Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Of course. I am sure that Islam also teach that once you die, you don’t just happen to “not exist”. God was still existent as the Father and the Holy Spirit were still together, even Jesus still existed!
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
So Islam do not believe that one can sin unknowingly?
Still waiting on my other questions…
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
His own choice and temptation.
Oh God is the supreme, Muhammad SAW is in the picture because Allah SWT revealed his final revelation and message to mankind through Muhammad SAW and made his life an example for understanding the last message. Had Allah SWT chose Jesus PBUH to be the last messenger then it would have been him instead of Muhammad SAW.
Those who followed the proper teachings of Jesus PBUH.
If they genuinely never heard of Islam. Though they possess the intellect to ponder about God even within their own frame of reference. Prophet Abraham PBUH is the biggest example of this.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Doesn’t explain why a sinless person would all of a suddenly out of choice start to sin. Just is not logic.
And we have to trust the prophet on his word, nothing else? I believe that is another reason why Jesus HAD to be born of a virgin, to show to people how special his teaching would be. I also believe that is the reason why Jesus, even according to Islam, was taken up alive and will come back - because he is not the normal “prophet” but someone immensly more important.
Which is as per the New Testament because the prophet Muhammad NEVER found anything wrong with the New Testament. He had a problem with the Old Testament. Why would all these people, who one moment lived a certain way, all just change to something totally alien to them? Just not logically…
Glad to know people can be saved outside of Islam.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
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Doesn't explain why a sinless person would all of a suddenly out of choice start to sin. Just is not logic.
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According to Islam, humans have free choice and the Jinns unlike earth, sky, plants, any object.
But since Humans have free choice its the nature for the humans to commit sin. But logically speaking, the concept of christianity does not hold good at all. I am not being blasphemous but rationale. Why should I be as a new born kid accountable to Adam, is this JUST, no way think logically not just because Bible says so.
And I dont believe in such god with a small g, who holds me accountable for someone else who is committed a sin. But if I am held accountable,in the court of law for such action then that act is considered unjust and someone who is unjust ceases to be god, he no more has the attributes of God. So this concept, is logically untrue and does is not best fit to the human mind. Well, I am talkig now about the court of God and not some human.
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And we have to trust the prophet on his word, nothing else? I believe that is another reason why Jesus HAD to be born of a virgin, to show to people how special his teaching would be. I also believe that is the reason why Jesus, even according to Islam, was taken up alive and will come back - because he is not the normal "prophet" but someone immensly more important.
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I have already proved according to Heb 7-3 that the King had no descendants clearly, i still agreed wiht your point as there is no point arguing but now you forced me to, read the verses below it says the King is sinless now whats your answer for that, so your argument is again nulll and void.
So according to your own scripture, I have proved this is untrue in christianity and If this verse is there in the Bible that Jesus was born virgin coz of beig sinless then I want the proof and if its there then even in the Hebrews chapter 7, the complete argument is equivalent ot Jesus born sinless as even the Priest was also sinless.
Jesus is not immensely important as this is your own concocted idea, without any reference now I shall give you the reasons. Jesus was raised up alive because the people then blasphemed that Jesus was son of God and secondly, Jesus in his second coming will come only for the christians to prove them wrong, that he is just the Prophet and not the son of God, so this argument is again baseless and i dont see to be contentious further.
Overall in the Quran, Allaah is mentioned that If i had a son the skies would burst asunder, and someone according to Islam says Jesus is son of God is committing clear cut blasphemy
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Which is as per the New Testament because the prophet Muhammad NEVER found anything wrong with the New Testament. He had a problem with the Old Testament. Why would all these people, who one moment lived a certain way, all just change to something totally alien to them? Just not logically....
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The New testament is the word of the christians and according to Islam written by its some people and this is not the revelattion thats the Injil the Muslims believe, because christians have a completely different doctrine and its not according to the faith of all the Prophets who only came down with the message of ONE GOD.
We dont believe that the Bible is the Word of God period and you agree to it as you have confirmed they are slight inconsequential contradictions in the bible. Overall this is not the Injil and we believe that what was propagated was not Injil and Allaah is refuted this statement in the Quran,
002.077 *
**SHAKIR:* Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?
002.078 *
**SHAKIR:* And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.
002.079 *
**SHAKIR:* Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. *
*
So the last ayah signifies that the Injil the revelation of Allaah but, the christians what they consider as the Bible, is exaclty accordingly to the last verse.
But if your not satisfied even now then I have to produce this ayah
004.157 *
**SHAKIR:* And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
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Glad to know people can be saved outside of Islam
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I am glad to know, the the God i believe in is logical and Just and holds accountable for every atom of good deed we do and every atom of bad deed we do. Someone, then being so merciless and unjust ceases to be god and its only man made conjectures.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Still waiting on my other questions...
Missed this post.
