Split Afghanistan

[tmx305]

Re: Split Afghanistan

Ghestho, Since when did we start taking orders from Bhndians? Why dont you guys handle Kashmir first.

[system]

Re: Split Afghanistan

@DASBZ_05

First of all I am aware of the enmity between tajiks and pashtuns, however ask a tajik if he/she wouldn’t want pakistan to break, and I bet you the answer will be yes. Second of the areas non-pashtun of pakistan were part of his empire, Ahmad Shah Baba was chosen by a tribal commitee of Pashtun(afghan) tribes, as well as some Qizalbash he had in his army. But the jirga were pashtuns and chose Ahmad Shah Baba as the King of the Afghans, hence the name of Afghanistan, it literally mean land of the pashtuns. Sassanid was an empire, and many consider it the only empire after Shtar Yima that managed to have the Iranic people united in one area. So, that pretty much cuts sassanids out, The Mughal did not ocntrol pashtun territory, they were unable to control, adn second of all they came into power with the help of Pashtuns. If Tajikistan lost soem land, or had signed a treaty with the British, then there would have been a problem. They would claimed the land (whatever they are claiming), so thats a terrible assumption right there. Ahmad Shah Baba wasn’t born in punjab, and even if he was it doesn’t change the fact he was afghan, and a patriot pashtun, as evident from his poetry and life.

The only problem Uzbeks have with Pakistan is that it supported the Pashtuns in the war as opposed to them… And thats the bottom line right there. No matter what we do, we are damned by the Afghans. We try to defend ourselves against them, and we are damned, we help them and we are damned… Why dont you people make up your god damn minds already…
Why cant Afghans just leave Pakistan in Peace!!!

[system]

Re: Split Afghanistan

@Pakistan4ever

1. The Pashtun founder of Afghanistan, Ahmed Shah Abdali, was born in Multan, Punjab of PAKISTAN !

2. The word Afghan in the past might have meant Pashtun, but that meaning evolved to another one. Today, an Afghan is defined as only a citizen of present-day Afghanistan regardless of ethnicity. There are countless other examples on how a word’s meaning evolves to a different one over time.

3. Ahmed Shah Abdali had previously served under the Turkic ruler of Iran, Nadir Shah. Upon Nadir Shah’s death, Abdali took the opportunity to create his Afghanistan in 1747 AD from the renmants of Nadir Shah’s empire. According to Encyclopaedia Britannica: “Ahmad Shah began by capturing Ghazni from the Ghilzai Pashtuns, and then wresting Kabul from the local ruler. In 1749 the Mughal ruler ceded sovereignty over Sindh Province and the areas west of the Indus River to Ahmad Shah in order to save his capital from Afghan attack. Ahmad Shah then set out westward to take possession of Herat, which was ruled by Nadir Shah’s grandson, Shah Rukh. Herat fell to Ahmad after almost a year of siege and bloody conflict, as did Mashhad (in present-day Iran). Ahmad next sent an army to subdue the areas north of the Hindu Kush. In short order, the powerful army brought under its control the Turkmen, Uzbek, Tajik, and Hazara tribes”. The fact is Abdali conquered the Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks, Turkmens, Baluchis, Punjabis, etc. This was a forceful occupation of various lands/peoples subdued to the Abdali monarchy.

4. Prior to 1747 AD, the region of Afghanistan was ruled by Persian Achaemenians and Sassanians, Greeks, Scythians, Hepthalites, Arabs, Turks, and many others. Mauryas and Mughals ruled a large portion of Afghanistan (almost all of Pashtun areas). The extent of their rule and local rebellions can be argued, but the plain fact remains they were under their rule. Here are some maps that proves my point: http://www.homepagez.com/pakhistory

5. The fact is boundaries between Iran and Afghanistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan, Afghanistan and Tajikistan/Uzbekistan/Turkmenistan, etc were created by the British and Russians. The ethnicity-based countries like Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, & Turkmenistan have much more stronger claims to Tajik, Turkmen, & Uzbek lands of Afghanistan because Afghanistan is a multi-ethnic country like Pakistan and has no right to claim only Pashtun lands of Pakistan. How about Pakistan claiming Pashtun lands of Afghanistan instead since Pashtuns are being oppressed in Afghanistan, Pashtuns in Pakistan are comparatively much more prosperous, and Afghans are desperate to flee to Pakistan! No Pakistani Pashtun wants to be part of the ****-hole called Afghanistan.. what a joke!

Nice post.. Although, it seems more and more Pashtuns are beginging to prefer a roll in Afghani dung as opposed to being “oppressed” in Pakistan.

[system]

Re: Split Afghanistan

@gesto

Give NWFP to Afghanistan .The strong anti-pak sentiment in Afghanistan demands that.It is better for Pakistan to reduce its activities in Afghanistan ,atleast for the time being,to wait and watch the things.Any political unrest or instability in Afghanistan will bleed Pakistan.

