I have not read all the debate here but I feel the problem is not about charity or affordability but the mindset behind the ridiculously qouted prices. Why do you think these designers are asking that much money....the matrial isn't expensive, labor in pakistan is dirt cheap and their brand is not an international one. The reason they quote high prices is because they know that rich pakistanis will pay watever amount because they think that it is an insult to bargain or refuse to buy something even if you have money. Next time you buy lakhoon ka jorra plz ask once to the designer what he pays to his karigers.
Our money spend on these expensive dresses is contributing in the exploitation of poor in pakistan. The gap between rich and poor is increasing day by day in pakistan...it is sure to bring more hostility and anger towards the system and more young minds will be easily manipulated to do whatever for this rat race of money. I am sorry to be political here but we are educated ppl and can't afford to close our eyes to see the big picture and our contribution in it.
Re: Split debate-Spending thousands on a wedding dress
i agree with u I think u r totally right...
Re: Split debate-Spending thousands on a wedding dress
bebo.. completely agree
Re: Split debate-Spending thousands on a wedding dress
Bebo and all those that agree with her you wanna know why people r poor in Pakistan, it's no because designers sell dresses for $4k it is because people there r uneducated, when they grow up they have no realvalue to provida to society they stay poor, their kids don't go to school and the cycle continues. America on the other hand also has many many uneducated people but many here value education and the country believes strongly in capitalism unlike many people in Pakistan. Capitalism leads to better standards of living. How? Because people with talents, education hard work, motivation go out and try to sell their products and services so they can make money, provide something of value to society and increase a country standards of living. This is the same thing a designer in Pakistan does, they should lower their prices and decrease their standard if living just so someone that can't afford the dress now can? Does apple lower the price of their MacBook so everyone can buy them? The designer that made michelle obamas dress, isabel Toledo, is not an international designer in fact not even popular nationally yet the dress that michelle wore was around $1500.
Do you think a bag by louis vuitton actually costs them $1k to make? I'm sure the fixed costs of that bag are less than $100. Designers have many costs that you may not see most of which are marketing. Yes indeed any good designer would make a lot of money even after the costs but isn't that something they deserve to be providing a great service not only to us but finally putting Pakistan in the international fashion industry?
The shrinking middle class and poverty in pakistan is not only because lack of eduaction. There are many educated and unemployed young people and eduated people living pay check to pay check. Everyone values education but here in USA the system let the poor to send their kids to school. It is against the law here to pay less than minimum wage..wats the standard in Pakistan?
Apple prices are what majority can afford here ...Tell me majority in pakistan can afford $4K joras? And excuse me but how maheen khan or banto kazmi are increasing anyones standerd of living other than themselves?? And I would say same about LV bags or any of the designers but atleast they are internationaly known designers. Other than Pakistani ppl no one even know about these Pakistani designers.
I am not stopping anyone from buying anything but this is just the way I see things.
Re: Split debate-Spending thousands on a wedding dress
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The shrinking middle class and poverty in pakistan is not only because lack of eduaction. There are many educated and unemployed young people and eduated people living pay check to pay check. Everyone values education but here in USA the system let the poor to send their kids to school. It is against the law here to pay less than minimum wage..wats the standard in Pakistan? Apple prices are what majority can afford here ...Tell me majority in pakistan can afford $4K joras? And excuse me but how maheen khan or banto kazmi are increasing anyones standerd of living other than themselves?? And I would say same about LV bags or any of the designers but atleast they are internationaly known designers. Other than Pakistani ppl no one even know about these Pakistani designers. I.
I agree with you totally!
The shrinking middle class and poverty in pakistan is not only because lack of eduaction. There are many educated and unemployed young people and eduated people living pay check to pay check. Everyone values education but here in USA the system let the poor to send their kids to school. It is against the law here to pay less than minimum wage..wats the standard in Pakistan? Apple prices are what majority can afford here ...Tell me majority in pakistan can afford $4K joras? And excuse me but how maheen khan or banto kazmi are increasing anyones standerd of living other than themselves?? And I would say same about LV bags or any of the designers but atleast they are internationaly known designers. Other than Pakistani ppl no one even know about these Pakistani designers. I am not stopping anyone from buying anything but as for me I dont even buy a cup of coffee if it is not fair trade.
