Reza khan,
Weren't you arguing that we should have Shariah? So which one? The Shariah of those that make hadiths over Quran, or the one that goes the other way around. The one which consider 100 ayats to be abrogated or the one that considers only 5 or how about the one that considers none?
The options are countless!
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** Where does it say whether married or unmarried?**
[/quote]
For free believing men and women, where does it say there is a difference??
All those who live by these Hadith look at what you follow!!!
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/eek.gif
**This here is a classic example of the hadith fabricators actually claiming that the Qura’n as we have today is INCOMPLETE or FORGOTTEN!.. Naoozobillah **
Yet you follow these fabricators and call it Sahih???
Different
I appreciate what you are saying, but unfortunately the ayat you have quoted in order to add weight to your argument in favour of the A'Hadeeth concerning stoning, has been placed well out of context.
'And it is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter, that they should have any option in their decision' 33:36
Let's look at the Synopsis of Context of the ayat and break it down!
The discourse of ayats 36-48 deal with the matter of divorce of Zaynab from Zayd and her subsequent marriage with the Prophet PBUH, as decreed by Allah. The discourse refutes the objections and propganda of the disbelievers against the Prophet'S PBUH marriage with the divorced wife of his adoptedson. It instructs the Believers regarding the position and status of the Prophet PBUH and it consoles the Prophet PBUH not to heed the annoyances of the disbelievers.
I hope the above helps and you will see that the Qur'aan is very clear on the issue concerning adultery and no A'Hadeeth is required to explain the verse 24:02!!
[quote]
Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani:
I DO NOT support stoning to death of a Human Being period.
[/quote]
let me ask u a few questions...who created you? did u come into this world of ur own accord? how gave u a heart? a brain? lungs? who created the man,life and universe??and do u know wen u will die? and do u hav any control over ur death?
be gratefull! to the ONE wch gave u life wen u were dead, the ONE who will give ur death while ur alive,and the ONE who will give u life again wen ur dead!
After reading some of the comments in this thread, I propose a new law 'stoning of the ignorant' and only one post should be enough proof to prove his/her guilt!
[quote]
Originally posted by Seminole:
** I would still say study the teachings of Jesus Christ. There has never lived a greater man. Even outside of the religious context - if we could all emulate his love, tolerance, wisdom, charity, forgiveness and humbleness - it would be a much better world.
**
[/quote]
The whole premise is WRONG. In order to love others, u do not have to emulate or copy others. Love is the call of ur heart, ur true self, and it is not some force to copy/emulate other. Jesus, like so many others, must have been a good man, but in order to love anyone in my life, I dont have to copy anyone. It would be a false love, insetad.
To All
'Abdullah bin 'Abbas reported that 'Umar bin Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and he sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning. I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or if there is pregnancy or a confession. [Muslim, III, No. 4194; Bukhari, VIII, No. 816.]
To ahmedjee: --- What?? Is there seriously more to Pakistan than Karachi??? *Shocked look"*
Mad
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/eek.gif
do you even get what the Hadith is saying??
The hadith implies that the Qur’an we have today is INCOMPLETE because some verses were forgotten
…
STOP RIGHT HERE!!!
Find me the verse that this hadith is talking about .. then we’ll move forward..
How BLIND will everyone get??? you guys love fabrications so much that you are willing to declare the Qur’an null and void???
Ahh, and then they accuse others of changing, minipulating the Quran & its interpretation?!
Stones them all
Ahmadjee dont stone me! hai hai.
Post removed pending further research.
And PA, none of my posts so far have endorsed anything. I have endorsed neither stoning nor the hadith above, and similar I have not endorsed just flogging adulterers.
I have only posted to explain why some say "flog adulters" and other say "stone them."
I will come to a conclusion after conducting further research of scholars' views after my exams.
[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited April 24, 2002).]
I am glad someone is at least making an effort!
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
Mad_S
p.s: Sorry if some of the stones hit ya!
[quote]
Originally posted by reza khan:
** good how about people who dont accept hadith and completely reject all of em. **
[/quote]
How do they pray then? Or, do they?
Different.. if I told you how to pray from the qur’an would you abolish Hadith…
NO
why even go to prayer.. look at the present matter.. this is the essence of the discussion.
Qur’an gives a complete commandment.. a thorough Penal Code for the adulterer and the adulteress.. YET, you have to rush to fabrications and override the Qur’an to the extent of declaring it incomplete!!!
