Students raid Islamabad brothel

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

Without four eye witnesses willing to testify,** NO**, no one can make allegation on anyone of Zina (adultery or fornication). Even if the person is certain that someone has done adultery or fornication, that person cannot accuse (make allegation) unless that person have four witnesses to stand behind his accusation.

Now, four witnesses means, people that saw clearly with their own eyes, without ambiguity, that adultery or fornication happened, not that they just assumed. [In reality, to find such witnesses is impossible and thus if a person is punished, that can only happen in Islamic society, on volunteering confession willingly and asking to get punished]. 

 Quran is clear about that in surah Noor (24): ayah 4.

Surah 24, ayah 4:
*YUSUFALI:* And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

Rape is different matter (confirmed from hadith too), as that does not need four witnesses, but allegation by the women is sufficient for state to look for any sort of proof. Rape is not zina but it is fitna-ul-ard and crime against the women.

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

I would like to offer my services for flogging Maulana Abdul Aziz and others involved in making accusations against those ladies.

I would like to deliver flog #3 and #10.

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

Hmmmm........

So what happens in cases like brothels where there are no eye witnesses who have seen the act. Like for example, in a neighbourhood, there are strange people who come in house and there are pimps have been caught taking money from people for illegal services but no one has seen the "act" itself?

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

Abhey i don’t want that Mullah to impose shariah like a Maula Jat:grumpy:

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

well I guess than it means that either you cant charge the perps, or it means that you have to revisit the shariah and come up with a better interpretation for the modern era :)

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

hmm :slight_smile: Ask Allah :halo:

Nevertheless, what you say if I make allegation on you or someone completely innocent, on that basis you mentioned? For instance, I believe or had this illusion, that I saw people visiting your house (or house of that innocent person) whom I assumed as customers (though they may be friends) and suppose I saw that you (or that innocent person) taking money too (though it was just for something sold or loan returned)?

Well, I might even make allegation because I do not like you (or that innocent person), so? What you think? Would that be fine for me to make allegations on such personal belief or assumption (be that right or wrong)?

One can call a place brothel only after proof confirmed, else that could be anyone’s house, that accuser assumes to be brothel. You cannot call any house brothel just because you believe that to be brothel, without certain proof. Else anyone could call anyone’s house brothel, just on assumptions.

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

Addition to above mail: Why a Muslim is not allowed to make allegation of Zina on someone (that includes prostitution)? Well, if anyone dares to make such allegations, that person has to back that with four eye witnesses, else be prepared to get severe punishment. Why?

Supose, if a place could have been declared brothel, women could be declared prostitute, and anyone seen taking money declared pimp, how about today I make allegation that the madrassa is actually brothel in the cover of madrassa, all those ninja girls of that madrassa are prostitutes, and all Maulana of that madrassa are pimps selling the body of those ninja girls for money.

I can also claim that the people that give donation to madrassa are actually customers of those ninja girls. The madrass was built and pays for it’s running from the immoral earning of those girls. All that lives in that madrassa are living on immoral earning of those ninja girls.

I can claim that those maulanas took money in front of my eyes from strange people (well, I may have seen people giving donations). I can also claim that state are not doing anything against the illegal occupation of government land that madrassa occupies, because those pimp Maulanas are providing ninja prostitutes to government functionaries.

Now, on my allegations (without proof of eye witnesses), should all of us and everyone start calling that madrassa brothel, those ninja girls prostitutes and maulanas in that madrassas pimps? Should we start kidnapping those ninja girls and make them confess that they are prostitute and from today they would leave their immoral act?

Let say that its not only me, but I have 100 friends that are with me in assuming that what I believe, and are willing to be witness too (witness of their belief). Would that be fine?

Well, won’t it be right that if such happen, I and my friends should be called in court and should be questioned, how we assumed what we assume? We should be questioned that when we are claiming those girls to be prostitute, did we saw them doing Zina with our own eyes? Did we really saw they had sex and can confirm that intercourse happened? How close we were when that Zina happened? What we were doing there when Zina was happening? What we did? Did we saw and saw what?

Now, if in court we cannot justify our proofs or being eye witnesses, apart of exonerating those girls of prostitution accusation, should court leave me (and my friends) without punishing? Just imagine that I have made a severe allegation, without clear proof, just on my own assumption, maybe enmity or lies.

