Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
^ That comment doesn't help in discussion. Why don't you rather go to philosophy forum or religion forum?
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
Heres what i have found thus far.
Koran prescribes as My dear friend Socrates has said that flogging is the method of punishment for adultery. Flogging to death is easy for biblical law which is still applicable to Muslims unless revoked by Quran says that 40 lashes will kill a man thus the adulterers are commonly sentenced a hundred lashes to make sure :D
As for people debunking th Hadees as man made books, the fact is heres my take on Islam i wouldn't have believed in the faith had it not been for messengers like Rasool Allah and thus in my mentality the messenger is as important as the message.
If Allah's Rasool and those blessed individuals who were closest to him conducted Sangsaar i:e stoning to death which is an authenticated punishment method according to Hadees then thats the way it should be.
Simple.
It's the law besides flogging or stoning the result will be the same. Barbaric or not its our way.
So the others can say what they like... Islam doesn't need to worry about it's image nor do those who follow it.
We have our beliefs and they are unshakable.
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
" We have our beliefs and they are unshakable. " - That is never a good attitude. Muslim countries will never catch up to the rest if this attitude stays. What doesnt make sense.. doesnt make sense. Don't try to make sense of it only because you want to make sense of it.
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
Whatever… I would rather be dead than see my beliefs changed. And anyone that wants to change them better be ready to use force… i am among those who are notoriusly hard to kill.
Those who change for the sake of change are the ones with the problem.
What you say is your opinion and i have stated mine.
Good day to you sir :aliyish:
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
"Those who change for the sake of change are the ones with the problem."
Who is changing for the sake of change? Over the last 1500 yrs society has automatically changed and advanced and today most people think stoning to death for cheating on your partner is horrible horrible inhumane punishment. It's you that are refusing to change for the sake of sticking to your beliefs and rules from the middle ages.
I do respect your respect of my opinion though !
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
[QUOTE]
Who is changing for the sake of change? Over the last 1500 yrs society has automatically changed and advanced
[/QUOTE]
I doubt the change was ever automatic.
Cultures and beliefs no matter how strange i have always respected so long as they dont harm others beliefs. I am tolerant of others and despite what many think Tribal people are not idiots.
I accept our ways are backward and my ancestors were among the most barbaric of humans but Islam changed us... for better or worse it's what we stick by now... in fact we were always beleivers of one God we just were not very clear in our beliefs.
But for the last millenium we have not changed, and the world is most strange.
In my extensive travels i have yet to come across a tribal who wishes to openly change or give up his ways... i'm not saying there are not a few out there doubtless there must be some.
But every tribe i have lived among has been fiercely conservative... and thats why they survive to this day.
Besides there are many in todays world who know nothing about the lifestyle we live and those who do wish to have something of the love and community spirit we have in our huts and tents, despite living in metropolises the world over.
Basically even if we were wiped out tommorow, centuries from now people will look back and say we were magnificent... i doubt many modern lifestyles will be able to make such a boast even a few decades from now.
How materialistic is the rest of the world, it gets through so much junk.
But look at the simple lives of tribals they have nothing like your comforts yet they thrive... in thier own endevaours
Anyway this is a whole different thing.
As far as beliefs are concerned those that resist change are the ones history misses most.
Those that just give in to anything for the sake of change are seldom remmbered.
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
Faris. you seem to be more concerned about how much people will remember your tribal lifestyle.. than whats right and whats wrong and whats just inhumane!!!!
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
When you live on the edge of life my friend you will quickly learn to throw your conceptions of whats humane and whats right and wrong to one side.
Survival comes before all else...
You have to pull through with as much as you value still intact. Your taught your values at an early age and you learn quickly what values work best and which dont.
Once you have that sorted in your mind and heart your sorted.
What may seem like a barbaric execution has for centuries been a quick and easy solution which keeps the rest from jeopardizing the beliefs and values your people hold.
I am among people who value life no one wants to kill purely for fun... at least i hope not but when survival of your beliefs is at stake any threat must meet the harshest punishment.
Like i said before on many occasions and many other will testify i would gladly stop the rot right when it starts. If my own son were to commit a crime against the laws of man... say steal? I woulc be compelled to hand him over so why let my emotions stand in the way of my belief and my God.
I would happily hack off my own sons head for a transgression he did on purpose... if for example despite all i had taugth him he was to go out and rape a woman god forbid... i would be the one who personally sees him punished.
Justice works in this simple way... and if i had commited a transgression i would expect death just as mercilessly.
For centuries it's worked a sa perfect detterent and as a symbol of true justice.
In the dark days of Pakistan and Indias partition my own fammily saw such an act of justice played before it's eyes and both friend and foe commended it.
When you have to serve justice you should not shirk or be sqeamish but should act on what is layed down and upon a lot of good judgement.
People simply look at the punishment and become horrified they are not the ones who are in any way affected by the rot in thier society.
I ask you friend how would you feel if your sister for example was raped by a Muslim who was related to me and i worked quickly and killed the Muslim even if hewere my own blood?
Okay maybe you would say i was a barbarian but fact is you could not say i did not act wrongly... for among many humans what i did was serve justice in it's purest form.
If someon wrecks someone elses life or threatens the whole community with thier transgression then what right have they to live?
Particularly if that transgression were done deliberately.
Humans make mistakes but those who make the mistake on purpose should be met with the same reaction.
Afterall if you couldn't be bothered to follow the law it's your own fault for losing your life.... you should have known better.
