Shia away from others so this all happened

Best way to know this all , read 'Nahj ul Balagha and Sahifa e Kamla but with open eyes and mind

Ali AS aur Hussain AS both were Sunni

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

From the history books I read Yazid wasn't looked at as evil as people see now (many centuries later), in early days in the rivalry against Shias many of Yazid's excesses were 'forgiven', in those days Shia vs Sunni was at much more extreme which included Sunnis calling names of Hazrat Ali RA while Shias called names of the 3 khulafa rashideen.

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

It is called 'Tabarra" and it started from 'Darbar' of Ameer Muawia

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

I could answer the questions individually, and perhaps I will later

Just wanted to clarify the Sunni position on Yazeed. And what i am saying is the Sunni position!, Sunni as in Traditional Islam of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah [not representative of the newer protestant movement which also calls itself sunni]

The position on Yazeed is that a person is not prevented from referring to him as a Kaffir. Imam Abu Hanifa recommended silence on him, but Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal made takfir of him [referred to him as a kaffir]!

A couple of other Imams have used his case as example case of why takfir is so complicated, and to encourage us to refrain from it [takfir]

So Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah are not friendly towards him. but if you base your knowledge on the newer protestant movement, and especially those khawarij who take themselves as hyper anti shia - they sometimes try to defend yazid in a glorifying way.

Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah are not yazidis, WE ARE HUSSAINIS - That is Hussain Alaihis Salam

It just so happens that the khawarij have always been hidden among the general sunni populous, and one of the nawasib that i have personally identified and been disgusted by is called yasir qadhi

I can post, if anyone needs it, both traditional Sunni (Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah) prospectives on Karbala and Nawasib influenced ones.

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

hain? Don't they say " May god be pleased with him after his name ?

and both are sunni ?

Guriya the best thing to do is read from the passing away of the last prophet , the events, life, and the death of his daugher , son-in law to the last survivor of karbala .

Read both sides version with open mind , you will know which makes more sense

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Who is yasir qadhi?

Is that the american scholar that goes around doing speeches?

What's a nawasib?

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

In Sha Allah we wont be quarrelling with shia over personalities but you might find yourself neither in the sunni nor the shia camp

In the case of the Hadith you quoted it is important [critical] that we accept the death of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam. There is other proofs, in the Sahihs, that RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam only tasted death, He SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is actually alive in a better life form then anybody else. If you quoted the full hadith, the text does confirm Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala will not combine two deaths upon RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam as is to be done for the ordinary creation

I suppose you will have gathered other 'evidences' to support your non sentimental viewpoint. Dude ask Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala to help you gather your feelings into that of a good Muslim, that's all i can say. Without adequate Islamic sentiments we are not Muslims

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Ok here is another question. I talked to this guy a little more, because he initially told me he considers himself sunni, but now that I dissected out his beliefs he admits he is more of a combination of shia and sunni and that he sides more with sufi beliefs, which sound cool and all because they're peaceful, but then I didn't realize this following point, so some guidance from sunni schools of thoughts would be appreciated.

  1. First time as a sunni I heard this. Ali (R) was a spiritual leader and spirituality and knowledge of the unknown and of how to control the nafs was passed down from Muhammad (SAW) to Ali (R) and so therefore he is an IMAM and the rest of his progeny also had this spirutality passed down to them. That its not necessary he was to be the first caliph but he was indeed the next spiritual leader after Muhammad (SAW)?

Huh?

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Yes that dwarf looking guy who tries to talk like an academic. Both psyah and tahurra recently referenced to him, and i was biting my tongue. He did a talk on karbala and in it he tried to implicate Imam Hussain Alaihis Salam as wanting power, power hungry ASTAGFIRULLAH

A nawasib is a person who has dislike for the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam’s family or progeny

As for Sunnis, lets take Abu Bakr Alaihis Salam, in the Sahih, hoped for his father to be sacrificed for Imam Hassan Alaihis Salam! That’s a Sunni. I think the wording is may my father be sacrificed for you! You -means the dhat - the person of Hassan Alaihis Sallam because He was Grandson of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam

This short video is the correct view of Ahul bayt as per Sunni Islam versus the yasir qadhi types, some Hadiths and Ayats are cited, many many more available on this topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaaftnNUV08

pakistani link:
The Prince Of Jannah - Imam Adil Shahzad

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

This needs to be in Religion forum. Ali RadiAllahu Anhu is the gate of knowledge, if you want knowledge on Islam, beneficial knowledge, you must go with His Love ! You have two sciences in islam, shariah [rules, dos donts] and tassawuf [actually feeling Islam]. All the Sufis trace their tariqats through Ali Alaihis Salam except one who are certainly not far from Ali Alaihis Salam.

But there is no actual rules that Ali Alaihis Salam must be taken as the Imam, the first Imam, or the last.

According to Sunni Islam, many companions were better [urdu afzal?] at some things then other companions. Overall Abu Bakr Alaihis Salam is the best companion, followed by Umar Alaihis Salam, followed by Uthman Alaihis Sallam, followed by Ali Alaihis Salam.

Ali Alaihis Salam being taken as the spiritual leader of the tariqats is a proof that He is afzal in that respect, and some people do say this means He is first in this regard but it should not interfere with our fundamental belief which shias do not believe that Abu Bakr Alaihis Salam and Umar Alaihis Salam are the first and second Imams respectively

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Yeah this is gonna end well.

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

As far as Yasir Qadhi is concerned he used to be a salafi, in recent years he seems to have changed and become a traditionalist Sunni. Don't know about nawasib. All I know is that in the past there used to be more tolerance for Shia rituals, I have even seen women from my family reading a book called pakbaz bibian (maybe during Muharram), can't even think about that now.

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Re: Sunni Perspective on Shia Traditions

Although this topic is a religious discussion, but due to prevailing sectarianism it is as much relevant to Pakistan affairs as anything...

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  • I am not aware we are supposed to be ranking the caliphs in terms of how spiritual and close to God they were. The order you have listed here is the order in which they held a caliph position.

-If Ali is a "gate of knowledge" , then this means sunnis accept the concept of "sainthood", "imams"?

-Can't an "imam" be just someone who leads a prayer? That's all I thought they were, people who led prayers.

-Can't one be a scholar and develop a closeness to God and not be from the Ahl-uh-Bayt? And if this is the case, then why do we automatically assume every progengy from Ali's blood line is an Imam, and that the entire blood line is pure? Maybe Rasulullah prayed that Allah grant purity to his "family", but does this include unborn future generations from Fatima and Ali (R')'s lineage?