Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Society Religion & Philosophy
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This is inspired from the very nice series of threads on Christianity and Islam started by USResident and The Old Man.

I dont want to strictly follow the format of those threads because a) Islam does not have comparable beliefs regarding salvation and original sin (except that original sin as explained by Christianity doesnt exist) b) I want to settle questions I have and I’d appreciate The Old Man answering them.

Here is my understanding of the Christian concept of original sin/salvation:

  1. Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit which revealed their nakedness to them and caused their fall from heaven

  2. Mankind is damned because of this one sin, and no matter how great a person you are and how much you worship God, in the absence of salvation you are a sinner and will go to Hell period. This sin is passed on across from parents to their children by blood. When Christians say “We are all sinners” that is not based on the human predisposition to sinning but that by birth every child that is born is actually a sinner by default.

  3. God approximately 2000 years ago decided to descend to the Earth with the express purpose of dying for mankind in order to save them from this Sin. He removed the sin of Adam from mankind (or that specific part of mankind that accepts that Jesus is God) by dying on the Cross.

  4. Now that Jesus has died on the cross anyone who wants to escape the original sin of Adam and Eve must believe that Jesus is God and he died on the cross for that sin, otherwise he is Hellbound no matter what else he believes and does.

  5. The model for heaven and hell is not do Good get Good as in Islam (Muslims will also go to Hell based on their sins) but more along the lines of accept Jesus and your soul will be transformed and as long as you accept Jesus you will go to Heaven. There is an optimistic view that if you believe in Jesus your actions will automatically tend to be good and good deeds are organic post belief in Jesus as opposed to directed at getting favour with God.

I’d like to know first off if I’ve mischaracterized any of these beliefs, then I will ask my questions.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

In a related question I have also read that Christians believe that belief in Christ can only come after inspiration from God/Holy Spirit (i.e. exogenously) which implies that honest study, logical thought and observation of this world does not make it any more likely to have salvation (whereas Quran stresses that belief can be attained by having an open mind and observing the signs of God in addition to Guidance from Allah). It is also believed that this inspiration is predestined, and that there is nothing you can personally do to influence whether or not this exogenous force stirs belief in Jesus (and thus freedom from original sin) in you.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

ravage, you actually jumped the gun with this thread since it would have been the next and last in the series. Since you have started it, I suppose we can continue with it.

[QUOTE]
In a related question I have also read that Christians believe that belief in Christ can only come after inspiration from God/Holy Spirit (i.e. exogenously) which implies that honest study, logical thought and observation of this world does not make it any more likely to have salvation
[/QUOTE]

Correct. God wants ALL to be saved, but will not grieve for those that do not make the grade. The human can repent and have remorse of his sins committed but can't change his mind/attitude/personality. Only God can do that, and He does it through the New Birth by menas of His Holy Spirit that changes the heart of the person.

There are many theologians and preachers in Christianity that are not saved because they never experienced this New Birth.

[quote]
It is also believed that this inspiration is predestined, and that there is nothing you can personally do to influence whether or not this exogenous force stirs belief in Jesus (and thus freedom from original sin) in you.
[/quote]

Some theologians hold to above doctrine and it was formally formulated at the council of Dort against Arminius. I follow the teaching of Arminius that state man has a free will in the matter of salvation. You choose but God will decide.

Of course, being God Almighty and having full knowledge of past as well as future, God does know who will make the choice of accepting Him as God and Saviour. This is according to me what is meant by predestination whenever it is discussed in the Bible - foreknowledge. Can God change His mind? Christians believe He can and therfor one can petition Him on certain issues, also your salvation.

Those who only believe in predestination as you stated, has NO way of explaining why missionary work is necessary as well as good works after rebirth. It JUST IS NOT LOGIC, and I understand my God as being a VERY logic and easy to understand God.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

The sin was disobedience to God for eating of what was forbidden.

Correct

The decision/prophecy was made when God reprimanded Adam and Eve after their sin was discovered.

The sin is not removed, but cancelled by Jesus’ death.

Rather: “…anyone who wants to escape the penalty awayting ALL mankind…”

The rest is fairly correct.

Your actions will not automatically tend to be good. Every believer must work hard at being good, and often they fail. Good works is a way of showing your appreciation for what Jesus did.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Wouldn’t that mean that all the Prophets :nauz: were born in sin including Isa (Jesus) :as:?

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

All the normal prophets, yes.

As far as I understand, there is no specific major reason in Islam WHY Jesus HAD to be born of a virgin. In Christianity, there is a definite reason.

Jesus was born not of man so that the sin could not be carried over. Jesus’ virgin birth has therefor a VERY high importance in Christianity. If Jesus was NOT born from a virgin, and from the seed of man, Christianity would still be waiting for the Messiah and we would consider Jesus just another prophet same as countless others.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

My Christian friend informed me that they do believe salvation can only happen if you believe in Jesus as Son of God, but its not that simple. You still have to be a good person. But in their eyes, I’d be going to hell no matter how good I am.

