Large numbers?? Now, that’s really really really funny..
The Conditions for someone to be stoned to death:
(1) He or She should be married
(2) The should have committed intercouse (as the Qur’an puts it “Stuck together”) in front of **atleast 4 ** people. Remember, they should have seen them stuck together. If they saw them walking together to a room or a house, that’s not acceptable.
(3) The witnesses should be reliable - there are again conditions for that.
So, you see , the conditions for it are ** so difficult ** , it turns out that this punishment is hardly ever carried out. ** It is meant to be a deterrant so that such things do not become rampant and open in the society. ** For example, a country having this law cannot have the production of porn movies.
Also, the Holy Prophet (S) said that ** in the case where you do not have solid or convincing proof regarding a person accused of adultery, it is BETTER for the JUDGE to make the mistake of letting him free THAN to make the mistake of punishing him. ** (not the exact words).
Also, during the time of the Holy Prophet (S), there was a ** prostitute ** who was famous and well-known for her prostitution , but the Holy Prophet (S) had no proof against her. So, He (S) said that ** If I were to punish without proof, I would have punished her first. ** (not the exact words)
Well… guess what.. Western Media occasionally highlights some news of some woman (never male) to be about to be stoned to death but then I think the news gets buried deep down..
No, it’s 100 whips I think. Again, you need 4 witnesses for that. And while whipping, the Qur’an is held in the armpit of the one whipping, so that he cannot raise his arm high . This way the whipping will be very light - again it is meant as a ** DETERRANT ** - the Punishment is not the real thing here.
Man, I’d thought you had understood what I meant.
**NO, NOONE IS ALLOWED TO PEAK INTO THEIR HOUSE LIKE THAT - OR ELSE THEY’D BE PUNISHED FOR THAT. ** (Peaking in someone’s House is again forbidden in Islam).
** This requirement of 4 WITNESSES is there so that * NOONE COMMITS IT OPENLY * and so that * IT DOES NOT BECOME ACCEPTABLE IN THE CULTURE *. Also, It will * DISCOURAGE * people from disclosing their adultery to others - and so other people * WILL NOT RECEIVE ENCOURAGEMENT * to commit this sin. **
Man, I had stated earlier that this ** punishment is meant to be a deterrant, NOT A LICENSE ** to punish as many people as you can. Please, visit the Islamic world (especially where you have ** STRICT ISLAMIC LAWS **), you’ll find that this ** punishment is EXTREMELY RARE AND UNHEARD OF. **
For example, I remember reading a book, (which should have been written 10 years ago), that only ** one person ** had been stoned to death in Saudi-Arabia in the ** last 20 years **. I don’t think I’ve heard of any stoning in Saudi-Arabia in the last few years (again I’m not always upto date with the news), so I think it’s safe to say ** there has NOT been a SINGLE case of STONING to death in Saudi Arabia in about the LAST 30 YEARS. **
As I said earlier, this punishment is meant to be a ** deterrant **.
For example, you ** CANNOT ** make *** Porn Videos ** * in such a society.
Also, according to ** the Holy Prophet (S) if anyone commits ADULTERY, he/she SHOULD NOT * bring it to the notice of the AUTHORITIES, * but should RATHER repent to Allah in secret. ** . I cant find the exact quotes, but if you insist I’m lying, I can look them up for you - I think I read them in the commentary on Surah An-Noor by Moulana Mawdudi.
Or the Hadith-Experts here might be able to quote it for you.
Again, as I said, the ** REQUIREMENTS for the punishment are almost IMPOSSIBLE. **
For example, ** many sins that we take for granted or we consider them to be light or petty, * but if a person is known to commit them *, then he is considered as an * UNRELIABLE WITNESS. * **
Now, you tell me ** how many people would actually commit adultery (penetration - “stuck together” ) in front of 4 reliable, pious people? **
The requirements of this punishment are almost ** impossible ** to be met.
I know the ** Western and Indian media ** love to highlight such news, even when a person may be just on trial for adultery, and they ** never forget to mention, ** (rather they mention it * very enthusiastically and passionately) * that if a person is proven guilty then he may be stoned to death.
Also, this punishment is for ** both MALES ** and females.
Devil, Now you tell me, why does the Indian and Western media always portray Islam in such a bad light and spread so many lies about Islam?
** Had Islam not been the true religion, they would have never attacked it in such a vicious manner and spread lies over lies about it. **
The choice is upto you, whether to believe Islam is an uncivilized religion or not. I cannot force you in that matter.
