Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
People killed in the stampede at Hajj will go to heaven. What about the injured once? Will they get another chance?
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
You really really Bad man:D , waise those touting the Dead Hajis are Guranteed Heaven, are part of the same parcel of people who issued Fatwas that the Tsunami and Earthquake victims were being subjected to Gods Wrath.
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
^ and u see no difference between people who die on puket’s beach and those who die in mina???
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
ARMughal Bhai,
like some one said earlier Death is Haq, how does it matter where one dies, eventually death is despatched by Allah, isnt it??
I apologise in advance to anyone whose Kin died in the Grave Tragedy, but have you heard the saying “Sau chuhe mar ker billi haj ko chali”, in the ones who died, there might have been some bad apple (God alone knows that).
at the same time among those dead in Phuket, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, India in the tsunami, and also people who perished in the Earthquake in Pakistan/India there might have been a Most Pious person. (again God alone knows that)
What gives you the right to decide the ultimate abode of an individual.
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
I think a lot of you are twisting what PCG is saying, but that's not really surprising.
Mr. Fraudia, what you touched on is what I was saying in my earlier post. Whoever applies for a Hajj visa needs to be thoroughly educated and trained on behaviour before they get to Saudi Arabia. Pushing and shoving is so unnecessary, but it happens regardless. I was pushed and shoved on a packed bus travelling from Muzdalifah back to Mina by a Sudanese/Nigerian man behind me. Despite me showing him that there was no where for me to move, he continued to push me until I moved his hand off of me.
Last year, both my father and brother were nearly trampled on during the flooding on the last day of stoning. A lot of people who perform Hajj simply do not listen and think that pushing and shoving will get them to where they want to go, when in reality, it only causes more problems. Basic things like respecting others while they are praying and NOT jumping over them as if you are playing leap frog is not adhered to or respected, so the whole drama that goes on during the stoning is not surprising.
Yesterday's tragedy was due to a bus and luggage falling from the top of the bus, people tripping over the luggage, followed by a huge stampede. What the bus was doing there and how did it even get there? I have no clue, especially since everybody WALKS from Mina to the stoning area. Even on the last day of stoning, most people walk from Mecca to the stoning area. How did the bus get that close??????
I can honestly tell you that when we went for the stoning, there was so much screaming going on, families were seperated, women were balling their eyes out cause they had gotten seperated from their loved ones, and people were just standing around. There was no smooth flow of people and the police and ambulance just stood there. What the police could have done is make sure there was a steady flow of people, but they just stood there smoking.
I know the Saudi government does a lot, but there is still a lot of room for improvements.
I honestly wouldn't mind if they completely forbade women from taking part in the stoning, cause it's those petite Indonesian women who tend to get trampled on or are screaming for help. Until they fix things, they should either extend the time frames for the stoning or control the number of people they allow in at a time.
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
For those who say its fortunate since they die in Hajj and are martyrs, to extend your argument, would it be equally fortunate if the government of say.. America, indiscriminately fired machine guns onto Hajis during Hajj and caused thousands of happy deaths? I put America there because thats a govt most of you would dislike, perhaps supplanting Saudi Arabia there might produce a different answer (and believe it or not, it has, for this very same question)
Yes people who die during Hajj will have their reward with Allah but that is no reason for not deploring unnecessary deaths. These are preventable deaths, and not seeing them as deaths that must be avoided isnt very far from supporting killing of hajis.
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
and u cant just skip it, cuz that way u wont have done ur hajj.... the EASE has been given off by the religion that if someone thinks he/she cannot handle the effort and does not consider it safe, he/she can have someone else do the stoning for him/her....
but to just skip it and forget the ritual, is to make fun of religion.... just like saying "hey this was acceptable in olden days, but Allah had no idea that the numbers wud grow so huge and hence we shud now abolish this silly ritual"....
Ditto.
**Its sad People fear death these days. Seeing how they post on these forums, its not a surprise why they fear death.
They tend to forget death is ordained by Allah. Life is indefinite.
There were survivors from the stampeded too. What about them? Did they die? No.
Learn to love the coming life, this life is a matter of 4-5 days.**
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
Yes people who die during Hajj will have their reward with Allah but that is no reason for not deploring unnecessary deaths. These are preventable deaths, and not seeing them as deaths that must be avoided isnt very far from supporting killing of hajis.
There is a difference between accident and murder...But, since you bring this up, the one dying from the guns of Americans will have a greater reward than those dying through an accident...
I say this because, when someone murders someone, the victim's sins are dropped upon the shoulders of the culprit making the victim free from sin as a Muslim murdered is a certain level of Shaheed...
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
Yes, but would you be angry at the americans or would you send Bush a thankyou email?
The point wasnt the difference in the manner of their deaths, but whether unnecessary deaths during hajj should be deplored. Because only when such deaths are considered deplorable does it make sense to think about preventing them. If they’re welcome occurrences, why try to prevent them?