 I.S.I should try to unite the warring war lords rather creating ridges between them.Remember,any coverted/subverive actions inside Afghanistan by Pakistan/I.S.I will be watched by the western world.

Give them NWFP and they will also want Balochistan!
Anyways, why would Pakistan interfere in Afghanistan if the Afghan didnt insist on causing trouble in our country… Indians are enough, but to have Afghans on the other side squeezing us in is quite another.

[system]

Re: Split Afghanistan

@DASBZ_05

First of all I am aware of the enmity between tajiks and pashtuns, however ask a tajik if he/she wouldn’t want pakistan to break, and I bet you the answer will be yes. Second of the areas non-pashtun of pakistan were part of his empire, Ahmad Shah Baba was chosen by a tribal commitee of Pashtun(afghan) tribes, as well as some Qizalbash he had in his army. But the jirga were pashtuns and chose Ahmad Shah Baba as the King of the Afghans, hence the name of Afghanistan, it literally mean land of the pashtuns. Sassanid was an empire, and many consider it the only empire after Shtar Yima that managed to have the Iranic people united in one area. So, that pretty much cuts sassanids out, The Mughal did not ocntrol pashtun territory, they were unable to control, adn second of all they came into power with the help of Pashtuns. If Tajikistan lost soem land, or had signed a treaty with the British, then there would have been a problem. They would claimed the land (whatever they are claiming), so thats a terrible assumption right there. Ahmad Shah Baba wasn’t born in punjab, and even if he was it doesn’t change the fact he was afghan, and a patriot pashtun, as evident from his poetry and life.

Didnt Babar and member of his family rule out of Kabul?
And, doesnt the fact that all these empire overlapped across Indian and Afghanistan and Iran show that you have a lot of history common to Pakistan and India.. I mean, you probably have more in common with us then you do the Uzbeks.

[DASBZ_05]

Re: Split Afghanistan

Uzbeks have nothign to do with us at all, they are turkic people. The reason is that our area ends at indus river, so we have been accustomed to the culture their, it doesn't make us similar. With Tajiks, we are grouped as the same people, as well as same language group. Does it mean that I am an all out fanboy and ready to write wha they did off? No, but I am not going to buy the statement you said, our history is the history of Afghanistan, this is a fact, that noone has ever disputed.

[system]

Re: Split Afghanistan

Dude, How the hell did your history end at the Indus? The Mughals who also ruled in Afghanistan also ruled India well past the Indus.. The history of the region overlaps..
Besides, the point that someone made earlier still stands, why shouldnt the entire Pashtun area of Afghanistan join Pakistan, rather then the Paskistani part join Afghanistan? Wouldnt that serve the same purpose?

[DASBZ_05]

Re: Split Afghanistan

Not really, beacuse its the only country which represents our identity. Its 58 years and pashtuns within the country can't rename their own province, what will happen wehn all of us join. There will be a resurgence for pashtun unity, why would we unite only to be still be a minority, while in Afghanistan we would be the absolute majority. There we can (that is if reunite, and get soem real pashtuns in power), we can promote our language and history. By your logic, Turks conquered India, but I don't much commonality, do I? Mughals did rule well past the indus, but they had little control over pashtuns, in fact it was the mughal rule that incited Afghan nationalism. The first afghan nationalist was born,Pir roshan, as he advocated pashtun unity against the moghuls.

[MALIK_786]

Re: Split Afghanistan

@DASBZ_05

Uzbeks have nothign to do with us at all, they are turkic people. The reason is that our area ends at indus river, so we have been accustomed to the culture their, it doesn't make us similar. With Tajiks, we are grouped as the same people, as well as same language group. Does it mean that I am an all out fanboy and ready to write wha they did off? No, but I am not going to buy the statement you said, our history is the history of Afghanistan, this is a fact, that noone has ever disputed.

DABZ. tell that to the Tadjik fella I work with
Actually the single biggest problem you will have with your plan of breaking Pakistan is the millions upon millions of Pashtuns who live in Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad and so forth. The fact is most of the material wealth and educated Pashtuns in this world live in Pakistan proper. Do you think that oridinary Pakistanis will take kindly to there country being fractured, and what will be the fate of these millions?
Another issue you will have to contest is the Hindkowans who in fact inhabit much of the prime land in current NWFP. I think very, very few of them would ever agree to join a nation such as Afghanistan that is almost entirely ethnically divided the the point of constant civil war.
I think these two issues in themselves are nearly insurmountable.
If you look at the actual NWFP lands that could easily join Afghanistan you would find a small and insignificant land mass the rest would be a struggle and would be very ugly seperation. Not to mention Pashtun refugees from the rest of Pakistan (probably in numbers nearly as large as those in NWFP) and the loss of wealth they would suffer.
So you see calling for an end to Pakistan is easy but in practice it would be diffucult

[DASBZ_05]

Re: Split Afghanistan

That is not true, HIndkowans are a group among NWFP, but they are not that significant. PLus ou have to account the fact that there are alot of pashtun tribes (jadoon) and pashtun(afghans) by blood and culture but they speak a foreign language. Hindkos are in number, but as much as many have hyped them up to be. If they were that significant than conquerors, such as the british, and what not would have pointed out this fact.

