Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

Its not about how much space is in the area. They need to make it more organized. Like someone here suggested - make groups - like now its your group's turn to go and throw kankrian. So that when a group is throwing rocks, those rocks are going where they are supposed to. You can't have a huge crowd and then chappals go flying at people that are in the way. You can thin out the crowd simply by some organization. That's IS the saudi's job. They want to have full control over running it, then they will take the criticism. Simple. Why are you getting so angry over it - its not like YOU are the saudi gov't.

Yes, you have a highly valid point - people and their jazbat need to be curbed as well. Like someone suggested, making sure that guides are controlling the members in their groups and their behavior and making sure that guides are not adding to the "jazbat" and firing people up can also help.

42

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

OK, so you have fulfilled the criteria of going to Makkah and visiting the Kaa’ba…

This part of the Quran you have fulfilled…Then you proceed to Mina, that too according to the Quran you have fulfilled…

So you sacrifice the animals, that too you have fulfilled according to the Quran…

Now, during the days that you will be there, what will you do? :rotfl:

Where do you get the rites of performance of Hajj from? What about going around the Kaa’ba 7 times? That’s not mentioned in the Quran…Do you just go to Kaa’ba and come back?

What do you do? If everything in the Sunnah is not obligatory regarding Hajj, then what do you do after you go there? :omg:

Please tell me PCG, I would love to know what you would do after you reach Makkah for Hajj…

43

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

They're are PEOPLE. You can't expect everyone to follow every iota of the Quran and Sunnah. Its impossible. Otherwise, they need to give Islamic quizzes to people before they come to do Hajj, which would be absurd. You need to have laws and arrangements that take care of preventing situations where people's stupidity comes roaring out. Regardless of how unIslamic it is. People have a responsibility, and the blame is on the people. But the governments exist to GOVERN people. If everyone followed their job as muslims, we really wouldn't have governments, now would we?

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Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.


First
Makkah and kaba are not two different things.
Kaba is in the city of Makkah

Second,

Umrah requires you to go to Kaba and perform it. so what is the difference as per your own invented Islam?

Hajj requires you to go to Makkah, Mina, Muzdalifa and Arafat.

The sermon of Hajj is also Fard; Do you know where the sermon takes place?

You do not have a slightest idea what Hajj is really.

45

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

Lajjo, I'd be more than glad to.

You go ahead and follow the Sunnah, but you don't worry about doing every single aspect of it, especially if it means involving the risk of being stampeded to death. I personally don't think that God would be mad if you kept your distance and maybe threw a pebble so that it flew like 3 inches from your nose, and then walked away from the scene.

Jeez, I seriously can't believe you expect people to harm their own bodies when God has asked you NOT to harm your own bodies. You force Sunnah down everyone's throat, but you forget the obviuos obvious OBVIOUS farz that everyone is responsible for. Asking people to go kill themselves is sheer irresponsibility. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

46

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

And so where does the throwing rocks come in? :)

By visiting Kaabha and Makkah, I meant just what you said. I do know the difference between Kabbah and Makkah, and I said nothing to make it seem otherwise, so keep your ego in check buddy. No need to falsify my words to make it seem like I don't know the basics of Islam.

47

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

Khilafah is farz. Why aren't you trying to establish it PCG?

Thank you.

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48

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.


ok... you tell me what is done in Muzdalifa

and why the staying in Arafat?

oh and what is the relation between Mina and throwing pebbles at Jumrah?

Gizzy kya bread ka tukra hai ?
Gizzy kya bread ka tukra hai ?
49

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

No no, you answer my question. You tell me where it says that you gotta throw chappals at this site, and where its okay if the chappal hits the head of the guy in front of you because you have a bad arm?

50

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

Crescent, you really should watch what you say. Where is khalifa in all this? How is khalifa farz, when the prerequisite farz of people actually acting like muslims is not established, and where the prerequisite of people WANTING a khalifa is not actually established, and where your image of an all-controlling khalifa is ACTUALLY Islamic?

:rolleyes:

Khalifa really has nothing to do with this, and from what I remember, the khalifa mongers are being beaten with kankrian in another arkaan (thread) of GS religion forum.

51

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.


ok let me tell you

you go to muzdalifa to collect the pebbles (at least 21) so that during three days of stay in Mina, you throw 7 pebbles a day to shaitaan (three different locations) .. I don't know where did you get Chappals as sunnah idea.

and then you have Arafat where Sermon takes place

and next day is Sarifice of animals.

Now say thanks.

52

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

You are right…Next time I go for Hajj :insha: I’ll throw the pebbles from my hotel room…:hehe:

No one goes there to die…Accidents happen and they die…

When the caravans before cars, planes, trains were available, people of all ages used to travel for months through the deserts to reach Makkah for Hajj…Thousands used to die and they all knew that…

By your logic, they shouldn’t have left their homes to begin with if they knew they were going to die…

You go out of your homes and every time you are outside, death can approach you…So why leave the house?

