Another thing that worth noting. There is no way to tell whether this woman was raped or was an actual adulteress. How can anyone condone such injustice?
[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
Another thing that worth noting. There is no way to tell whether this woman was raped or was an actual adulteress. How can anyone condone such injustice?
[/quote]
Thank You!!! The voice of reason. I am assuming that a woman wouldn't be stoned to death or punished in any way for being raped. Also if she really were having an affair with her brother in law, what about him? If she gets stoned to death, shouldn't he?
Everyone talks like this stoning to death thing is something that has to be done. I am not trying to derate any ones religion, but let's get real about the issue, if you live in the US,Canada,Australia, England just to name a few, you will hardly be able to stone someone to death because they cheated on their spouse. You would be put in prison, or perhaps even get the death penality.
Also something else about this whole thing, doesn't make any sense to me. Someone else wrote on another thread, that there had to be 4 witnessess. I don't understand how there would be one, much less 4. It seems that any evidence they would give, would be more guess work than anything else, as I am assuming most people have sex in private.
Not trying to be nasty, but I don't care if every religious book on the face of the Earth, said it was ok to stone someone to death for any crime, there is no way, I could do this to anyone. That must be one of the most horrible ways to die possible.
I don't know the exact verse of the bible it comes from, and I do relize that most people here are Muslim, but I like what this says.
Some people were going to stone a woman to death for adultry, when Jesus aproached, he stoped them saying "he who is without sin, may cast the first stone" So of course, not the first stone was thrown.
I am not saying adultry is right, or sex outside of marriage, but at the same time, if you get death for this, what happens to someone that has done a truly serious crime, such as murder,rape,kidnapping?
I am not going to even try to change anyone's mind about this, but I will say that the God that I have been taught about, is much kinder than this.
Brenda
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst!!!
[This message has been edited by bcsm57 (edited April 23, 2002).]
Like I have stated many a time. The Qur'aan is the primary source and the injuction is already there and very clear:
024.002 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
No A'Hadeeth can change or interperate the above ayat to stoning.
So the punishment for both the man and woman is equal!!
The reason why i asked u whether u think islam should be reformed is coz nowadays many people are think that islamic rulings cannnot be with the modern society, so many modern muslims thnk that isalm can be reformed, which i dont think would be allowed. Islam cant be reformed. so i am not confused. On the other hand if this women was raped then the ruling should be passed justly, the laws of pakistan should be applied in any of the case and she should not be stoned as the laws are not based on Shariat.
[This message has been edited by reza khan (edited April 21, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by reza khan:
**The reason why i asked u whether u think islam should be reformed is coz nowadays many people are think that islamic rulings cannnot be with the modern society, so many modern muslims thnk that isalm can be reformed, which i dont think would be allowed. Islam cant be reformed. so i am not confused. On the other hand if this women was raped then the ruling should be passed justly, the laws of pakistan should be applied in any of the case and she should not be stoned as the laws are not based on Shariat.
[This message has been edited by reza khan (edited April 21, 2002).]**
[/quote]
DUDE....Im not saying change Islam. How in the world can we "change" Islam. The fact is, our understanding of Islam is based on other peoples reading. It is very possible that any given portion of the Koran can be read and interpreted in different ways. This is why we have people in the world who find only love in the Koran, while others read the same passages and find justification in murdering people. Osama Bin Laden being foremost in this respect. Reform is perhaps not the appropriate word to use, because reform implies that we are changing something from being imperfect to being somthing closer to "perfect". But thats not what we are doing, we are not "reforming" Islam, we are reinterpretting the teaching of the Koran to fit with the norms of Modern day society. This is a good thing, because this is what god wants. He wants us to Think, to understand for ourselves. That is why he does not give us all the answers. Ultimately,if the Koran is the supreme law of the Universe, it must be able fit in with changes in society.
[quote]
Originally posted by bcsm57:
** Thank You!!! The voice of reason. I am assuming that a woman wouldn't be stoned to death or punished in any way for being raped. Also if she really were having an affair with her brother in law, what about him? If she gets stoned to death, shouldn't he?
Everyone talks like this stoning to death thing is something that has to be done. I am not trying to derate any ones religion, but let's get real about the issue, if you live in the US,Canada,Australia, England just to name a few, you will hardly be able to stone someone to death because they cheated on their spouse. You would be put in prison, or perhaps even get the death penality.
Also something else about this whole thing, doesn't make any sense to me. Someone else wrote on another thread, that there had to be 4 witnessess. I don't understand how there would be one, much less 4. It seems that any evidence they would give, would be more guess work than anything else, as I am assuming most people have sex in private.
