Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Sorry, I take it back if it is the opposite of what it says in the Bible. Please disregard it.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Salvation can come from only Jesus because he is GOD, and the only one who led a blameless life. That is a fact. The rest is just beating around the bush. I think you know what I meant.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
How is that different from what Islam teaches. Islam says no different. Forgiving is better and be kind to people. Slander and backbiting are sins in Islam. We must increase our taqwa to become more and more pure from sins.
You missed my point, these are things that are unseen to people. What your intention is, is only known to you or God. So you really cannot identify who is doing it from the HS. As we muslims say intention is the most important thing for any action. The action by itself means little in the eyes of Allah SWT but the intention makes it worthy of good or bad deed.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Yes this is what I want, thats all period you believe in salvation only when a human believes Jesus died was crucified as is the God.
My faith is One God, One Creator and One to be worshipped, because creator and created are not one and its the most simplest concept.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
So Islam and Christianity agree that humans are born with a sinful nature.
I suppose a child also say the same when they are born with aids due to their parents…
BUT you are presently not living in paradise, even the Qur’an agree that Adam’s sin caused thus calamity on you! So even the Qur’an agree that Adam’s sin affected you!
Christianity teach that YOU are responsible for your own desitiny, although you are tied to your predessesors’ actions.
Not true. Please give the verse.
And that is the difference between the teachings from the prophet Muhammad and Jesus Christ…
And as I showed in previous posts, it is the prophet Muhammad that got it wrong because Jesus NEVER wrote the socalled Injil.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Unknowingly means the person commits a sin without EVER knowing that he did commit a sin. How does this person get saved?
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Didn’t want to disagree with you when you wrote it. Your quote is with respect to Lucifer, not people. It is honourable to accept if one has made a mistake, I have made several. We live and learn. One does not always get the opportunity to rectify mistakes though…
Go well 
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
I wonder did i mentione that we are born with sinful nature did I:confused:
Did the Quran mentioned I wonder did it, I want the proof as is it another concocted idea.
Clear cut contradiction either we are responsible for our own destin and still tied up for our predecessors actions i wonder how is that possible.
Read Hebrew 7- till verse 30 probably i have read it wrong.
Not agreed as this is not the teaching of Mohammed but the teaching of God, and Christianity. Coz Mohammed did not do anything other than the will of God so his teachings are nothing but from God.
So it should be difference between Islam and Christianity according to a Muslim and not Mohammed and Jesus as we believe in this aya
002.285YUSUFALI: The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. “We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers.” And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.”
Absolutely Prophet Mohammed got it wrong accordint to the conjeture of a human, but yes if its a christian faith i agree wiht your words coz as Mentioned by USR if Prophet Mohammed spoke about Trinity will he be accepted as prophet.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Agreed now as my friend TOM is agree with you.:D
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
MM only quoted some. Jesus and the Holy Spirit ALSO teach that salvation is only through accepting Jesus as Saviour.
Correct. There are many people that do the things of God without knowing God’s teachings. It is man’s spirit, that originally came from God when He blew part of His Spirit into man’s nostrils. There is a pull in all humans to do good and to seek a Creator and to worship this Creator. God’s Spirit works with all humans, some refuse to comply and the Spirit will then leave them alone.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Yes, and here is a also to you!
Your own words state that “But since Humans have free choice its the nature for the humans to commit sin”. Surely this “nature” did not arive later in life?
Surah 2:34-37 is equivalent to the Biblical story only sketchy (as I found with a number of other stories the prophet Muhammad taught).
Come with it, SlaveofAllaah! Where you come from and your origen most definitively influence your life - no arguments! Your destination though is in your hands (future). Surely your English is not that bad? Absolutely NO contradiction!!!
You did get it wrong, no problem, I also make mistakes!
And the same can be said for Jesus and his disciples. Only difference between the two faiths are that the one’s prophet waged war and others died for their believes by torture. I can tell you which carries the more weight…
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
[2:57] <Jesus`> i died for your beer
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Yes, Islam teaches that, but it also says an eye for an eye is OK. Jihad is permissible under certain conditions. Jesus on the other hand strictly forbade us to think even think of revenge. He walked his talk. That is a big difference between Islam and Christ.
As TOM said, the H.S. is naturally inclined with Christ, so it will lead you to Him if you are willing to listen.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
I think you do not really understand eye for an eye. What you said about Jesus PBUH is absolutely true. Let me refresh your memory by quoting the verses:
This verse about the fullfilment of law
Matthew 5
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
This verse about eye for an eye
Matthew 5
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Now if you look at verse 38 in the light of verse 17 you will realize that eye for an eye existed even before Islam and Jesus PBUH did not abolish it as he mentioned that he did not come to abolish the law of prophets. What Jesus PBUH emphasized here is that forgiving is better than eye for an eye. He was telling his followers teaching them to increase themselves in piety by go a step higher.
My fellow Christian this is no different than what Muhammad SAW has conveyed to us. Eye for an eye exists but forgiving is better and more liked by Allah SWT. Eye for an eye is still just though.
If you read your statement you said Jesus PBUH forbade revenge. If you read the verse it does not forbid revenge but offers recommendation which is more liked and favored by God. This is exactly the same in Islam.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Nope.
Acts 3:22: Moses said, “The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to Him in whatever he tells you.” (So Moses admits Jesus is greater than him)
Matthew 5:38–39: You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” But I tell you, do not resist an evil person
Galatians 3:13: Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.