Geeeeeez.. For two married people, committing adultery in the absence of their spoused, ** and that too in front of 4 reliable, pious people ** (the penetration act) - what do you expect is the right punishment for such shameful and hardened sinners.
** Ask their spoused what they’d feel ! **
Btw, ** I do not know of any married person who would commit the penetration act in front of 4 pious people ** .
Get it buddy, the command here is ** Do NOT commit adultery PUBLICLY ** . Committing adultery publicly is going to destroy the entire moral fabric of the society.
** It is something which even the Westerners do not do, except for the porn stars and some other freaks. **
So according to you.. what we have in the Qur’an is INCOMPLETE and it needs to be read together with what Bukhari and Muslim wrote because the Prophet and subsequent Caliphs couldn’t be sure what was in the Qur’an!!
Man i’m done with you and the likes of you..
…and they think MY views are deviant!!
So, PakistaniAbroad, do you mean that since the time of the Holy Prophet (S), the Sahaba and their successors had a secret conspiracy, and these thousands of people kept this secret to themselves without leaking it out???
How could thousands of people keep their lips sealed and agree to something that was not from the Holy Prophet (S) ?
It's not a disputed issue, and it's not like someone made up a hadeeth 150 years later, about which noone knew before.
If someone had simply madeup a hadeeth 150 years later, especially on such a grave issue, ** Why didn't the Scholars and other people object to that, ** since it was something strange and really new.
002.285
YUSUFALI: The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. “We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers.” And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.”
PICKTHAL: The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
SHAKIR: The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.
The Quran is not incomplete, nor is it distorted. The Quran is not the only Book of Allah.
[quote]
It's not a disputed issue, and it's not like someone made up a hadeeth 150 years later, about which noone knew before.
If someone had simply madeup a hadeeth 150 years later, especially on such a grave issue, Why didn't the Scholars and other people object to that, since it was something strange and really new.
[/quote]
That's precisely what happened.. why else would Bukhari etc spend years trying to find out which one's proper and which one's are concoctions?? It's because fabrications existed and OUTNUMBERED anything remotely authentic.
Really sometimes the naivete on this board is apalling.. READ SOME HISTORY .. PLEASE.. and the critique of non Mulims historians.
Bring me ONE book.. just ONE compilation .. just ONE from around 40 Hijrah (forget the abu huraira's student stuff.. that comes much later) when the Third Caliph distributed authorised copies of the Qur'an to all parts of the Islamic Empire..
According to your claim, the Caliph should have sent a compilation of Hadith too .. right?? because without that your religion is incomplete.
Guess what.. he didn't!! WHY?? cuz THEY DIDN"T EXIST!!!!! CAPICE??
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** Excellent.. and this 'WE' whoever they are.. what books other than the Qur'an do they need to complete their religion whatever that is??**
[/quote]
We, those who fear ALLAH
002.002
YUSUFALI: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
PICKTHAL: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
002.003
YUSUFALI: Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
PICKTHAL: Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;
SHAKIR: Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
002.004
YUSUFALI: And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
PICKTHAL: And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
002.005
YUSUFALI: They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
PICKTHAL: These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.
SHAKIR: These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.
002.006
YUSUFALI: As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
PICKTHAL: As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
002.007
YUSUFALI: Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
PICKTHAL: Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
SHAKIR: Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
**Malik's Muwatta
Book 41, Number 41.1.1:
Malik related to me from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar said, "The Jews came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and mentioned to him that a man and woman from among them had committed adultery. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, asked them, 'What do you find in the Torah about stoning?' They said, 'We make their wrong action known and flog them.' Abdullah ibn Salam said, 'You have lied! It has stoning for it, so bring the Torah.' They spread it out and one of them placed his hand over the ayat of stoning. Then he read what was before it and what was after it. Abdullah ibn Salam told him to lift his hand. He lifted his hand and there was the ayat of stoning. They said, 'He has spoken the truth, Muhammad. The ayat of stoning is in it.' So the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, gave the order and they were stoned . "
Abdullah ibn Umar added, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to protect her from the stones."
Malik commented, "By leaning he meant throwing himself over her so that the stones fell on him."
Torah is also a Book Of Allah, and stoning was included in it. It was also practiced by the Jews of that time, as is clear by the Hadith mentioned above.
We being Muslims believe in what was revealed to The Prophets before.
If your concern is that stoning specifically is not mentioned in The Book of Allah, then this implies that you only consider The Holy Quran as the only Book of Allah.