Not trying to be nasty, but I don't care if every religious book on the face of the Earth, said it was ok to stone someone to death for any crime, there is no way, I could do this to anyone. That must be one of the most horrible ways to die possible.
I don't know the exact verse of the bible it comes from, and I do relize that most people here are Muslim, but I like what this says.
Some people were going to stone a woman to death for adultry, when Jesus aproached, he stoped them saying "he who is without sin, my cast the first stone" So of course, not the first stone was thrown.
I am not saying adultry is right, or sex outside of marriage, but at the same time, if you get death for this, what happens to someone that has done a truly serious crime, such as murder,rape,kidnapping?
I am not going to even try to change anyone's mind about this, but I will say that the God that I have been taught about, is much kinder than this.
Brenda
**
[/quote]
Totally agreed. Particularly the point of the four witnesses. First, if there were four witnesses, wouldn't they be guilty of fornication? I mean why in the world would they be watching, unless its some sorta mile high club or something... lol. I doubt there were four witnesses to this woman "crime" anyway. Problem with muslims today, as i see it, is that they take the Koran far to literally. I believe the Koran even warns against taking things literally. This stoning thing is as far from religious as one can get. In reality, it is just a gross manifestation of the Male ego in a feudal society. Ours is a society obsesed with "honor."
Honor for men in our society lies in how well he can control his woman... They dress up this Caveman honor in a religious over coat and present it to the world thinking no one will recognize it as the truly barbaric custom that it is.
[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
** Totally agreed. Particularly the point of the four witnesses. First, if there were four witnesses, wouldn't they be guilty of fornication? I mean why in the world would they be watching, unless its some sorta mile high club or something... lol. I doubt there were four witnesses to this woman "crime" anyway. Problem with muslims today, as i see it, is that they take the Koran far to literally. I believe the Koran even warns against taking things literally. This stoning thing is as far from religious as one can get. In reality, it is just a gross manifestation of the Male ego in a feudal society. Ours is a society obsesed with "honor."
Honor for men in our society lies in how well he can control his woman... They dress up this Caveman honor in a religious over coat and present it to the world thinking no one will recognize it as the truly barbaric custom that it is. **
[/quote]
I am afraid what you are saying about caveman honor is true, at least to some degree, in all cultures. The good news, is it is changing, slowly but surely.
There are also people in all religions, that take religious writings too literally. I think God meant us to use a little commone sense. Perhaps thats why he gave us a working brain.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst!!!
SO Adnan Ahmed, tell me what is the right punishment for comitting illegal sex in Islam. or there isnt any? Also tell me if there is then why shouldnt we follow Allahs command?
[This message has been edited by reza khan (edited April 22, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by reza khan:
**SO Adnan Ahmed, tell me what is the right punishment for comitting illegal sex in Islam. or there isnt any? Also tell me if there is then why shouldnt we follow Allahs command?
[This message has been edited by reza khan (edited April 22, 2002).]**
[/quote]
Bro, first of, if we punish these people, then both should be punished. Its shouldn't be one sided the way this whole case has turned out to be. Second, the case should be based on factual evidence. Meaning, there has to be no doubt that the woman was cheating. There should be no ifs ands or buts. We cant just put someone to death based on conjecture. The punishment itself should not be death. If we do insist on punishing people for such sins, then it should be humane. Prison sentances are more befitting. I know some of the more Islamist people think such a "light" punishment for such a horendouse crime is almost sinful. But, they should remember that there are other ways to reform society and punish the sinners besides putting them to death.
Here is my neo-Christian point of view..
There are many passages in the Old Testament which are obviously not to be taken literally. God gave us a brain to decifer allegories from literal truth. There are so many verses in Leviticus alone that talk about people being put to death for things that are not relevant to today's society. I imagine the same could be said for the Quran.
I say, how dare a government, religous organization or anyone other group dictate who sleeps with who. It is a moral decision between that person and their God. It is a victimless crime that is not the business of anyone other than those who are involved.
And stoning to death is as gross of a sin I can imagine. As Jesus said "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Like I have stated many a time. The Qur'aan is the primary source and the injuction is already there and very clear:
024.002 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
No A'Hadeeth can change or interperate the above ayat to stoning.
So the punishment for both the man and woman is equal!!
**
[/quote]
002.043
YUSUFALI: And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).
The Quran states that we should be steadfast in prayer, but where do you get the method on how you should pray?
Isn't it from the Hadith? Isn't it from the Sunnah?
