Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Jesus had nothing to say about the Roman rule except that the Christians should pay their taxes, obey the laws unless it clash with God’s decrees.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Then when does the sinful nature enter?

Not earlier Christians. Christians, before Constantin in the fourth century after Jesus Christ, NEVER engaged in wars OR forced people to accept Christianity. The prophet Muhammad actually led men into wars. Definitely NOT a man of peace!

The point is that these people DIED under torture for their faith, and the prophet NOT.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Thanks!

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

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Then when does the sinful nature enter?

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My answer to you is will the kid who will die in just one hour will he enter hell or not. That would be an answer to all your arguements. I want an answer to this one.

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Not earlier Christians. Christians, before Constantin in the fourth century after Jesus Christ, NEVER engaged in wars OR forced people to accept Christianity. The prophet Muhammad actually led men into wars. Definitely NOT a man of peace!

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I think so thats is what I meant. This shows your ignorance aabout Islamic history and confirms the statement of Pope. This is an argument which I end up saying if you believe Prophet was a man of peace, (I believe with 1.4 billion other Muslims he was a man of peace) would you accept Islam so this is a trivial argument there greater things to believe that he is the Prophet, wel this is your thinking and other thing, I like it whenyou compart two great men.
Instead of comparing the scriptures we believe Quran is the word of Allaah.

[QUOTE]

The point is that these people DIED under torture for their faith, and the prophet NOT.

[/QUOTE]

I still did not understand what you meant but conjecturize, your statement.

Which people died under torture of faith and Prophet did not, well I wonder again you are missing on some Islamic history and are fallen for the Westerners and the media.

I wonder one place you say Prophet was a man of War and other place prophet did die under torture of faith. Well how can both of these things come together, just cant logically.

Basically he did not die doesnt disprove he is not a Prophet, I didnt know the yardstick to Prophet was to die.Well all these events are covered under Islamic history and not Quran. Because Quran is not a book of history, well every Prophet is gone through torture, so there was nothing new with Prophet Mohammed.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Jesus’ teaching on “an eye for an eye” is part of his illustrations (started with verse 19) of how impossible it is to keep the Law in all its essence and meaning.

There are very few, if any, who can do what Jesus teach w.r.t. to revenge. I know I can’t. Jesus basically teach that the Law of God (not Moses) means that NO revenge may be planned/enacted. In fact, you should even give more than what the other person is doing/asking.

Jesus in his teachings taught a few things differently from what the Jews took as the Law of Moses. For example his teachings on divorce (verse 31-32). When questioned on this subject later, Jesus clearly taught that allowing to divorce, is something taught by Moses and not God (Mark.10v5-9)!

One needs to make a difference between the Law of God (as summarized in the Ten Commandments (the Old Testament Covenant) for the Jews) relative to rules and regulations set by leaders (Moses and King David) and prophets (Isaiah, Daniel). Rules and regulations how people should conduct their interactions with each other, were given and changed as these people see the need. Similar to what the prophet Muhammad taught. All these rules and regulations were inspired for their time, but they might not be for today. That is why later prophets/leaders sometimes abrogated/changed these rules/regulations.

Whenever the Law and Prophets OR the Law of Moses is mentioned, it revers to the rules and regulations as set down by these people. Whenever the Ten Commandments or The Law is revered to, it means the Ten Commandments God Himself wrote down personally.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

The prophet Muhammad did not die under torture for his faith. The disciples and of Jesus all died torturous deaths for their faith. I rather believe those that feel so strong for their faith that they are willing to die for it (especially since they knew Jesus personally), than someone that was never put to the test…

I did not say what you attribute to me. You don’t make sense, brother! :flower2:

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Actually your choice of words is wrong again. Revenge is what someone seeks in the absence of justice. The eye for an eye law is to provide justice not revenge.

MM our discussion is not on the same frequency. Your original point was that the teachings of Jesus PBUH are not to be found in the teachings in Muhammad SAW. Now your discussion has gone on a tangent about salvation. The verses you quoted are really unrelated to finding commonality of teaching. The verses you quoted especially the one from Galations is about belief in Christianity leading to salvation compared to the observance of law. Plus it is what Paul was preaching, those words cannot be accredited to Jesus PBUH. Basically what Paul had emphasized is that the belief is the key to salvation not just blind obedience to the law without the proper belief. So those who observe the law without believing in Jesus PBUH crucifiction and dying for their sins are really no closer to salvation. This has absolutely nothing to do with the eye for an eye law or teaching of Jesus PBUH to love people inspite their shortcomings and evil ways. Actually again, this is similar to what muslims believe without the proper belief salvation cannot be achieved even if a good life has been lived observing laws. The difference being in our belief you must believe in the Monotheism of Allah SWT to be eligible to salvation whereas in your belief it is believing that Jesus PBUH was crucified for your sins.