They don’t think that you’re born with sin, but that your nature is that to sin. So, from what I understand, you’re born with a blank slate, but a newborn even has the potential of sinning in them. My friend says that is why kids are so horrible. :rolleyes: Whereas we muslims believe that you have the potential to sin and be responsible for those sins when you hit puberty. But we don’t believe its man’s inherent nature. Rather, the predisposition to do evil is there just as much as the predisposition to do good…so its not really a predisposition, but just what choices you make. Like I am a nice person, but I’ve made some bad choices in my life. I could have made good ones, but I didn’t. Not because my nature is evil, but because I actively chose to do wrong knowing I was doing wrong. Get the difference?

BTW, everytime I speak to a Christian, I hear something different. And there will be differences whether you talk to a Catholic or a Baptist or a Protestant, etc etc.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Wrong. There is a reason for the virgin birth in Islam. That its simply God's miracle. Everyone keeps asking for signs from God, and so He gave you a sign. Take it to mean what you'd like. To me, it simply means there is a God, because only God can defy the very basics of science. Because He created science.

aaj kal..
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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

***And Jesus(ES) was noth the first virgin birth, Eve was born from Adams side, Eve had no Mother! So Allah made it happen just like Eesa(ES)…:halo: ***

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Apologies, I actually remember asking permission about opening a thread on this a while back in another thread, perhaps you dont remember.

Man cant change his mind/attitude but he can petition God to change his mind, but if he cant change his mind why would he petition God to change it? on what basis will God reject such a petition? For example why would a Muslim pray to God to help him accept jesus when he cant believe in Jesus being son of God unless God inspires him?

What is the purpose of this life if your actions do not matter and your belief comes and goes exogenously?

Why is their sin carried over to me? I have nothing to do with Adam or Eve’s actions. Is a sin not something you’ve actively/passively engaged in that goes against Allah’s commands? Convince me that eating of what was forbidden is a sin I am responsible for.

Why is it that just as the doctrine of a Trinity goes against the previous ideas of an indivisible single entity of God that there is also no notion in judaism of original sin and people being sinners by default unless they believe in the Trinity and its actions (saving mankind by dying)

Why would a sin carried on by man from generation to generation be redeemed by God coming to earth and being stabbed in the back by his followers and being killed painfully by men?

Gods act of inflicting a painful death on himself seems completely unrelated to Adam’s intial disobedience, and there seems no rationale for the act itself (not the motivation of redemption) except for the sake of it happening.

Okay but suppose you appreciate what Jesus did but dont believe in the Christian lifestyle, or have a different view about what is religiously right or wrong. there are many branches of your faith. would all such people who appreciate jesus’s death be okay?

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Eve and Adam was not “born” because they were created/made as adults!

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

The standard Christian response you will get.

There are three ways you can be saved, though. Most Christians will disagree with me here but here is the three possibilities:

  1. You accept Jesus Christ as Saviour and afterwards live a righteous and good live as guided by the Holy Spirit and taught by the Bible. Anyone knowing about Jesus’ sacrifice and NOT choosing him to be savior, will be judged according to the Law of God. This is the only “easy” way of attaining salvation. You will still be judged according to the works you have done as an indication how earnest you were with your acceptance of Jesus as Saviour.

  2. You decide to keep the Law of God. Problem is that no human can fulfil all the Law requires. Even missing the smallest part of the Law makes you guilty of transgressing the whole Law as God requires 100% or you fail. All those wanting to be saved by keeping the Law, therefor logically fail to keep the Law and are therefor condemned. God will be Judge in the final end.

  3. You can also be judged by God according to your conscience and righteous live when you do not know about Jesus or the Law of God. Problem with this is that the person will be working blind and the chance of failing is very large. God will be the final Judge.

Everyone is “infected” with sin. Even a newborn baby therefor is not pure.

Normally there might be differences but on Sin and Salvation there is a general concensus among all denominations.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Maybe :slight_smile:

Obviously it was a miracle. My point though is that Islam has no other reason why this prophet should be born different than other prophets. In having a virgin birth, it sort of makes Jesus (in a non-Muslim’s eyes), just a little more special than the prophet Muhammad. I would for instance have rather expected the prophet Muhammad to be born of a virgin because he was the last prophet which dictated the Alpha and Omega of scriptures, the Qur’an, according to Islam.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

Jesus did not have a father, but he did have a mother…
and that mother was human…
and like all other children of Adam, she too carried that “sin” with her…
then why does Jesus escape from that “sin”???
he too was an offspiring of Mary, who bore that “sin”…

remember that a baby is not born just from the seed of a man, but rather of a union of a man and a woman…
so even if u remove one part, u still have that woman carrying the “sin” contributing to Jesus’ birth…

so if u think Jesus is saved from the “sin” u r wrong…
he cud be diluted, but definitely not free from it…

btw, in Islam we do not consider anyone to be responible for others’ actions or sins…
Adam (as) and Eve (as) did not adhere to Allah’s command and they repented and were forgiven…
and if any punishment is due, its due upon them, and not anyone else…

do u in christianity, punish someone because his father committed a crime???
if not, then why do u think God wud be so unfair as to act in such an unjust way???

and the reason Islam gives us for the birth of Isa (as) from a virgin mother, is to show the Sign of His Power to the people…
who anyhow rejected this birth…
but the purpose was to make it a miracle, for men to believe in the Almighty…

that Gos wud have a child and god wud be born and wud die is all very close to the greek and roman mythology where gods r busy with such ‘human’ activities…
perhaps the romans influenced this on to christianity…
its defnitely against the abrahamic faiths’ teaching of One God…

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

No big deal.