Luke 16:16: The law and the prophets reigned until the time of John: and since that time, the kingdom of God is preached, and every man strives to go in.
Romans 13:8-9: Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. For all of the commandments… are all summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
**Luke 6:29-31: If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Matthew 26:52: “Put your sword back in its place… for all who take the sword will die by the sword.”
Ephesians 4:31-32: Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Can you show me where in the Bible Jesus said forgiveness is better than revenge, thereby implying that revenge is understandable..? On the contrary the old law is referred to as a curse. Jesus does not say ‘I forbid you to..’ (wrong choice of word from me, ) but we are left with a clear understanding that revenge will not bring us salvation or good fortune of any sort, but downfall.
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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Now I feel i wasnt clear though, the words born of sin and its nature to commit sin is different. Imagine one day kid being sent to hell is this justice, he is just born what sin will he do, when he cant do anything. Now this is the state Islam talks about and is sinless and submits its will to Allaah, so by nature its sinless but just not the day its born.
Now human mind is designed by Allaah to be rationale and this is what, i am pointing towards.
Yes Allaah taught and not the Prophet according ot the Muslims, well no where is mentioned what you have mentioned to you last rebuttall that the sins of Adam are carried onto us. Becuase this would contradict the Quran as we are responsible for our deeds.
Now you mentioned two things 1) We are responsible for our destination
2) Few come from our predecessors correct me if I am wrong.
Fine from the predecessors i can inherit the culture, the way to talk, walk eat and drink. But finally if my father is a pious person and i am notorious i did ot inherit this from my father, and the sins I commit are my own. Now these things or more cannot be blamed to predecessors.
I personally feel this is a debatable topic and I feel we are responsible for our deeds and accountable for what we have done and not what our fathers, adam and my ancestors have done.
Well this verse of the Quran is quite logical and very true
*006.116 *
SHAKIR: And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah’s way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie.
You did get it wrong, no problem, I also make mistakes!
Finally its boils down to Jesus and not bible, i feel if I am right and I am David is a prophet and did wage war. Its mentioned also in various places in the Bible for Justice at times you have to wage war.
In that case the earlier christians waged war, entered into many regions and forced Christianity do you feel its right or wrong. Because if they wouldnt have they wouldnt know about christianity, unless a society see what its all about they can accept it at times.
Like today you are happy you could see christianity as a society, since young and these makes so many points clear at times. Well overall, i dont understand what you mean by torture and what carries more weight wehn history is clear on the earlier conquests of christians and muslims.
I dont say the present generation will come towards truth but later generations, but as mentioned the torture and more weight word is not clear enough.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
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Now decide whether Jesus is prophet or son of God. I would be happy now this confuses again. Well by the way. Its say thats MOses said that Prophet like me. Its your own idea its says Prophet like me not greter then me, I want conclusive statement.
Now Jesus is no way is Prophet like Moses.
- Accordin tto christian faith, Jesus was sinless, MOses was a sinner now where is it like me. Can I ahve dictionary for the meaning like.
- Jesus was God, Moses was a Prophet accordint to christian faith.
- Now if you know the semitic language then brothers refer to something else. I dont wont to delve into this deeply.
- MOses died and Jesus died on christ, came back again so where is it like me.
- Moses was accepted by his people, Jesus was not accepted now where is the similarity.**
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Be logical and realise why this verse was there in the Bible, because there has to be Just on earth as we know at time Justice does not mean being good, smile, if you hit dont hit him back. Justice is also achieved by different means.
We have to realise this that to achieve Justice its not always peace, forgiveness but we have to do Justice they are many means for it.
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Let USR take over from here.
Btw I am happy MM is into discussion actively coz at times I felt TOM was burgeoned with too many questions. Thought by the Praise of God he patiently answers lots of questions, and sacrificed a fortune of time for it.
Well MM its nice to see you as this is a Islamic forum the people from other faith will be questioned.But since you have joined in TOM and MM makes more sense in the debate just my 2c.**
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
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Well I am sure you have seen many instances where people have achieved their goals without being violent. And many times when one is hell bent on retribution it just makes things worse. This may be a bad eg to give, but Jews got Israel by lobbying, not blowing up Nazis.
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Thank you. I too think TOM makes more sense than me. I hope he will give his opinion on this eye for an eye debate as it is taking a very interesting course.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
A true Christian believes the teachings of Jesus are the most important thing there is. Just becaue they don't imitate the way he brushed his teeth or the direction he played doesn't mean that his spiritual teachings aren't of the uptmost importance.
And we all know, the ONLY think muslims do is that kind emulation...you judge but you don't see...was that what Christ did?
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Christians throughout the centuries rejected pacifism as a legitimate doctrine...at least in action, no matter what was said. Either duplicity is sanctioned by the faith, or provisions have been made for blessed violence.
Understanding Christ's (pbuh) commandments to non-violence must be understood within the context of his Roman subjugation. Within a blink of an eye, his followers could have been wiped out. He didn't seem to show any interest in leaving, so as a mindful leader, he only chose the proper stratagem for his circumstance.
Clearly not all of God's prophet's eschewed war, and indeed one could argue in the case of Moses (pbuh) God himself intervened in a most violent way.
Maybe you guys can help me out here...I set out a while back to find any references that would specifically mention the hyper-violent nature of the Romans, and speciifc condemnations from Christ as to their behavior. I didn't get far for lack of time, but perhaps you may know of some...