Many poor people in the US don't go to school but many those, but of those that do they usually drop out or work for minimum wage jobs. In some rare cases poor people do finally become well off.
You are greatly mistaken if you think the majority of Americans can afford a MacBook. Most can't even afford a new computer at this time even if that's $500. Not everyone in America wears a vera Wang bridal gown either because much more than the majority can't afford it. The average salary in america is around $27k per annum and I'm sure they would think $1500 on a MacBook is a waste of money.
Standards of living increase when a country's GDP increases which it does so when people make income like the designers. They make money then they spend the money, money that goes into purchasing food at restaurants, grocery stores, cinemas, give to charity, etc. By spending all this money, jobs are created which increases the income of those with the jobs who's living standards increase and the cycle continues that's how anyone that is making money contributes to increased living standards of a country.
If you believe that only Pakistani people know of Pakistani designers ( oh god) you are again GREATLY mistaken. I'm nor even gonna justify this but instead ask do you really think the fashion industry doesn't recognize the names HSY, Karma, Nilofer Shahid, Faiza Samee? These few specifically are widely popular thru out the world mainly in India and the UAE and not only by pakistani living there.
Sumorani I am not mistaken and yes majority of middle class here can afford a macbook. Go to any college campus and u'll see what I am taking about. But I don't like giving examples from USA to make a point about Pakistan. There is no comparison. Anyway back to Pakistan and about your economic insight I would say these designer can start contributing to the GDP by giving decent wages to their karigers. But they don't and money remain concentrated in hands of few and thus the economic situation in Pakistan. And yes most desi ppl are aware of these designers but by international I mean that ,I have never seen these designer in Milan or Newyork Fashion week.
This kind of expensive is always better mentality is what ruined Pakistani education system with private schools and what not.
BUT hay this is how I think and you don't have to feel like this or agree with me.
Sumorani I am not mistaken and yes majority of middle class here can afford a macbook. Go to any college campus and u'll see what I am taking about. But I don't like giving examples from USA to make a point about Pakistan. There is no comparison. Anyway back to Pakistan and about your economic insight I would say these designer can start contributing to the GDP by giving decent wages to their karigers. But they don't and money remain concentrated in hands of few and thus the economic situation in Pakistan. And yes most desi ppl are aware of these designers but by international I mean that ,I have never seen these designer in Milan or Newyork Fashion week. This kind of expensive is always better mentality is what ruined Pakistani education system with private schools and what not. BUT hay this is how I think and you don't have to feel like this or agree with me.
Only 30% of Americans have a college degree, even out of those that did go to college not everyone owns a laptop or computer therefore no, the majority of them don't own a MacBook but instead they might own a computer and I brought up MacBooks cuz they are some of the pricier laptops. I'm not comparing the education system of both countries but instead proving a point of how capitalism increases standards of living. You are right that those designers can give a higher wage to karigars but it's not like they will just do it for the he'll of it. The easiest way to increase the wages would be if karigars have a strike collectively but they can't do that either because they need to feed their families, so atleast some money us better than nothing. Ultimately it comes down to the govts inability to step in and guide employment in the country. And I did say that Pakistan is just coming to the fashion scene so ofcourse it will take time to go to ny fashion week but hsy does do fashion week in Dubai and a few pakistan designers are known internationally. Also to high prices also enable them to have fashion shows because they also cost money, they won't gain international recognition by selling their outfits for $500, that's definitely not how u end up in Paris' fashion week cuz u will have no money to get there.
Re: Split debate-Spending thousands on a wedding dress
FYI bebo, child labor also exists all over the world besides poverty in Pakistan.. big companies hire people in India in call centers so should we stop buying their services (AOL, ATT, many more) because they are under paying those Indians? Should we stop buying clothes from A&F and all these departmental stores because alot of their clothes are made in China, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh- we all know how much those poor laborers must be getting paid for shirts that cost us so much here? Why are just Pakistani designers under scrutiny here for underpaying their kaamwalas and being responsible for the poverty? It exists all over the world and we do it ALL the time even if we are not at some designer's store buying an expensive outfit. Shirts made in Pakistan, jeans made in Pakistan, sweaters made in Pakistan, bedsheets made in Pakistan, etc etc.