**
[/quote]
003.003
YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
PICKTHAL: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
SHAKIR: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
003.004
YUSUFALI: Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
PICKTHAL: Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong).
SHAKIR: Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah they shall have a severe chastisement; and Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution.
003.007
YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
the style of) a story, play, poem, picture, etc. in which the characters and events represent particular qualities or ideas, related to some moral, religious or political meaning.
(from Cambridge International Dictionary of English)
Allegory, fictional literary narrative or artistic expression that conveys a symbolic meaning parallel to but distinct from, and more important than, the literal meaning. The term derives from the Greek allégoria which means “speaking otherwise”. Allegory has also been defined as an extended metaphor. The symbolic meaning is usually expressed through personifications and other symbols. Related forms are the fable and the parable, which are didactic, comparatively short and simple allegories.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** That's precisely what happened.. why else would Bukhari etc spend years trying to find out which one's proper and which one's are concoctions?? It's because fabrications existed and OUTNUMBERED anything remotely authentic.
Really sometimes the naivete on this board is apalling.. READ SOME HISTORY .. PLEASE.. and the critique of non Mulims historians.
Bring me ONE book.. just ONE compilation .. just ONE from around 40 Hijrah (forget the abu huraira's student stuff.. that comes much later) when the Third Caliph distributed authorised copies of the Qur'an to all parts of the Islamic Empire..
According to your claim, the Caliph should have sent a compilation of Hadith too .. right?? because without that your religion is incomplete.
Guess what.. he didn't!! WHY?? cuz THEY DIDN"T EXIST!!!!! CAPICE??**
[/quote]
Interesting, that one can believe in what the Historians say, whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims, but is having a hard time in accepting those who have done all the efforts to compile Ahadith only for the sake of Allah!
Historians do not talk about fairy tales of superhuman memories etc. They rely on cross reference to archaelogical discoveries and written evidence... much better then relying on heresay in my opinion.
And btw, you can quit prancing around and give me a one line answer.. What books complete your religion.. where do you find them and what if a topic is discussed in ALL of them??
Also please quote a verse once.. subsequently just refer to it.. We all know how to look up different translations.
[quote]
Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani:
** If you want to live in a society which is full of corrupt religious fanatics who implement punishments such as stoning to death which is a draconian act to say the least, than go and live your life in your own seperate world.**
[/quote]
Says who? Pakistan was made for Muslims. Muslims who do not agree with Shariah are the ones who have to find another place to live. Your use of terms like corrupt religious fanatics and a draconian act to say the least shows your biased upbringing. I am sorry, but you are one of those who are Muslim in name only.
**
[quote]
PAkistan does not need this EVIL practice in its society. Islam is a compassionate religion...**
[/quote]
Which evil practice? Compassionate yes, but not for sins that have punishments prescribed. **
[quote]
Pakistan does not need to return to the DARK AGES, we have seen what it has done to Afghanistan!!**
[/quote]
So, implementation of shariah is "return to the DARK AGES"? I wish I can see you on the Day of Judgement. As for Afghanistan, I believe an analysis of what happened there is beyond you. Just sit in front of CNN and be spoon-fed. Your mind is not geraed to reasoning and understanding the gravity of things.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
**
DUDE....The fact is, our understanding of Islam is based on other peoples reading.**
[/quote]
Please do not include others. It may be your understanding that is based on other peoples reading. Mine ain't, Alhumdo Lillah. **
[quote]
It is very possible that any given portion of the Koran can be read and interpreted in different ways.**
[/quote]
Yes, so what? you have to see the way the majority interprets it and then apply your own common sense. This is what Ijtehad is all about
**
[quote]
Osama Bin Laden being foremost in this respect.**
[/quote]
What, may I ask, is your source for judging OBL? **
[quote]
we are not "reforming" Islam, we are reinterpretting the teaching of the Koran to fit with the norms of Modern day society. This is a good thing, because this is what god wants. He wants us to Think, to understand for ourselves. That is why he does not give us all the answers.**
[/quote]
Pathetic! I do not wish to say anything more.
**
[quote]
Ultimately,if the Koran is the supreme law of the Universe, it must be able fit in with changes in society.**
[/quote]
The use of the word "if" makes me wonder what you are and why I even bothered to even reply to you.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** That's precisely what happened.. why else would Bukhari etc spend years trying to find out which one's proper and which one's are concoctions?? It's because fabrications existed and OUTNUMBERED anything remotely authentic.**
[/quote]
In the same breadth you are crediting Imam Bukhari (may Allah be pleased with him) for his efforts at sifting through ahadeeth to give us the authentic ones and then disputing hadeeth. Please get your opinion final as your indecision is more appalling than the whole Board put together.