I swear PCG, sometimes I get the feeling you are becoming a schizophrenic…

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Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

^ prolly..

how can you ignore other farz and put emphasize on one.

and how do you fear death.

God.

I would love to die in the path of Allah. :rolleyes:

54

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

while the govt can do things to make things safer, responsibility also falls on the people. I chuckled at ashtray and aejaz's comments because unless you have been there you would not understand how some of the nigerian and sudanese hajis push and shove.

4 factors
1) improve flow..more levels maybe..better flow as people can enter throw pebbles (its actually pebbles, dunno why ppl write stones) and leave so crowds arriving and departing would never have to intermingle
2) stretch the duration..from when the ritual can start and when it can end
3) limit number of people...in our family usually only my dad went, same with other families. decreases the number of people out there, 2 million haajis dont all have to go.
4) better crowd control and better crowd training

I have fallen twice..one when i was too young to remember and my mother covered me to protect me while people walked over her and finally my dad had to pull both of us up.

once when a group of sudanese ppl just did not follow directions of security to not enter as the palce was packed and even we were leavign since there was no rooml but the entire group literally charged in..I fell, my dad fell, my brothers fell..luckily we were at the edge and did not get trampled by that group.

I am not saying that the logistics and all do not need to be improved, they have been and they need to keep improving them since it is clear that more is needed, but really hajis need to be more disciplined and do things properly, safely and in a way to not endanger themselves or others.

::: Flooder-e-Azam Haazir honnnnnnnnnn :::
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Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

^ exactly.

And yes they are building more levels, 5 to be exact.

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Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

pcg sometimes u create a big fuss by putting forward ur views about something that u have no idea about....
it'd be better if u first read the details and then put forward ur ideas....

and if u dont find anything in the Quran then try doing research on the famous hadith about hajj which states that Prophet (saw) said "khuzoo anni manasekikum"....

I am So Not
57

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

Armughal and to all the other armughal/aq groupies: I think we all agree that the place needs to be made more safer so that less people die from hajj. I personally would not want to go and see my parents trampled to death. If you want to see your parents trampled to death, then kudos to you. I frankly, have yet to see 1. a well done argument on why we need to throw rocks at this shaitaan thingy and 2. why the emphasis in this discussion is not on how things can be made better but rather on how great it is that so many people die in hajj. I'm sorry, I just can't accept hundreds of people being trampled to death in a stampede as a wonderful and beautiful spiritual experience.

58

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

let me address to your point number 2 first.

No one is saying that people should go to get died over there. Every possible things need to be done to make sure that such a tragedy does not occur. The point was that in case of accident where such a tragedy does happen, take it as the will of Allah and understand that whoever died, died one of the best death one can have.

Now coming to your point number 1:

shaitan thingie?
well… those are the three symbolic places where Iblees met Syedena Ibraheem:as: first as a child, then as a yongster and then as a grown up man (some narrations also tell us that eventually he came in the face of a big bull) so that he could stop Ibraheem:as: from sacrificing Syedana Ismail:as: and at that time Ibraheem:as: threw pebbles onto him and he disappered. So really it is part of hajj as a Sunnah of Ibraheem:as: made compulsory just like sacrificing of an animal made compulsory.

It’s a metaphor to reflect upon a great event of history. Throwing of pebbles is a part of hajj and not performing it nullifies one’s Hajj altogehter. It symbolizes the power of a human to threw away his or her wishes for the sake of Allah.

The soul of the whole Fard of Hajj revolves around these “Manasik” termed as Fard by Prophet:saw: himself.

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Who's avatar is the best ?
Who's avatar is the best ?
59

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

if u dont think its safe, dont go....
but dont blame saudi authorities for such accidents....
they r continously doing their bestto make sure such accidents dont occur....
its the people who r careless/selfish who cause such mishaps....
and if ppl r not willing to follow the guidelines u can never guarantee safety....

and u cant just skip it, cuz that way u wont have done ur hajj....
the EASE has been given off by the religion that if someone thinks he/she cannot handle the effort and does not consider it safe, he/she can have someone else do the stoning for him/her....

but to just skip it and forget the ritual, is to make fun of religion....
just like saying "hey this was acceptable in olden days, but Allah had no idea that the numbers wud grow so huge and hence we shud now abolish this silly ritual"....

60

Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.

Of course you wouldn’t…For if you realized and knew how truly fortunate they were to die in that state of Ihram, and the rewards they will receive from Allah :swt:, you would be praying every second and moment of your life to die like that…To die while performing Hajj…