Oh and about the kaamwalas being underpaid- regardless of who they work for, have their OWN SET rates. I know this because my aunt is a designer and she knows Maheen, Nilofer and others, and she told us that designers don't just pay their workers WHATEVER they feel like but rather what the kaamwalas themselves demand. Same goes for their tailors and assistants too. As the wedding season goes up, those laborers too hike up their prices.
Re: Split debate-Spending thousands on a wedding dress
Im going through a bit of this ordeal myself right now and came to a conclusion tonight. I finalized my wedding jorda and am NOT going to change my mind again.
Like some of the other girls here said, I cant buy an outfit for over $1k and not wear it again so Im making sure the kaam and design are definitely wearable. The shirt is staying long and will be a coat style so I can make a shalwar later on to match it...its really cute and Ill post pictures when I get it. The kaam is light weight but full because I dont like a lot of weighty kaam. Plus, I know myself...I will get overwhelmed and cranky if Im not comfortable.
You know what everybody? I think its your wedding day and as much as I love helping people out...I only get to have this day once. I am allowed to be a little selfish on this day so if I can afford a pricey wedding dress...Ill do it. If I want to wear a risque dress on my bridal shower...I will. If my vision costs me a few hundred dollars more and I can easily afford it without shirking other responsibilities, then I deserve to do it.
Thats my story and Im sticking to it. :)
well, regardless, the middle and lower classes try and imitate the ridiculous trends set by the elite, which is sad in a culture where people save up their entire lives for weddings rather than an education. They end up blowing their life savings on these sort of events because of whats become popular.
I agree that just because you buy an expensive dress doesnt mean you havent donated to the poor, but generally, the same people who spend thousands of dollars on a wedding dress will spend thousands of dollars on decorations, buying huge diamond rings and renting out the most expensive hotels in Pakistan. Of course its your special day and you can do whatever you want and spend whatever amount of money you wish, but to say that this isnt snobby? It is! We talk about the size of our diamonds, the name brand of our clothes, and the top photographers and makeup artists that helped with the wedding...if that isnt snobby, I dont know what is! Its considered to be in poor taste where I'm from, regardless of how much money you have, but I think its not considered rude in Pakistan because if you got it, flaunt it!
Also you cant compare Pakistan to America...I've grown up here my whole life and my state would pay full tuition to go to an in-state college as long as you had good grades. You can get a decent education and succeed in life here regardless of the situation of your parents (Obama, anyone?)...sadly, I dont think its quite the same in Pakistan.
My point isnt that you shouldnt spend a lot of money or enjoy your big day...but I think we should accept that its an aspect of elitism and reputation, both of which play a huge role in our culture.
Re: Split debate-Spending thousands on a wedding dress
Like others have said, 'expensive' is all relative. Most girls dream about their wedding day since they were little. It is a special day and ideally a once in a lifetime event. if one has the means to spend whatever amount they want, without getting into financial difficulty and has a good time, the one should not judge them and let them spend their money as they see fit. It is not my money or your money, so who are we to tell others how to spend their money?!
There are so many expectations inherent in our culture. For example, Wearing gold on your wedding day, inviting certain people. Our generation may not succumb to these pressures but our parents and the elders in our family still hold these views. Yes people talk, but to minimise it some people do go for the whole 'shebang' in order for these people not to talk. It will still take a generation or so for these expectations to filter out.
Some people find it easier to instill their trust in known designers or do not have the means to spend months having a customised, cheaper outfit made. The current economic situation in Pakistan is not helping matters, and things are much more expensive compared to what they were a few years ago. Yes it is not right and it is heartbreaking to see the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, but that is where those who give charity can help such people out.
Even in English weddings, bridal gowns cost around £600+ and these are comparatively way much simplier than desi bridal lenghas. None of the fancy embellishment, gota and whatnot.You don't see them wearing their gowns again do you?!
Those who do spend alot, again it is their business. There is no need to give the 'holier than thou' attitude and look towards these people with disdain. Charity is one of the pillars of Islam. One should not feel compelled to give charity as such, yes it is a fundamental part of our religion but one should have the niyaat to give and to give in such a manner that no one knows about. For example, is there not a hadith which goes along the lines of give so your right hand does not know what your left hand is doing and vice versa.
We are accountable for our own actions, so we should look to better ourselves rather than point the fingers at others. Who knows, that same person who spent a large amount of money on a wedding, has a better niyaat and is a better person!