[MALIK_786]

Re: Split Afghanistan

@DASBZ_05

That is not true, HIndkowans are a group among NWFP, but they are not that significant. PLus ou have to account the fact that there are alot of pashtun tribes (jadoon) and pashtun(afghans) by blood and culture but they speak a foreign language. Hindkos are in number, but as much as many have hyped them up to be. If they were that significant than conquerors, such as the british, and what not would have pointed out this fact.

Some Hinkdo speaking are of Pasthun blood, but in general they are mixed Patohari (my own people) and Pashtun.
As for size, you have an entire district in NWFP that is Hindko and consistutes probably the most well planned and populated urban developments in the area, In fact Peshawer was (and to some degree still is) largely Hindkowan.
To think these people would agree to join Afghanistan is laugable, I was reading an Afghan message board the other day and saw something to the effect of "hahaha look at the earthquake in Balakot, looks like the Farangi hindko "pathans" are getting what they deserve for being loyal to Pakistan"
Well fact is, and this is cold hard fact, Hazara district Pakistan is more developed and civilized than Afghanistan is, or ever has been.
BTW you still have'nt answered my question on how you will deal with the worlds elite, richest most educated Pashtuns of Pakistan proper (Karachi, Lahore, Islmbd heck even Quetta) being disconnected from you hypothetical Afghan super state.

[DASBZ_05]

Re: Split Afghanistan

The same way you would deal with those pakistani well established in the staes or other european countries. Or in fact those muslims as well, but thn tmx305 will shed light on his infinite wisdom.

[DASBZ_05]

Re: Split Afghanistan

Plus economics is not permanent. If today Afghanistan is doing terrible, whose to say in the future it won't imporve? What if the tables turn, these so-called pashtuns(afghans) will just as quickly change wouldn't they?

P.S. Some afghan message boards are jokes, not all though, but theres a few members that make you want to think if thier parents dropped them when they were kids(kind of like members here).

[MALIK_786]

Re: Split Afghanistan

DABZ,, hmmm
A nation without its most educated and wealthiest members, not just a small amount but a very significant minority.
Diff between that and Pakistanis in the West is there are 150 mill Paksitanis (enough infrastructure to build an atomic bomb and fight a nation 10 times our size to a standstill for 50 years) and maybe 5% of that is abroad.
For Pashtuns on the other hand maybe 30% of your population (whatever it is a significant minority) lives in Pakistan proper. Most of the wealth even in rural NWFP and the tribal areas is directly due to smuggling into Pakistan. The minute you get what you want, all that ends.
So you see I dont see how your proposal is viable.

As for Afghan economy, lets just say its as permanent as it gets. Economics change, but Afghanistan is less likely to change than even Mozambique and Swaziland. Its a tribal ethnic based society with archaic traditions, out of place in the new world. Did I mention the Afghan national airline was recently banned by the EU as being unsafe? The national airline for gods sake, amazing.

BTW, as bad as this site can be, the diff between this and Afghan websites is that here no one openly calls to kill everyone not in their ethnic group and gets applauded for it LOL
Even our idiots (and we have our fair share) speak in relatively gentle terms.

[system]

Re: Split Afghanistan

@DASBZ_05

Not really, beacuse its the only country which represents our identity. Its 58 years and pashtuns within the country can’t rename their own province, what will happen wehn all of us join. There will be a resurgence for pashtun unity, why would we unite only to be still be a minority, while in Afghanistan we would be the absolute majority. There we can (that is if reunite, and get soem real pashtuns in power), we can promote our language and history. By your logic, Turks conquered India, but I don’t much commonality, do I? Mughals did rule well past the indus, but they had little control over pashtuns, in fact it was the mughal rule that incited Afghan nationalism. The first afghan nationalist was born,Pir roshan, as he advocated pashtun unity against the moghuls.

All this at the expense of the other minorites? I mean, for all your nationalist ramblings, you conveniently forget that 50 percent of Afghans arent Pashtun on whom you are imposing your will.. Much in the same thing you acuse Punjabis of doing in Pakistan. I honestly dont understand your logic.. Your whole postition sees rather selfish… You ignore ground realities in favor of something that will never be practical…
The history of the region HAS had an effect on all people of the region. The area has has the same influences.. Pashto probably has as much Hindustani influences and Persian influences as the rest of Pakistan… It also has the same Arabic (read Islamic) influences..
Perhaps if your DEFINED Pashthun culture… What is unique about Pashtun culture that is different from the rest of Pakistan?