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/eek.gif
What good will it do to point out the method of prayer from the Qur’an when it will fall on deaf ears more used to the titillating hadith literature which enjoys discussing the menstrual cycles of the Prophet’s wives and how he had sex with them
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Different
I appreciate what you are saying, but unfortunately the ayat you have quoted in order to add weight to your argument in favour of the A'Hadeeth concerning stoning, has been placed well out of context.
'And it is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter, that they should have any option in their decision' 33:36
Let's look at the Synopsis of Context of the ayat and break it down!
The discourse of ayats 36-48 deal with the matter of divorce of Zaynab from Zayd and her subsequent marriage with the Prophet PBUH, as decreed by Allah. The discourse refutes the objections and propganda of the disbelievers against the Prophet'S PBUH marriage with the divorced wife of his adoptedson. It instructs the Believers regarding the position and status of the Prophet PBUH and it consoles the Prophet PBUH not to heed the annoyances of the disbelievers.
I hope the above helps and you will see that the Qur'aan is very clear on the issue concerning adultery and no A'Hadeeth is required to explain the verse 24:02!!
**
[/quote]
What you are trying to say is that this ayat was revealed only for that purpose and cannot be applicable anywhere else?
You basically wanted this ayat to be repeated several times so that it can be applicable to other issues?
If you look closely at the issue on which we are arguing, you will find that this statement of yours fits in very well "The discourse refutes the objections and propganda of the disbelievers against the Prophet'S PBUH marriage with the divorced wife of his adoptedson. It instructs the Believers regarding the position and status of the Prophet PBUH and it consoles the Prophet PBUH not to heed the annoyances of the disbelievers."
I hope this helps. Everything that the Prophet SAW said or did was on the instruction and permission of Allah SWT. The stoning of the married adulterer and adulteress did occur at the time of the Prophet SAW, its amazing that, we believe in the Quran which we know through the Prophet SAW but we deny his Hadith and Sunnah! Beats me!
>>The stoning of the married adulterer and adulteress did occur at the time of the Prophet SAW
Actually the argument is that it did NOT happen at the time of the Holy Prophet. Someone made up the Ahadiths later.
Prophet Muhammad (saw) never did anything against the teachings of Quran, so either our understanding of the Quran is wrong or that the particular Hadiths is a fabrication.
Going back to the issue that Hadiths are Sahih but Shhih does not equals Authentic! It only means that it fall under the 'criteria' of the person (Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim) compiling the Hadiths.
He had the right to deem it Sahih and I have every right to consider it a fabrication.
How do you know the Quran?
Don’t you know it through the Prophet SAW?
WE all know that different verses were revealed at different times, chapters were revealed in parts.
Everything that the Prophet SAW is the Messenger of Allah, and the message that he gave is the Message of Allah, be it in The Quran or in the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW.
Except for The Prophet SAW who could have distinguished between what was a revealation of Quran and what was a message that was not to be included in the Quran?
All the events that occurred in the Prophet’s life contain a message for us. Parables so that we can learn and apply without hesitation.
Yet now here we are arguing on issues that have been practiced at the time of the Prophet SAW.
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
**>>The stoning of the married adulterer and adulteress did occur at the time of the Prophet SAW
Actually the argument is that it did NOT happen at the time of the Holy Prophet. Someone made up the Ahadiths later.
Prophet Muhammad (saw) never did anything against the teachings of Quran, so either our understanding of the Quran is wrong or that the particular Hadiths is a fabrication.
Going back to the issue that Hadiths are Sahih but Shhih does not equals Authentic! It only means that it fall under the 'criteria' of the person (Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim) compiling the Hadiths.
He had the right to deem it Sahih and I have every right to consider it a fabrication. **
[/quote]
If you accept that it happened at the time of the Prophet SAW, why is it so difficult for you to accept the Hadith?
No one is stopping you to exercise your rights.
But are you in a position to claim that Sahih is not equal to authentic? A lot of effort is involved in the compilation of Hadith by Bukhari and Muslim (may Allah have mercy) and it is acknowledged by scholars.
The Hadith are not in contradiction to what is mentioned in the Quran, it is an add on. Because it is more likely for un-married's to commit adultery than it is for married's. And therefore the punishment for the married adulterer and adulteress should be more than the punishment of un-marrieds who commit adultery.
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
After reading some of the comments in this thread, I propose a new law 'stoning of the ignorant*' and only one post should be enough proof to prove his/her guilt!*
[/quote]
Who decides who is "ignorant"?