Unknowingly means when a person is not aware that his action constitutes a sin or something forbidden. Once he finds out that certain actions of his are forbidden then if he repeats them after having knowledge they are regarded as sins.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Actually couldn't be more logical. Tell me when you want to eat spicy food you are aware it may cause an upset stomach, right. But at certain times you just go ahead and do it and the next day you regret it. Does this mean you were born with an upset stomach, certainly not, your stomach is ailing because you made a choice to eat the spicy food. Sinning is a choice not a trait or quality as in your perspective. We are not born stained with sin but yes as we grow up we do sin major or minor. Human natures biggest weakness is temptation and Allah SWT created this world full of it. If Jesus PBUH came to purge of us our sins then there was no point in the continuation of the world there after, it should have been judgement day. Jesus PBUH sacrifice as per Christianity did not solve any problem of the world i.e. sinning is still rampant, temptations have increased ever more etc. It is the false notion of being already saved by Jesus PBUH that has unleashed most of the evil things unchartered and unchecked. Almost every logic behind Islamic principles can be found ingrained in the very life of this world.
This is your own assumption. I do not claim to know Gods plan as to why Jesus PBUH never died and why he is the one to return as our saviour. At least we believe in Muhammad SAW unlike Christianity that gives litttle regard to what Jesus PBUH actually taught and relies more on the teachings of the disciples and Popes.
If it was alien to them then Jews would not believe in monotheism. Christianity was forced on people not necessarily accepted. Now generations later it is their defacto religion.
Pay attention to what I had said, being saved out of Islam does not mean that you reject Islam and be saved.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Christians do not believe they are already saved so they can sin all they want. At least not from what I have studied and the Christians I know.
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At least we believe in Muhammad SAW unlike Christianity that gives litttle regard to what Jesus PBUH actually taught and relies more on the teachings of the disciples and Popes
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A true Christian believes the teachings of Jesus are the most important thing there is. Just becaue they don't imitate the way he brushed his teeth or the direction he played doesn't mean that his spiritual teachings aren't of the uptmost importance.
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If it was alien to them then Jews would not believe in monotheism. Christianity was forced on people not necessarily accepted. Now generations later it is their defacto religion.
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The same could be said about Islam. Especially since the penalty for not accpeting it was death througout much of Islamic history. In the west there is much freedom to choose your religion, in Muslims societies there is not, even without the death penalty for apostates .
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Semi, if you cannot clearly figure out what the path of salvation is being followed says I would be very uncomfortable following it. You will not find muslims differing about the fundamentals of their religion (maybe you would but rarely not widespread as opposed to Christianity where rarely you come across individuals who really know what they are talking about).
As per OldMan, Christians cannot even separate the actual words of Jesus PBUH from the bible from those of the disciples. If there was a widespread following of what actually Jesus PBUH taught there would be more detailed aspect of his life. Can you show me a single person in history better documented than Muhammad SAW? His spiritual teachings are nothing different from what we believe other than the dogma of his personality has been changed as per our belief. Spiritual teachings are related to God and he taught God being the Almighty supreme just as Muhammad SAW did. Analyzing someones personality is not spiritual.
I agree that this is perhaps one of the most abused and misundertood aspects of Islam. Apostasy accompanied with treason is punishable by death, actually the penalty is for treason not apostasy. Apostasy by itself has no punishment other than from Allah SWT. Apostasy is a crime against Allah SWT whereas treason is a crime against fellow humans. Believing in Islam is no mans right but Allah SWT right upon us. I absolutely disagree with those who say it is apostasy that is liable to capital punishment. Human justice only applies to humans when you violate a right that belong to a human. If you agree with my explanation then don't go around spreading this again because it would mean you really do it for the argument and not because you need an answer.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
old man, i have to be MIA for a few days, I will be back though
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
No, you don't have divergent views amongst Muslims since there has not ever been any type of reformation within the religion and any differing interpretations are strictly discouraged. One could even say forbidden.
Muslims are much more scipturally bound, not requiring followers to think. I happen to think that spirituality isn't that black and white and God requires us to think. IMO fiiguring out how to please God and achieve salvation isn't that difficult and doesn't require memorizing passages or following a strict set of prayers and rituals and living exactly like someone did 1400 years ago or like 1 1/2 billion other people.
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As per OldMan, Christians cannot even separate the actual words of Jesus PBUH from the bible from those of the disciples. If there was a widespread following of what actually Jesus PBUH taught there would be more detailed aspect of his life. Can you show me a single person in history better documented than Muhammad SAW? His spiritual teachings are nothing different from what we believe other than the dogma of his personality has been changed as per our belief. Spiritual teachings are related to God and he taught God being the Almighty supreme just as Muhammad SAW did. Analyzing someones personality is not spiritual.
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If the Bible was inspired by God, then it doesn't matter where the words orignated. God still wants man to follow the teachings, they were inspired by Him. If one believes an angel can recite a book to an illiterate man in a cave that then tells it to others and it all eventually gets put down one book that is protected by God, then it's really not that much of a stretch.