[Kooks]

Re: Split Afghanistan

@PaKpatriot1

No he is a descent person.. I have no problem with him. He dislikes the Pakhtuns as much as I do.. He agreed that Pathans should never be allowed to join Afghnaistan.. Although he is more forgiving.. Said that he hated most pakistanis and Pathans included until he met them and realized they werent all Taliban... And he didnt slaughter anyone as far as he knows... He told me that he was a sniper, but never really knew if he killed someone for sure. After the fall of the Taliban, he said he was actually singled out by some of the CNN there for being among the few who were actually nice to some of these people by not treating them badly. He has a really interesting story infact, speaks about six languages including russian, and he was working for the BBC as a translator in Afghanistan and Islamabad. He was in documentary by CNN in which he said he would like to be a doctor and he was seen by the head of the university im in and was given a scholorship... So very interesting person. ALOT better then the majority of the Afghan refugees, who just happen to ingrate Pakhtuns.

check where yor loyalties lie. dont praise your enemies to spite a few pashtun nationalists here.

you obviously hate pakhtuns as you mention it above.....i think your a stain on the name of pakistan.

it's about time us pakistanis did something to rid of peopel like you and then we can have peace on both sides of the border.

your views are very biased. you tend to focus on individuals to judge groups of people.

[system]

Re: Split Afghanistan

Not to mention the fact that some historians think that the Pashtuns are rajputs… According to the late Henry Walter Bellew…
http://www.khyber.org/pashtohistory/hindurajputs.shtml
http://www.the-south-asian.com/April2004/Books-Pathans-1.htm
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_6-4-2003_pg3_5

[system]

Re: Split Afghanistan

@Kooks

check where yor loyalties lie. dont praise your enemies to spite a few pashtun nationalists here.

you obviously hate pakhtuns as you mention it above…i think your a stain on the name of pakistan.
it’s about time us pakistanis did something to rid of peopel like you and then we can have peace on both sides of the border.

your views are very biased. you tend to focus on individuals to judge groups of people.

No, Pashtuns are ok for the most part, what I hate is you… I dont like people who wish to destroy the country.. ignorant arse kissing morons like you are the traitors.. Your the stain.. Your should go to Afghanistan where they might actually welcome your type.. My views have no bias in them.. Nationalist are the countries enemy, and butt licking morons like you are the exact reason why the country is where it is…
Ass

[Kooks]

Re: Split Afghanistan

i think wehther we like it or not these pashtuns wil eventually have their own state. pashtuns are very bitter agaisnt pakistan hence they voted the anti-musharaf MMA. pakistan has not just alienated left wing pashtuns but right wing too..

malik you mention that many pashtuns work in cities like lahore and karachi. they dont work their because of choice. they work their because the pakistani government has no real intention to develop nwfp. all the development does got to punjab. a few minor attempts have been made to set up some industry in nwfp but it is not enough. i am sure the pashtuns here agree witht his

pashtuns tend to hate working outside their own areas and this is why most who tend to move out live as single men there. this is wil alienate pashtuns further.

the hindkowans make a small % of nwfp. chitralies have a lot in common with their brothers and sisters across the durand line. no one looks at the rights of shias, ahmadis, aga khanis, hindus within pakistan so why bash the pashtuns with this argument?

why we are discussing the durand line in virtually every topic, i do not know. it is getting boring. is this subject resurrected every week? can we not have a block of this subject for 6 weeks? there are worse problems within pakistan to discuss. no more durand line on here anyway please!

[system]

Re: Split Afghanistan

@MALIK_786

DABZ, hmmm
A nation without its most educated and wealthiest members, not just a small amount but a very significant minority.
Diff between that and Pakistanis in the West is there are 150 mill Paksitanis (enough infrastructure to build an atomic bomb and fight a nation 10 times our size to a standstill for 50 years) and maybe 5% of that is abroad.
For Pashtuns on the other hand maybe 30% of your population (whatever it is a significant minority) lives in Pakistan proper. Most of the wealth even in rural NWFP and the tribal areas is directly due to smuggling into Pakistan. The minute you get what you want, all that ends.
So you see I dont see how your proposal is viable.
As for Afghan economy, lets just say its as permanent as it gets. Economics change, but Afghanistan is less likely to change than even Mozambique and Swaziland. Its a tribal ethnic based society with archaic traditions, out of place in the new world. Did I mention the Afghan national airline was recently banned by the EU as being unsafe? The national airline for gods sake, amazing.

BTW, as bad as this site can be, the diff between this and Afghan websites is that here no one openly calls to kill everyone not in their ethnic group and gets applauded for it LOL
Even our idiots (and we have our fair share) speak in relatively gentle terms.

Thats cause no one wants to be banned:)