Won’t it be fair that I should get severe punishment too? As severe as the allegations I made, rather more severe?

Well, I might be telling truth and only Allah knows best. Maybe I saw all with my own eyes that ninja girls were doing prostitution and that maulana was taking money from customers, and that the madrassa is really brothel. But, I have no proofs and hence my position would be same as in first case, where all my assumption was based on lies, misunderstanding, or illusion.

Nevertheless, does the court or those I am telling the story would (or should) believe me? And why they should believe me or anyone, be me or that person has best of character, or liar? Situation on basis of proof would be same and judgement needs undeniable and clear proof to convict someone.

So, is it not right that after making such allegations without undeniable and clear proof, I deserve punishment comparable to the severity of the allegations I made?

Well, well, Allah has already ordered for such person, that the person should be punished with 80 lashes plus other punishment. That is regardless of the person alleging telling truth or lies, as only Allah knows the best and that what alleging person is saying is true or lies. Allah has given no human being to know anything without seeing something with their own eyes or having multiple proofs from undeniable and clear sources (that is eye witnesses).

Thus, according to the command of Allah, no human being, however good or bad that person be, should make such severe allegations like Zina on anyone, without having the backing of 4 clear and undeniable eye witnesses.

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

But what if for example, many people have seen you taking money for letting them in your house, and you are for example known to be a pimp and several truthful people of the area say that you have offered them sex for money, wud you still be above the law?

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

Brother, either you comment without reading or just trying to keep arguing for the sake or argument :) Thora sa time nikalo, read everything, than comment. That would be best :)

First of all, how can anyone say that I or for that matter anyone is Known pimp? Did i found a customer for them?

Suppose if I or anyone let them in their house for Zina, were then these people who are alleging me or that person pimp, were Zani themselves? And if they were, should they not be punished for Zina? They confessed as they claimed that they paid money for Zina, right? Else they could not claim that I took money for supplying girls, as if they saw me taking money, it could be for many other reasons. Hence, they are Zani. One cannot accept a Zani as witness, so their witness is invalid anyhow.

If they saw me or anyone else taking money, than they have to clearly know that money was taken for what, and that how they know that what the money was for? They should tell, how they are sure of what I or anyone doing? Were they giving money? If they were giving money, than for what they were giving money? Are they customer for prostitutes? If they were, they are Zani as someone who goes to prostitutes is Zani? If they are Zani, is their witness acceptable? Obviously they as witness are unacceptable.

As for claim that witness accusing are of good character and truthful, then how? Who says they are of good character or truthful? Obviously, they could not be of good character or truthful to allege someone without any concrete proof. And if they have concrete proof, that would mean they were customers too, hence could not be of good character and truthful.

So, sorry to say, all arguments you gave and scenario you put is nothing but BS. :D

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

Then you leave the judgement up to God. Why is that so hard to accept? Doesn't your religion teach you to submit to God? Or is God too stupid to figure out whether these people are innocent or not?

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

^ I do not beleive that God has not createwd a mechanism to stop brothels from operating freely, unless 4 eye witnesses see the act.

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

Maybe these students should go to rural areas and help out their fellow women from being gang raped or thrown acid on them, etc.....

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

are you arguing with shariah? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

Who are you to ask, he is a righteous muslim.:D

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By the way i agree with you here, when it comes to poor helping poor women, none of these come forward, neither shariah enforcing Mullahs nor women rights activists like Asma Jilyani, i have read a case of a woman in Bhakkar being abducted and raped and police are not even agreeing get her forensically examined.

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

If that means that I think women being mutilated with acid, being gang raped, should be a bigger concern to these burka clad girls, then ya, I think thats a bigger priority than what they are currently doing

Why don't they issue fatwa against killing of women in rural areas ?

Why don't they promise to send suicide bombers to kill husbands who hurt and kill their wives or for tribal elders who sanction gang rape to even score ?

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

that was a question for you sir :)

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

^I do not consider sa1eem to be an expert in shariah, i was just getting his "i know it better than you attitude"

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

so u are saying there is a shriah based mechanism that is agreed upon by scholars and has been formally included as acceptable evidence in shariah cases?

what is it?

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Re: Students raid Islamabad brothel

^ I'm trying to find out, i'll let yoy know.