My mistake. Man CAN change his mind/attitude/handlings. What I meant is that man can’t change his inherent personality and traits.

Sure one can do it. That is part of salvation. One needs to ask God to change him from the inside, on the spiritual level. This change can only be done by the Holy Spirit, being part of God.

If one is earnest in seeking God Almighty’s grace, and one is teachable/pliable, God will send the Holy Spirit to take it up further with the person. No missionary or Christian can change a person’s faith. One can make a follower but only God can make a diciple.

The purpose of this life is to please God Almighty, and no teaching, person, religion, law, etc.

You are the offspring of Adam and Eve and carry their genes in you. You ARE bonded to them no matter what you want/do. Because of their sinning by making the worng choice, they allowed the seed of sin to enter mankind and now all of mankind is infected by it.

Judaism DOES believe and teach original sin.

Lev.17v11- For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

Rom.3v20-25- Therefor no-one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that came by Christi Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonemnet, through faith in his blood.

Sin can only be washed or covered by the shedding of blood. That is what God as per the Old and the New Testament ordained. In the Olt Testament, sacrifices had to be made over and over again. With Jesus’ sacrifice, it was done once for all time (Hebrews 10). By Jesus’ cruel death, he took all our troubles, hurt, infirmities, sorrows on him (Isa.53).

You can only “appreciate” Jesus’ death by taking him as your Saviour.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

different prophets had different miracles…

does saving Noah (as) on a boat and drowning thos who disbelieved in him make him better than Muhammad (saw) because those who disbelieved in Muhammad (saw) were not drowned???

or does giving Solomon (as) the kindgom of the whole world and giving him riches and armies make him better than Muhammad (saw) because Muhammad (saw) led more than half of his prophetic life in a depressed condition with a city full of enemies (sometimes even in boycott) and then almost the rest of his life in exile from his own city???

no, those r different signs…

Quran 2:253
*Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah’s Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving… *

aaj kal..
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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

No-one had sex with Mary up to that point. Jesus was not from one of Mary’s cells. A fertilised egg was planted/created inside Mary making her only a surrogate. No chance for any of what you say above.

You miss the point. You are not punished/guilty because you sin, you are punished/guilty because you are infected by a sinful nature.

For example, assume that all of mankind was infected by the Aids virus. One way of dealing with the epidemic is to exterminate all mankind. BUT, say there is an anti-virus in the blood of God. God provides a bank of needles with His blood and it is up to everyone to inject himself in order to rid him of the Aids virus. It is there for free but everyones own responsibility to take the necessary action. Now replace “the Aids virus” with “a sinful nature” in above analogy…

Why then would the Old Testament, writen before the ascencion of the Greeks or Romans mentions God’s Son? See eg. Ps.2v7,12; Isa.9v5; Dan.7v13-14; etc.

Anyway, the offspring of the Greek and Roman gods were separate people. The Son of God is just a terminology to indate that Jesus is a part from God and not His physical offspring (the mistake the prophet Muhammad also made - not trying to blaspheme).

A Love Story©
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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin


There is a reason in ISLAM that jesus had to be born of a virgin.
ALLAH has to show all human kind how humans are born in different forms.There are four kinds of ways
a) man was born with clay ALLAH MADE it
b)human being was born from a man without the help of a female (EVE was born this way)
c)human beings were born with natural process with the help of male and female
d)and now there was only one left man born of a virgin if it didn't happen all the humanity would be asking so ALLAH showed every thing and completed everything and showed the world everything is possible its just miracles of ALLAH that jesus was born from a virgin.

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

does bible say that as well???
i always thought that even bible agreed that Jesus is son of Mary…

and sorry, that aids virus analogy is simply not applicable to this…
human has not developed this sinning nature, he was born that way…
he has the tendency to sin and that is why we are here, to see how many of us will fight that urge to sin and keep us away from it, and instead do good deeds…

its not something that Adam (as) developed and his progeny took up…
its something that God put in all humans, to test them…

and if Jesus was neither from a human father nor a mother, then why shud he be sacrificed for our sins???
or do u think God made a mistake (naoozubillah) by putting that sin into man and then to make up for that mistake he sacrificed his own son???

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Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin

OldMan, I think that is a little far fetched now. It is clearly stated by you that all humanity is born sinful, so naturally Mary was born a sinner as well. And so would her offspring. A surrogate comes from a mans eggs and it conjoins with a womans eggs for birth to take place. The birth of Jesus PBUH though miraculous was still a biological birth. 2000 years ago no one could possibly tell how Mary was fertilized. That is fantasy to counter the argument. If any one could be called sinless based on this argument then it would have to be Adam, who was not concieved biologically as humans are and niether Eve.