Likewise for the stoning of the adulterer who is married, there are events that occurred at the time of Prophet SAW that support stoning to death.
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** 002.043
YUSUFALI: And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).
The Quran states that we should be steadfast in prayer, but where do you get the method on how you should pray?
Isn't it from the Hadith? Isn't it from the Sunnah?
Likewise for the stoning of the adulterer who is married, there are events that occurred at the time of Prophet SAW that support stoning to death.**
[/quote]
The authenticity of the Hadith regarding the stoning of adulterers is such that it is generally not doubted.
However, it is debatable as to whether the Hadith abrogates the verse in the Quran, or whether the Quran abrogates the Hadith.
The answer depend on what fiqh you follow. Unfortunately, I have misplaced my book on Islamic jurisprudence, but in there it was written that at least one fiqh maintains that it is possible for a Hadith to abrogate the Quran (hence adulterers should be stoned to death); whereas other fiqhs strenuously maintain that a Quranic verse cannot be abrogated by anything other than another Quranic verse (hence the punishment from adulterer should be 100 lashes, this punishment replacing execution).
Different
Please don't preach to me on how we learnt salaat.
I am not a Submitter and do accept authentic A'Hadeeth. However, when the A'Hadeeth clearly conradicts the Qur'aan, then the Qur'aan will always be my guide and not the A'Hadeeth.
What amazes me is that the Qur'aan has made it abundantly clear in simple language, the punishment is 100 lashes, but some people still seem to ignore this ruling and would rather debate the A'Hadeeth as though A'Hadeeth is the primary source and the Qur'aan is the secondary source.
Sorry to disappoint some of the Guppies, but the Qur'aan is very clear on this issue.
Once again:
024.002 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Wake up!!!!
[quote]
Originally posted by Seminole:
**Here is my neo-Christian point of view..
There are many passages in the Old Testament which are obviously not to be taken literally. God gave us a brain to decifer allegories from literal truth. There are so many verses in Leviticus alone that talk about people being put to death for things that are not relevant to today's society. I imagine the same could be said for the Quran.
I say, how dare a government, religous organization or anyone other group dictate who sleeps with who. It is a moral decision between that person and their God. It is a victimless crime that is not the business of anyone other than those who are involved.
And stoning to death is as gross of a sin I can imagine. As Jesus said "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."
**
[/quote]
We are talking here about Quran not some man made rules in the bible. The Quran is not man written so dont tell us not to take it. The rules of the Quran are there to follow. Why the hell God revealed and commanded us to implement them. The rules are there from God to implemented as Allah already told us.
[This message has been edited by reza khan (edited April 23, 2002).]
Different.. produce the whole hadith.. don’t hide the fact that the different hadith on the topic also mention the Second Caliph talking about “ayat-e-Rajim” being missing from the Qur’an
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/eek.gif
fabricators and their fabrications
[quote]
Originally posted by reza khan:
** We are talking here about Quran not some man made rules in the bible. The Quran is not man written so dont tell us not to take it. The rules of the Quran are there to follow. Why the hell God revealed and commanded us to implement them. The rules are there from God to implemented as Allah already told us.
**
[/quote]
Excuse me for butting in, I was only trying to bring in another perspective. There are Christian fundamentalists as well that believe fornicators should be burned. I choose to follow Christ's teachings of love, tolerance, forgiveness, charity and non-judgement.
True, very true.
Assalamo Alaikum, so we all agree that the punishment for adultery prescribed by Quran is lashes. Does Quran also specify how many lashes you're to get for adultery? (I couldn't find it?) Or does it depend on the Islamic judge guy or whoever does the trials and stuff for adultery?
[quote]
Originally posted by Seminole:
**Here is my neo-Christian point of view..
There are many passages in the Old Testament which are obviously not to be taken literally. God gave us a brain to decifer allegories from literal truth. There are so many verses in Leviticus alone that talk about people being put to death for things that are not relevant to today's society. I imagine the same could be said for the Quran.
I say, how dare a government, religous organization or anyone other group dictate who sleeps with who. It is a moral decision between that person and their God. It is a victimless crime that is not the business of anyone other than those who are involved.
And stoning to death is as gross of a sin I can imagine. As Jesus said "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."
**
[/quote]
Agreed, but try convincing thousands of Mad mullahs the efficacy of your stand... Pakistan in some ways is hostage to the whims of powerful people such as the mullahs.
I looked at
http://www.religioustolerance.org/exe_bibl.htm
it looks like that Bible is more on killing rampage than any other book.
And it is amzaing that western media r picking on one and two verses of Quran !!