If the agency of death is americans in one case, then the agency in the other case is the complacence of Muslims and willingness to accept these deaths as welcome, fortunate bounties.
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
will ahmedies that somehow get into mecca (with american passport),and get trampled to death, go to heaven?
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
The point wasnt the difference in the manner of their deaths, but whether unnecessary deaths during hajj should be deplored. Because only when such deaths are considered deplorable does it make sense to think about preventing them. If they're welcome occurrences, why try to prevent them?
** If the agency of death is americans in one case, then the agency in the other case is the complacence of Muslims and willingness to accept these deaths as welcome, fortunate bounties.**
The idea and reason behind any form of administration is the security and safety of the people...Governments have police, army, ambulances and doctors for the reason that life of the populace is safe and secure...
However, if that were the case, the best trained and equipped police in world is the USA's...Does that prevent it having one of the highest rapes, murders, shootings and lootings in the world? The highway system is one of the best in the world...How many thousands die every year?
The Saudi governement (when I was there) has done an exceptional job creating byways, emergency exits, directives and personnel to ensure the safety of every Hujjaj...
If the people themselves are unable to follow directives, is it the fault of the government? I know, the government being Arab and them being Wahabbis wants us to open up a serious can of whoopass on them, but you have to realize, in my view, the preparations for Hajj are excellent considering the number of people that converge in that small place in a short period of time...
True, deaths from not following directives is an unfortunate circumstance, but the authorities are doing their best to accomodate the even increasing number of pilgrims...
When they want to build hotels after removing some ancient structures, we hate them for it, when they want to expand the highways, we hate them for destroying the originality of the landscape, when they want to rebuild something stronger, we hate them for destroying a ancient artifact and many such cases...
Like I said, our prejudice against Arabs and Wahabbis goes deeper than the brainfood we are fed by the media everyday...It goes to a subliminal level and hence we can never be satisfied with anything Arabs ever do...It's the fashion these days...
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
Na, for all your victimnhood, I dont think the facilities in Saudi Arabia are at fault at all, rather the people themselves. Not that I lend broad brush support to what else they do, including some of the other things you mention there, for example destroying historic sites relevant to our religion's history such as the prophet's birthplace, kicking pilgrims in the guts, calling everoyne but themselves kafir and so on.. but I do believe that the Saudi Govt has done a good job of providing services for Hajj. Regardless of what services are provided there, with that many people involved, if they wanna stampede, theres going to damn well be a stampede.
More needs to be done though, both from a management of mobs perspective, to just educating people about it and giving this the attention it deserves, having more public debate on it, and maybe seeing if theres religious alternatives (i havent been through the religious references about this, so I cant comment more..) Just casting it off as a blessing from Allah on the fortunate ones doesnt help in my opinion, because it furthers complacency and a willingness to regard these deaths as acceptable.
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
More needs to be done though, both from a management of mobs perspective, to just educating people about it and giving this the attention it deserves, having more public debate on it, and maybe seeing if theres religious alternatives (i havent been through the religious references about this, so I cant comment more..) Just casting it off as a blessing from Allah on the fortunate ones doesnt help in my opinion, because it furthers complacency and a willingness to regard these deaths as acceptable.
Kicking in the guts? Ravage, I have been there...And those people who are directing and aiding the people, I have not met a people more gentler in their approach...Even after having faced more than 2.5 million people their smile and manners never leave them...
As for calling Kafir is concerned, I posted a link in another thread calle tabarra.com...
It states that those who believe in Abu Bakr, Usman and Usman Radhiyalla'taala anhum as Muslims are Kaffirs...
Why don't you show me a Salafi/Wahabbi/Ahl-e-Hadith site which states that any other sect is a Kaffir sect...
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
I haven't read all comments, but here's my two cents.
The fact that so many people die during this 'ritual' is actually testimony to the fact that the devil hasn't been won over. In contrast, all these barbaric deaths are actually the devil's revenge for stoning him. Only if people will be able to control the devil inside them and act as humans instead of barbarians will such deaths be prevented.
Secondly, the presupposition that persons dying in this stampede are martyrs, is a bit odd:
a hypothetical situation: on a certain hajj, I'm standing there and throwing stones towards the devil quite gently, and emphasizing the spiritual meaning instead of the physical. Suddenly I see a heard of mullahs on a stampede running towards me with 120mph. Now the question is: Am I allowed to stand still and get killed, thinking that I will go to heaven. OR will it be considered suicide that I did not attempt to escape, because only two meters from me, I could have hid behind a safe wall and prevented this death?
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
The fact that so many people die during this 'ritual' is actually testimony to the fact that the devil hasn't been won over. In contrast, all these barbaric deaths are actually the devil's revenge for stoning him. Only if people will be able to control the devil inside them and act as humans instead of barbarians will such deaths be prevented.