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I agree that this is perhaps one of the most abused and misundertood aspects of Islam. Apostasy accompanied with treason is punishable by death, actually the penalty is for treason not apostasy. Apostasy by itself has no punishment other than from Allah SWT. Apostasy is a crime against Allah SWT whereas treason is a crime against fellow humans. Believing in Islam is no mans right but Allah SWT right upon us. I absolutely disagree with those who say it is apostasy that is liable to capital punishment. Human justice only applies to humans when you violate a right that belong to a human. If you agree with my explanation then don't go around spreading this again because it would mean you really do it for the argument and not because you need an answer.
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Don't lecture me on that, I am only repeating what I have read other Muslims write (right on this site). So much for muslims not differing about the fundamentals of their religion. Whether God intends it to be punishable by death or not, many who advocate sharia thinks it is. Be that as it may, Muslims societies (culture, pressure, intolerance) make it almost impossible for those born into a Muslim family to convert to anthing different .
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Thank you, Old Man. I am enjoying reading your answers.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
If you think Jesus PBUH as God could not give you an eternal message and it needs to be reformed then you are casting serious doubts about Jesus PBUH being divine or even related to divinity or Gods ability to relate to humans about his existence. Differing interpretations in Islam depend on which level of information you are involved. If you are trying to interpret Allah SWT as differently yes it is discouraged because it polutes the whole doctrine of the religion. If you are trying to interpret things related to punishments, there definitely are varying interpretations however they are not changing the belief about God. Things that change the perception of God are rigid whereas those that deal with conduct mostly is where differing interpretations occur.
Why do you always say we are not encouraged to think? What is it that you don't find us thinking about? There is difference between not thinking and disobeying. I really want to know where you are coming from on this.
I think as far as I am concerned there is no dispute that Prophetic teachings (including Jesus PBUH) orginated from God. The point of difference is that only Muhammad SAW were preserved as is. If the Holy Spirit inpires Christians then the teachings of Jesus PBUH have no consequence. If Jesus PBUH teachings were preserved properly then why would there be disputes in Christianity about the basic doctrine and Trinity of Jesus PBUH. When Islam came there was no dispute about Muhammad SAW position and Oneness of Allah SWT and there is none to date. The true teachings of Jesus PBUH were never propagated in lieu of the Holy Spirit inspiring the disciples, who simply failed to convey the right message. Every Christian who starts affirming Jesus PBUH as the saviour starts saying he is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is not even able to exact its nature with normal human behavior. Where does the good that non-Christians do come from if they are not inspired by the Holy Spirit then?
Not lecturing, if you agee with what I said than can I count on not seeing you arguing about this elsewhere even though you have a proper answer. Apostasy is not a fundamental of Islam. Just like the doctrine of Jesus PBUH and Trinity is abused in Christianity and misinterpreted by so many so is Apostasy in Islam. Apostasy is a trivial and circumstantial issue whereas the things that Christianity is misinterpreting can land you in hell instead of heaven, the gravity of disagreement is much different here. Yes I agree the born muslims are more liable to violence if converting than non-muslims because of this misinterpreted abuse and I do not condone it.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Old Man has already explained it very well that no one is guilty for what Adam did, but we are infected with the virus from birth. Sooner rather than later we will start to sin. Only infants are guiltless. God says in Ezekiel 28:15, "You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you." So we see that an infant is born perfect and without sin until he becomes of an accountable age and then begins to sin.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
If the Holy Spirit inpires Christians then the teachings of Jesus PBUH have no consequence.
The Holy Spirit's inspiration is a reaffirmation of Jesus' teachings.
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Every Christian who starts affirming Jesus PBUH as the saviour starts saying he is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is not even able to exact its nature with normal human behavior. Where does the good that non-Christians do come from if they are not inspired by the Holy Spirit then?
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The HS is the voice of God, that still small voice. However, not everyone who says he is acting according to HS is doing so. Sometimes it's his own ego speaking. A non-Christian can also be influenced by the HS since all of us have been blessed with it.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
What does it teach?
In other words it is called your innate conscience of right and wrong. Its your natural inclination towards knowing right or wrong. How can you distinguish between two people doing the same act of charity for instance, one under the influence of the HS and the other not.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Turn the other cheek. Love people. Do not slander or gossip. Be pure.
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How can you distinguish between two people doing the same act of charity for instance, one under the influence of the HS and the other not.
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If you do charity out of fear or pride, or without feeling, it is from ego. If it is from a compelling urge to love and not take any credit for it, it is from HS.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
YOu are going against your christian faith, MM decide you want to with Old Man or with your wishful thinking. This is a complete opposite views of a doctrine.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
The Old man, seminole and MM waiting for reply in #65.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
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Turn the other cheek. Love people. Do not slander or gossip. Be pure.
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Mahatma Gandhi, Buddha preached the same and Jainism religion the doctrine itself is this. But all this has been explained before this is a repetion. See all your good deeds go off if you dont believe Jesus died on cross, thats you doctrine.
All this each religion does it and in that way Prophet also had all this qualities. So if all this could make, follow a religion then even athiests believe in this and the religion of humanity