The reason ahadeeth were not compiled and sent at the time was that the people were around who had heard Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) say/do things, which were orally transmitted to all those who were not present. And, if you know your history, there were specific instructions not to write ahadeeth to prevent them from being confused with the Qur'an. Do you know that there were hafiz of ahadeeth at the time. Even Bukhari knew thousands of ahadeeth by heart. It was only when the sahaba and the tabe'een passed away and the fabrication of ahadeeth became a threat, that Imams Bukhari, Muslim, etc. began this massive effort of collecting and compiling saheeh hadeeth.
I know it may be difficult for a munkar-e-hadeeth to accept this, but give it a try. May be I will be successful in imparting some knowledge and sense into you.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited April 26, 2002).]
I never said Bukhari managed to do a good job.. I was merely pointing out the inconsistencies in the logic of YOUR camp.. On one hand you claim Bukhari sifted through 600,000 hadith and drilled it down to around seven thousand.. and in the same breath you claim that hadith were written down from the beginning and everyone knew them and there were no fabrications!
Rubbish.. where do you get these stoopid theories from anyway?? do you think in the year 150 A.H there would be anyone from the Prophet’s companions alive to visit EVERY corner of the Islamic Empire to impart these 'hadith’s.. Once again.. hadith thumpers fail to explain why the fourth caliph did not send compilation of hadith with the qur’an he sent.. simple question.. WHY??
Since you believe in hadith and take that as source of your history, what say you about the fact the the other hadith which in your opinion promulgates the order is weaker!! YET you adhere to that instead of this.. talk about apalling indecision!
Yeah some 250 years after the Qur’an was revealed.. ANY knowledgable person of ANY merit will tell you that this is a large enough time period for oral transmissions to have been forgotten or corrupted beyond recognition. Contrary to your rigid beliefs. people in those days were NOT superhuman and did NOT have superhuman memories just because you would like to think they had it cuz they were oh so pious.
jovial mood you are in today.. I’ve forgotten as much as you know .. spare me your knowledge
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**Historians do not talk about fairy tales of superhuman memories etc. They rely on cross reference to archaelogical discoveries and written evidence... much better then relying on heresay in my opinion.
And btw, you can quit prancing around and give me a one line answer.. What books complete your religion.. where do you find them and what if a topic is discussed in ALL of them??
Also please quote a verse once.. subsequently just refer to it.. We all know how to look up different translations.**
[/quote]
Fairy tales?? The Ahadith compiled by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, sound like fairy tales to you?
I've quoted verses from The Quran, they should answer your question, of what completes my religion.
And try learning Arabic and also spend some time with the Thafsir of The Quran, might help you. You'll get most of your doubts cleared InshaAllah.
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** Fairy tales?? The Ahadith compiled by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, sound like fairy tales to you?**
[/quote]
NO.. they are worse.. I'd let my kids read fairy tales before they read such crap about the Prophet being Don Juan or forcing people to drink camel urine, or his wives sharing menstrual details with narrators.
[quote]
I've quoted verses from The Quran, they should answer your question, of what completes my religion.
[/quote]
No.. u're running again. I need to know your understanding of the verses cuz I know what the verses are saying here. I need to know how you wish to twist them to arrive at your religion. so once again..
Which Books TODAY do you consider part of your religion?
[quote] And try learning Arabic and also spend some time with the Thafsir of The Quran, might help you. You'll get most of your doubts cleared InshaAllah.
[/quote]
Thanks for the advice.. research some old posts of mine... maybe you'll learn a thing or two.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** NO.. they are worse.. I'd let my kids read fairy tales before they read such crap about the Prophet being Don Juan or forcing people to drink camel urine, or his wives sharing menstrual details with narrators.**
[/quote]
Do you know what this means?
Are you aware of the consequences PA?
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**
No.. u're running again. I need to know your understanding of the verses cuz I know what the verses are saying here. I need to know how you wish to twist them to arrive at your religion. so once again..
Which Books TODAY do you consider part of your religion?**
[/quote]
Please tell me your understanding of the above mentioned verses first, so that I can respond accordingly.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**
Thanks for the advice.. research some old posts of mine... maybe you'll learn a thing or two. **
[/quote]
Verses 4:24 & 4:25, explain them as per your understanding.