Secondly, the presupposition that persons dying in this stampede are martyrs, is a bit odd:
a hypothetical situation: on a certain hajj, I'm standing there and throwing stones towards the devil quite gently, and emphasizing the spiritual meaning instead of the physical. Suddenly I see a heard of mullahs on a stampede running towards me with 120mph. Now the question is: Am I allowed to stand still and get killed, thinking that I will go to heaven. OR will it be considered suicide that I did not attempt to escape, because only two meters from me, I could have hid behind a safe wall and prevented this death?
Its not the devil its the people.
Its not always a horde of Mullahs.
You are not obliged to kill urself.
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
well, I'm sure you'll agree that it's the devil that drives people to do certain (bad) things, or to make certain (bad) choices
well, usually the mullahs are the ones taking everything very literal, without any possibility of compromise and more importantly without considering whether the practicality of that thing/issue is achievable.
well, nowhere did I say I will see myself obliged to stand still; I'm rather saying am I allowed (= Not equal to being obliged) to stand still
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
The fact that so many people die during this 'ritual' is actually testimony to the fact that the devil hasn't been won over. In contrast, all these barbaric deaths are actually the devil's revenge for stoning him. Only if people will be able to control the devil inside them and act as humans instead of barbarians will such deaths be prevented.
Secondly, the presupposition that persons dying in this stampede are martyrs, is a bit odd:
a hypothetical situation: on a certain hajj, I'm standing there and throwing stones towards the devil quite gently, and emphasizing the spiritual meaning instead of the physical. Suddenly I see a heard of mullahs on a stampede running towards me with 120mph. Now the question is: Am I allowed to stand still and get killed, thinking that I will go to heaven. OR will it be considered suicide that I did not attempt to escape, because only two meters from me, I could have hid behind a safe wall and prevented this death?
Couple of things I would like to correct here...During the Hajj, the Shaitan has no bearing upon the actions of the Hujjaj...He is powerless because He has been 'chained'...
Second, I believe by 'Mullahs' you are referring to long bearded peoplw whom you have an innate aversion to...
In my experience, the most slow, steady and gentle Hajj was performed by these 'Mullahs' for a couple of reasons...
1) When they are there, they savour each and every moment of the Hajj...They never rush, never try to hurry through the rituals making sure everything they do is done perfectly and astutely...They take their time and are most obliging of others so as not to hurt other's feelings because they know better then to hurt another Haji during Hajj...That is a strict nono...They have tears in their eyes as they relish each and every nook and cranny of Makkah and Madina...
Obviously you not being there and with the daily dose of brainfood you receive, your preceptions about 'Mullahs' is understandable...It's not your fault...You just spoke from the top of your hat, so to speak...
2) The rushing that I have seen was mostly done by the non-bearded modern looking people beacause since Hajj for them is a tough ordeal, they want to go through the rituals ASAP without a concern for other Hujjaj...They elbow, look for shortcuts, push, get angry at those behind them and front of them and can't wait to just rush through everything...It's like they were sent there as a punishment...
As for your standing there as a massive surge of humanity comes towards you, it would be foolish of you to try and have yourself killed deliberately to seek martyrdom...You make and take every possible precaution to save yourself otherwise it would be suicide...
If however you do not make it, then you are a martyr...
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
Don’t tell me that the hajj by all persons involved is done with totally clean consciousness? I’ve heard numerous stories of things getting stolen etc etc. Where did those actions come from?
I think I made my definition of mullahs clear in the post to Crescent. Perhaps, you were typing this post and you didn’t read it. So do read it and tell me if the rest of your post about mullahs is still applicable and whether I should reply to it.
That’s exactly the paradox:
- deliberately standing still is not right, since it will lead to suicide
- on the other hand, we are all told to do everything we can to attain martyrdom since it’s the best death you can wish for----> so the easiest way to attain martyrdom would be to just stand still
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
The kind of martyrdom that one should seek is in Jihad…Not while on a pilgrimage…Martyrdom through and accident is just that, through and accident…Deliberately, it’s considered suicide…
Someone once asked a scholar, whether it is permissible to ask for death since one has performed Hajj and one is absolved of all sins…
The Shaikh gave a very nice reply…He said how would you know that your Hajj has been accepted that you should ask for death? Maybe you did something during the Hajj which nullified it and it wasn’t accepted…
But, there is a Dua which should be upon the lips of every Muslims…It is, that may Allah :swt: deliver me from this Earth when I am in the best of my states as a Muslim, (or something like that…I do not remember the exact Dua but this was context)…
Meaning, to take my life to Himself, when I am in the condition of most piety that I’ll ever be in…
And for the likes of you and me, that can only happen when our Hajj is accepted…And obviously, those that died, died **during **the Hajj…And those that die **during **te Hajj, they are considered as martyrs…
No matter how bad apples they may have been…
Re: Stoning the pillars/walls at Hajj.
Ok, so since its fardh then looks like I'll inshallah do it.
Note: It's not the idea of dying on Hajj that worries me at all, since it is well known that such a death carries a great reward. My concern would be leaving my family without a breadwinner.