[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** Who decides who is "ignorant"?**
[/quote]
many people here reject hadith completely, they dont even accept single one, saying there could be a possiblity of anyone hadith man written.
Malik's Muwatta
Book 41, Number 41.1.1:
Malik related to me from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar said, "The Jews came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and mentioned to him that a man and woman from among them had committed adultery. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, asked them, 'What do you find in the Torah about stoning?' They said, 'We make their wrong action known and flog them.' Abdullah ibn Salam said, 'You have lied! It has stoning for it, so bring the Torah.' They spread it out and one of them placed his hand over the ayat of stoning. Then he read what was before it and what was after it. Abdullah ibn Salam told him to lift his hand. He lifted his hand and there was the ayat of stoning. They said, 'He has spoken the truth, Muhammad. The ayat of stoning is in it.' So the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, gave the order and they were stoned . "
Abdullah ibn Umar added, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to protect her from the stones."
Malik commented, "By leaning he meant throwing himself over her so that the stones fell on him."
Chapter 3: PRESCRIBED PUNISHMENT FOR AN ADULTERER AND AN ADULTERESS
SAHIH MUSLIM
Book 017, Number 4191:
'Ubada b. as-Samit reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.
Book 017, Number 4192:
'Ubada b. as-Samit reported that whenever Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) received revelation, he felt its rigour and the complexion of his face changed. One day revelation descended upon him, he felt the same rigour. When it was over and he felt relief, he said: Take from me. Verily Allah has ordained a way for them (the women who commit fornication),: (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried male with an unmarried woman, then in case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death). And in case of unmarried persons, (the punishment) is one hundred lashes and exile for one year.
Chapter 4: STONING OF A MARRIED ADULTERER
Chapter 5: HE WHO CONFESSES HIS GUILT OF ADULTERY
Book 017, Number 4196:
Abu Huraira reported that a person from amongst the Muslims came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) while he was in the mosque. He called him saying: Allah's Messenger. I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away from him, He (again) came round facing him and said to him: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away until he did that four times, and as he testified four times against his own self, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called him and said: Are you mad? He said: No. He (again) said: Are you married? He said: Yes. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Take him and stone him. Ibn Shihab (one of the narrators) said: One who had heard Jabir b. 'Abdullah saying this informed me thus: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the place of prayer (either that of 'Id or a funeral). When the stones hurt him, he ran away. We caught him in the Harra and stoned him (to death). This hadith has been narrated through another chain of transmitters.
[quote]
Originally posted by reza khan:
** many people here reject hadith completely, they dont even accept single one, saying there could be a possiblity of anyone hadith man written. **
[/quote]
If the same people had only understood the whole Quran by reading the translation in their language and tried to learn arabic in order to find out the real meaning and read and understood the thafseer, they wouldn't reject the Hadith like they do.
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** Who decides who is "ignorant"?**
[/quote]
How about having four (4) guppies testify to the ignorance of individual?
Different Brother
You really have got it wrong.
Stoning someone to death and giving someone 100 lashes, are two totally different punishments.
If the Qur'aan has stated clearly and categorically the punishment due for a certain crime, then nothing else needs to be added or subtracted from the order.
If this happens, then the whole question of the protection, authenticity and challenge of the Qur'aan comes into question. Fortunately, this can never be!!
The Qur'aan does not need add ons.
Please read the ayat and just ponder over it's meaning:
024.001 A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition.
024.002 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
024.003 Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
If you stone to death, then the above 2 ayats become null and void, as how can a dead adulterer marry!!
Please don't dig the hole even bigger!!
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Different Brother
You really have got it wrong.
Stoning someone to death and giving someone 100 lashes, are two totally different punishments.
If the Qur'aan has stated clearly and categorically the punishment due for a certain crime, then nothing else needs to be added or subtracted from the order.
If this happens, then the whole question of the protection, authenticity and challenge of the Qur'aan comes into question. Fortunately, this can never be!!
The Qur'aan does not need add ons.
Please read the ayat and just ponder over it's meaning:
024.001 A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition.
024.002 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
024.003 Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
If you stone to death, then the above 2 ayats become null and void, as how can a dead adulterer marry!!
Please don't dig the hole even bigger!!**
[/quote]
Not every adulterer is being stoned!