Our discussion entangled about teachings not beliefs for salvation.

Hi
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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

This verse by itself warrrants a separate thread. I don’t know if UsmanShahid is viewing this thread but if he is I am sure he would have loads to say about this verse in particular.

English of sharm o haya
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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Now this is wehre i dont wont to argue forgive me but I have got to be harsh there is no using debating when you have no knowledge about Islamic history.
Infact you should only read the history of Makkah after Prophethood and how many where prosecuted and put to death. I believe that, if someone has no knowledge regarding some facts should accept what isbeen told unless further research is done if some one has knowledge then s/he can go ahead and pose a counter arguement.

I mean to say The Old Man

  1. You say that Propeht was a Prophet of War, now whats the probability a hypothetical situation the if you go out to fight that YOu be alive/dead/injured/prisoner of war. So the probability is 0.25 to for all of them equally. IN the time of Prophet there were 64 conquests/envoys and Prophet was physically involved in 26 battles but killed none. Even an anti islamic website cant say he killed anyone as this is the truth.

  2. When Prophet went out for war it was for the Sake of GOD and GOD ordained the Prophet, so he went out to fight knowing he would infact be killed infact during the Battle of Uhud, Prophet was rumoured that he died so in a battle they are chances he could die as the other companions of the Prophet died.
    (He cant go out for war as well as not die as explained above logically, if i cant make sense then read further below)

So if Prophet dies, in the battle is it out of torture, ok if answer is no then he died because of faith.

Let me throw some light on the last 3 years of Makkah and why they had to migrate to Medina. Which changed the complete turn of events for the world and Islam both.

The last 3 years of makkah, the Mushriks of Makkah had, boycotted the whole of Islam clan . The companions of the Prophet lived licking the the skins of animal, with no food for days, they used to put a rope round there stomach with a stone so that they shoudnt feel they are hungry. Prophet infact tied two stones in one instance.

The trade route was blocked and they could do nothing for 3 years, the kith and kin of some them who were still Mushriks used to take some food stealthily.

In the mean time Abu Talib the uncle of Prophet died, infact he supported and Protected him by the will of Allaah though Allaah is the best protector. The Prophets wife Khadija and Abu Talib died in the 12th year, and this was called the Year of Sorrow. With the death of his uncle, all the protection was lost.

So other means had to be seen Prophet with his adopted son went to Taif a village near Makkah, he was stoned there by the kids and elders equally. The Noble’s Prophet feet bleeding, swollen and he called this as the Bitterest day of his life see the superlative I am using here.

Is this not torture, well if its not in your dictionary then I am sorry I cant be more detailed. Well Gabriel in the mean time descended to the Prophet and asked him ‘shall i destroy the whole village’.

What did Prophet do at this time, got down to his knees, Praised Allaah, asked for his forgiveness and the forgiveness of all the People who stoned him and infact asked Allaah to bless them.

Thanks.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Torture, yes, Torture till death, no. Jesus’ disciples were killed in differerent torturous ways because of their faith. They preferred death before recanting their faith. What you discribed as what happened to the prophet Muhammad happened many more times to the Apostle Paul. Only thing different is that the Apostle Paul was later killed for his faith, the prophet not.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

I asked: "Then when does the sinful nature enter?", and are still waiting on an answer....

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Unknowingly means the person commits a sin without EVER knowing that he did commit a sin. How does this person get saved since he would not even know to repent?

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

I believe we have come to the end of this series of discussions on the teachings of the two faiths, Islam and Christianity.

I wish to thank USResident for initiating the series, and also all the others who participated in such a positive way. I enjoyed the discussion and do feel that we all have a better understanding of each others faith.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Yes, as expected you have left the entire post and concluded on this particular statment. I have asked you a couple of questions in the earlier post you have refrained from answering, my feeling is you have no answer for it. Thats fine i dont mind.

First I did not know that our Prophet lacked faith it would be new to me. Secondly, I did not know torture should always lead to death.
For instance, I am actually not going against your belief when we know Jesus was never tortured to death at all, ok fine even If i apply the concordist approach he died due to torture. Does that nullify him being the Son of God and other diciples if they wouldnt have died due to torture.

Would they faith reduce, if they died due to torture. So you mean to say people who die out of faith and are tortured to death are true people i hope you are not joking. Then i feel you as a true christian believer have other test to follow. I did not this is new to me.