I agree with both the views here...If Allah mian has blessed you with alot then go ahead and spend the way you like because after all this is the only day in a girl's life where she gets to feel like a princess and It's no harm looking the part...I know I felt liked it but my dress didn't cost me a fortune and so, as someone said, it's all relative. I am not a big fan of heavily worked pieces. To me, the simpler the prettier..I love the Fahad Hussain outfit cuz it balances the shirt with a plain sharara...
As for the other side of the story, that why splash so much...then I kinda agree to that as well. Many of us, dont really consider the islamic perspective when it comes to ALOT of things in life. I know I dont sometimes and I feel guilty over it. As a Hadith states that you have to give Hisaab for every thing that you own and wear. So the less questioning from Allah mian the better. On this note, Mehndi, jahez, extravagant decor and so many other things can come into question, then why just worry about the dress.
As I said from the begining it is how I see and like to do things. I may not be able to do big things to make a difference but I like to do whatever I can.
You guys do whatever you want I am not stopping but in this opinion board I was merely sharing my opinion. It feels like that you guys are guilty concious to justify one wrong with another.
BTW Shay call center do not expliot people. They are providing decent jobs to young ppl who otherwise might be job less. Globalization and out sourcing is actually good for contries like India. And then these services do not charge us thousands of dollars for a month services do they?
The point was designers are smart who are makig fool of many ppl.
Funny I was talking to my dad the other day about the cost of my wedding outfit & this is what he had to say" Beta aap dekh lo, laakhon ka bhi jora bun sakta hai aur 45000 ka bhi. Mai to yeh prefer karonga kay aap ko agar laakhon he kharch karnay hain to apnay ilawa do aur bridal outfits bana kay kisi ghareeb larki ko dilwa do." (basically dividing the whole 1- 1.5 lakh amount)
I didn't know what to make out of it. As far as charity is concerned I m not gonna mention what or how my family gives away to the needy coz as someone mentioned about the left hand not knowing what right hand is giving hadith. But it does makes me wonder. I m gonna wear it once. Maybe make some small changes & wear it couple of more times. Its not a piece of jewelery that will be there for ever & ever. What do I do? Helping two needy girls is I guess a good idea but then for what I want for a bridal outfit I have been already quoted 1 lakh. And of course its more like I want what I want.
For ladies who are against spending thousands & thousands well if you had a choice like this what would you do? & pls be honest :)
As Psquared said its our only day. We can be a bit selfish. As long as we don't put any one in trouble & know our priorities I think its completely okay to spend whatever you can. About the whole charity part so dude we do kazillion things everyday why is it that everytime weddings take place some people start talking about what's being spent & where.
Re: Split debate-Spending thousands on a wedding dress
Bebo, Globalization and outsourcing is a totally different debate, since globalization may hurt many industries in a country at the same benefit different industries in the same country. But yeh I agree, for India globalization is a benefit. I also agree that call centers don't exploit people because those people in call centers in fact get paid much more than others in the same country with the same level of skills who arent in call centers and at the same time, their employers have a lower labor expense as they would have had hiring people in the US or any industrialized country.
The point we are trying to make however is that designers aren't making fools of anyone. They sell their products and services for a given price, just like the rest of the people in this world. It is upto you to take it or leave it. Some people can afford it, others can't that doesnt mean that designers are exploiting anyone. It also doesn't mean that they should lower their prices so other people can afford their dresses. People that go to these people are usually those that can afford it, and because that is their style. I bought my outfit from Karma because I liked the design of the outfit. At the same time, I went to a lot of boutiques who's designs I didnt like. I even went to people that design from home that said that they can make an exact replica of the Karma design (which I didn't trust). What I'm trying to say is that I paid what I did for that wedding dress to Karma, because I loved that outfit, because I didn't think anyone could make an exact replica of it, and because designers should get paid for their creativity otherwise what's the point of having designers if you will just copy their designs and not give them the credit for it.
At the same time I agree, if I didnt have the money, and I saw someone that could do the same exact thing at half the price, I would have gone to them (though I wouldnt feel good about it because I feel creativity needs to be acknowledged and not stolen). People go to designers for a variety of reasons, because they have talent, because they have exceptional quality, they have unique designs, and some definitely go because they wanna tell others that 'I'm wearing HSY." But designers arent making fools of anyone.