A woman cannot be married to 2 men at the same time!
So if a married woman commits adultery, does she lose her marital status?
Infact the other verses you have quoted support the view that the punishment of flogging is for the adulterer and the adulteress who are un-married!
Try pondering over this now!
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
** How about having four (4) guppies testify to the ignorance of individual?**
[/quote]
Not acceptable!
How can one prove that all (4) are not just (1) in disguise?
Different
Please read a liitle more of the ayats from the Surah, before celebrating:
024.004 And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
024.005 Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft-
Forgiving, Most Merciful.
024.006 And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
024.007 And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
024.008 But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
024.009 And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
024.010 If it were not for Allah’s grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft-
Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed).
So you see, the punishment for married or umarried Adulterers is the same.
If you still don't get it, then good luck to you!!
sholay,
we don't even need that..
Ponder over this:
[an-Nisa' 4:25.62] And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
PakistaniAbroad: Allah has given us the punishment for a married believing maiden. The punishment is half that which is to be inflicted upon free women.
Now tell us Mr. Different.. how do we stone someone halfway to death??
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Different
Please read a liitle more of the ayats from the Surah, before celebrating:
024.004 And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
024.005 Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft-
Forgiving, Most Merciful.
024.006 And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
024.007 And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
024.008 But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
024.009 And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
024.010 If it were not for Allah’s grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft-
Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed).
So you see, the punishment for married or umarried Adulterers is the same.
If you still don't get it, then good luck to you!!**
[/quote]
Brother the verse 24:4 follow's 24:3 which is clear that the subject in discussion is regarding unmarried adulterer and adulteress and then verse 24:6 seperately discusses about the married.
And when discussing about the married adulterer/adulteress, if the punishment would have been the same then the accuser and the accused would not be asked to take an oath so severe.
Different
Pakistani Abroad has raised a very good point.
And just to help you out a little bit, here are 3 Translations of the ayat quoted from PA:
004.025
YUSUFALI: If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Take a pick and answer.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**sholay,
we don't even need that..
Ponder over this:
[an-Nisa' 4:25.62] And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
PakistaniAbroad: Allah has given us the punishment for a married believing maiden. The punishment is half that which is to be inflicted upon free women.
Now tell us Mr. Different.. how do we stone someone halfway to death??**
[/quote]
004.024
YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
004.025
YUSUFALI: If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
In verses 24-25, the word "muhsanat" has been used in two different senses: 1 "Wedded women" enjoying the protection of their husbands; and 2 "Free Muslim women" enjoying the protection of their families even if they be un-married. In verse 24, "muhsanat" has been used for "un-married free Muslim women" as against the slave-girls, as is clear from the context. On the contrary in verse 25 "muhsanat" has been used for the slave-girls in the first sense and it has been clearly stated that when they are married and enjoy the protection of their husband, the punishment for them will be half that of "muhsanat" (un-married free Muslim women) if they are found guilty of indecency.
quoted from S. Abul A'la Maududi
I will also find more on this from "Thafsir by Ibn e Kathir" InshaALlah.
It is very important to learn and understand Arabic.
PA and sholay,
The scholars did not miss this verse 4:25, and a lot of effort is involved by them.
I agree that there are fabricated Hadith too, but not all of them are, and the Hadith which are related to the stoning of the married adulterer and adulteress have a sound chain of authorities.
Torah is also a book of Allah and we do believe in it, and there is a Hadith which I have mentioned earlier in which the Torah was read in front of The Prophet where it was clearly mentioned that the punishment is stoning to death.
Different
I think that we have exhausted this issue to a vast extent, and the bottom line is that each person to their own.
I do accept Authentic A'Hadeeth, providing it does not contradict the Qur'aan. And on this ocassion the Qur'aan is very clear for me and therefore I reject the stoning punishment.
Salaam.
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Different
I think that we have exhausted this issue to a vast extent, and the bottom line is that each person to their own.
I do accept Authentic A'Hadeeth, providing it does not contradict the Qur'aan. And on this ocassion the Qur'aan is very clear for me and therefore I reject the stoning punishment.
Salaam.
**
[/quote]
If you really think that after proving so much from the Quran, you still find these Ahadith in contradiction to Quran? Then there isn't much that can be done.