My friend The Old Man i feel you are buckling I think I have clearly mentioned the probability, of being alive in war is 0.25 percent and imagine if i narrow it down to 26 battles the probability would narrow down. I feel i was clear, but you failed to mention anyways let it be.

Ok more in detail Yasir and Summayya first, Martyrs of Islam Parent of Hazrath Ammaar bin Yasir.
Summaayya in Makkah when the Muslims were Prosecuted being a women, was torn apart in front of all of them, tortured, and died due to faith and tortured to death. This is just one of such eg. they are many.

But if you feel, our Prophet lacked faith and he did not die due to torture and someone uses this yardstick to identify a person evne then I have answered your question wrt Probability, well thats fine it would be new to me if i get to know someone is tortured and died wiht faith there ismore weight for them compared to others.

That means to say Jafar Ibn Talib also died, Sumayya also died due to faith and tortured great she has more weight then the Prophet. Please provide me a conclusive statement from Bible, it carries more weight if person is tortured and then killed and due to faith.

Well, as we believe the disciple of Jesus died and they ae into Paradise as the died submitting they will to God and someone who submits there will to God is a Muslim, Praise be to God this is been happening since then. May God bless them and grant them the best in Paradise.

Ameen.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

This in reply to #111 to The Old Man

Dont mind i have so many of my questions unanswered the one I did PM you but your still bent on the fact i have to answer well I dont refrain from it.

Ok when does the sinful nature enter, and I asked you in simple words what happens if the baby dies 1second after birth not evne 1 hours. Is he thrown to hell.

Does the sin enter since the time baby was born, when he still under submission of God, tell me what about a baby when dies after 1 second does he enter hell, i hope you gettingmy drift coz here lies in your answer. If you cant figure out then, I would just say I would agree wiht some illogical reasoning of Original sin.

That due to Adam, my 1 second baby is thrown into hell fire and what a fantastic sacrifice by Jesus who sacrificed everyone coz of this sin, but my one second baby he couldnt even die on the faiththat Jesus died on the cross. Fine I agree with this logic, then and agree baby born with sin, due to Adam and be blashpemous about Islam and agree with illogical stuff of original sin.

I am pondering is original sin logical or the one someone is accountable for his/her own deeds. Well, if I agree with you baby is born with the nature of sinning since 1st second or much more minute and if i dont agree, I feel its accountable after sometime in life and certainly not until its a baby.

Well Great to have discussion wiht you and I personally laud the efforts of USR and TOM for carrying such a sensitive debate with great elan. Well, I am sorry if I have hurt anyones faith in the meantime but it was wonderfully moderated.

Thanks once again.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

I fail to see any redeeming qualities in his unjust death whatsoever, and am loathed to suggest that suicide (i.e. certain death) in the face of other options is the "right" way...was fleeing not an option?

It should be noted that a torturous death was exactly what the Pagans had in mind...had it not been for Muslim resistance to their march on Medina, it most certainly would have happened.

Last person to answer this post wins!!!!
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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

When a person repents he asks forgiveness for all his sins not he does necessarily ask forgiveness by name of each sin he committed. If I am aware of something wrong I committed, when I repent I will most probably specifically be asking repentance for that sin and also asking forgiveness for sins I am not aware of that I committed. When you say in Christianity that Jesus PBUH died for your sins, you do not mention specifically which sins do you, you just consider a blanket of salvation for all sins. Along the same lines, muslims ask for blanket repentance in many cases, which would cover known and unknown sins. The point about not having knowledge that a certain action is a sin is so that we can refrain from that action had we known it was a sin not so we can specifically ask forgiveness for it.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Salvation and escape from sin by christianity and islam according to them is only this-

if non christians Convert to christianity according to christians, change your name into a christian one and proclaim their allegiance to christ, then there is salvation or else you will burn in hell:D .

if non muslims Convert to islam according to muslims, change your name into a muslim one and proclaim their allegiance to ummah and accept muhammad as last prophet or else you will..............(you know what i mean:D ). To be fair to muslims, You will only get visa to jannah only if you are a muslim not necessarily salvation.

This is the conclusion of all the dialogues(i.e both want each other and the rest of the world to convert to their faiths, change their names, and proclaim their allegiance to some dogma).

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Any other praise you might have. This thread is for muslims and christians not hindus. I would have thought you were literate enough to understand that.

Looking for Rishtas? Post here.
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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

I didn't type my above post thinking that i belong to some group/belief. just told a fact (according u guys that is)