But my view is that there is nothing in the mentioned Ahadith that is in contradiction to the Quran, if it were, the Ahadith would have been "Dhaeef" Ahadith.
The real issue is that those who think that these Ahadith are in contradiction to The Quran actually did not try to understand The Quran or its Thafseer, nor did they ever learn the Arabic language.
You asked me to choose my pick of the different translations available, but did you notice how just one word is translated differently in just 2 verses? Read it for yourself. In verse 4:25 the one PA originally quoted, first the word "muhsanat" is referred to as a quality that should be in an un-married "slave-girl" whom one intends to marry, then the same word "muhsanat" is used when describing the punishment should be equivalent to half of the punishment for the "muhsanat" in a similar issue, now you be a judge and tell me what do you understand by this?
It cannot be clearer than this. With regards to this particular issue, there is nothing in the Ahadith that contradicts The Quran. Nothing at all.
You may have your opinion, I respect that but since it involves Ahadith that have sound chains of authority, you are basically rising your voice over the voice of The Prophet, and it is not a simple issue.
May Allah have His Mercy on us and forgive us all, Aameen.
[This message has been edited by Different (edited April 25, 2002).]
Different,
Sholay is right.. you will not accept or see our viewpoint on this..
However i"m still curious.. how on earth can you claim hadith doesn't contradict Qur'an??
How do you explain this part of the hadith under question.. Please.. no dilly dallying.. just a straight answer
[quote]
I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.
[/quote]
Am i paranoid or is this hadith declaring our present Qur'an distorted???
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**Different,
Sholay is right.. you will not accept or see our viewpoint on this..
However i"m still curious.. how on earth can you claim hadith doesn't contradict Qur'an??
How do you explain this part of the hadith under question.. Please.. no dilly dallying.. just a straight answer
Am i paranoid or is this hadith declaring our present Qur'an distorted???**
[/quote]
I have to read the Arabic version of this Hadith before I make any comment on this.
Malik's Muwatta
Book 41, Number 41.1.1:
Malik related to me from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar said, "The Jews came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and mentioned to him that a man and woman from among them had committed adultery. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, asked them, 'What do you find in the Torah about stoning?' They said, 'We make their wrong action known and flog them.' Abdullah ibn Salam said, 'You have lied! It has stoning for it, so bring the Torah.' They spread it out and one of them placed his hand over the ayat of stoning. Then he read what was before it and what was after it. Abdullah ibn Salam told him to lift his hand. He lifted his hand and there was the ayat of stoning. They said, 'He has spoken the truth, Muhammad. The ayat of stoning is in it.' So the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, gave the order and they were stoned . "
Abdullah ibn Umar added, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to protect her from the stones."
Malik commented, "By leaning he meant throwing himself over her so that the stones fell on him."
Torah is also a Book Of Allah, and stoning was included in it. It was also practiced by the Jews of that time, as is clear by the Hadith mentioned above.
We being Muslims believe in what was revealed to The Prophets before.
If your concern is that stoning specifically is not mentioned in The Book of Allah, then this implies that you only consider The Holy Quran as the only Book of Allah.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**Different,
Sholay is right.. you will not accept or see our viewpoint on this..
However i"m still curious.. how on earth can you claim hadith doesn't contradict Qur'an??
How do you explain this part of the hadith under question.. Please.. no dilly dallying.. just a straight answer
Am i paranoid or is this hadith declaring our present Qur'an distorted???**
[/quote]
Chapter 4: STONING OF A MARRIED ADULTERER
Book 017, Number 4194:
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.
This Hadith is not declaring that the present Quran is distorted at all.
I mentioned this before, I'll repeat it again: Who could know about what part of a revealation is to be included in the Quran and what is not to be included in the Quran? Who could distinguish between a revealation to be a part of The Quran or being something which is not to be a part of The Quran?
Allah's Messenger SAW right?
Those people who were present at that time tried memorize every thing that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad as soon as it was made available to them.
This is where the argument of the prayer timings and the way we should pray fits in.
These things were revealed to The Prophet SAW and people did memorize it but, it was not included in The Quran.
So, now we have people like you who say: "We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah" and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.
.
[This message has been edited by Khoon-e-Shaheed (edited April 25, 2002).]