That is a simple look on life and one which you may call barbaric or whatever but one which i have no regrets about.
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
Faris.. I am not saying that criminals should not be punished.. We are not talking about Rape here.. that deserves a very harsh punishment.. no doubt.. but does Adultery? Stoning to death for Adultery.. is what I'm saying is barbaric... not punishing criminals..
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
But you dont get it 
In Islam adultery is a crime… if you dont mind crime being punished then i assume you agree it has to be punished right?
Be it stoning to death… which personally i find messy and long drawn out but neverthelsee accept is a valid punishment method and is the prescribed method… according to my faith… in any case it doesn’t matter wether the guilty is stoned to death or chopped by sword or shot or electrocuted it’s a crime which has to be punished by death Okay.
Whats your exact objection the crime? Or the method.
Big problem i have with this is that Adultery in Islam is considered immoral and criminal act if proven… for a start why commit adultery and let it be known? Surely the criminal here wants to destabalise society and therfore must be killed… if i was to go round toting my gun i too would be shot as a criminal becuase i was toting my gun… however if i used it in a lawfull manner or poached and wasn’t caught or was caught but did not pose a risk to society then i could be pardonned or prisoned.
If you commit a crime openly expect to be treated and killed openly. Simple.
Islam is not the faith for adultery if you commit it and let it be known then expect death.
That said many muslims commit adultery and go unpunished or are pardonned or whatever thats something i dont agree with but when someon commits adultery and brazenly shows off then they have a deathwish.
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
"Surely the criminal here wants to destabalise society and therfore must be killed" <-- that's my problem.. not all criminals.. should be KILLED.. they should be punished yet.. but killed?
1) I just dont think Adultery is as serious as a crime as Murder ... it doesnt deserves death...
2) For any crime if death is the deserved punishment.. stoning to death is barbaric..
3) We shouldnt resist change (like stop believing adultery deserves stoning to death) just because thats how it was 1500 yrs ago..
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
Points taken but resistance to change i guess is the one thing i cannot afford.
Adultery is a serious crime when it's done to destabalise the community, when thats the case it's worse than murder.
Your second point is interesting becuase personally i agree it's hardly the most cleanest of methods... however thats the prescribed method and it is also better as a deterent for if the person knows thier death will be slow and painfull and very public they are a lot less likely to do it arent they?
As you can see i am not entirely the barbarian that many would dismiss me as... i am a man who is burdened with a strong sense of duty and my faith, my beliefs and my people come first in everything...
Its a mentality hard to explain but it's not gonna change.
You might never understand this which i am okay with. But you have to understand that this is a grim aspect of our people and it should not blot our other ways which are great as well... nothing is perfect.
But beliefs are beliefs right or wrong.... so long as they dont threaten the beliefs of others.
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
"Adultery is a serious crime when it's done to destabalise the community, when thats the case it's worse than murder."
Mere bhai when is adultery committed with the sole intention to DESTABLIZE THE COMMUNITY? It's either unhappiness with current relationship.. or just a tendency to cheat.. etc etc etc.. can be many reasons.. but I honestly dont think "intending to destablize a community"is the motivation behind cheating on your partner..
I guess the resistance to change comes from a strong and blind faith in religious rules and regulations.. that's a different issue..
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
^ No not entirely in the west it's not so much that way but back home it's a tool of the modernists and many a woman will try and lure a man onto the wrong path and many a man will lure a woman... but not as long as the rules and laws stop them in thier tracks and if they break the law then the law will break them simple :D
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
Totally agree with @Faris Udeen:
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
^ Thankyou :aliyish:
At least some still value thier beliefs and traditions and will not let them be changed.
I keep hearing people telling me and my people to change?
Let me say this… in the last century and a little before that the British stormed across the world and took Hindustan with relative ease (after beating the last real Muslim resistance)
Thank Allah they never took my homeland and of that i’m proud.
But in villages and towns thirty miles south of us the Sirkaree governemnt of the British issued orders and dealt with the affairs of state in English… They ruled most of Hindustan for 100 years and not once did they change thier own ways…
So if the British did not change thier ways when they ruled us… why should we change our ways when we live free from rule and in fact have the power to rule ourselves?
Surely those that ruled Hindustan did not change so why should we give up our values and beliefs?
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
I am not asking you to give up all your values and traditions. I am only saying that you should look at them from an open mind. If something is wrong - change it!!! Don't stick to it only because they are your values and age old rules. If they are inhumane.. they are inhumane.
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
well thats the point .. since in some other thread some guys were talkng about that people take islam the way they want to i.e. everyone has their own personalized/customized meaning of things. Some even claim that they there hsould be new INTERPRETATION of islamic ways of life. since they believe islam was spread 1400 years ago which is so old compared to today's world.
I argue on the thing that islam is from Allah who knows every single thng from Start to End and thats why islam does not need any change. its perfect.
Its the shria which makes saudia stands among one of the countries which has very low crime rate. but todays' brain washed secular burger people believe in islam the way some human rights NGO's want 'em to believe, the way MEDIA want 'em to see.
You are incredibly out of touch with reality. Rape is a crime of pure violence with the intent to destroy a person’s bodily integrity, their ego, their sense of safety, and their soul. Adultery is consensual, and adulterers do not go rape because they can’t find a person to get busy with otherwise. There are many reasons people commit adultery, and it’s not for you to judge as to why they do it-- because you do not know.
You think that flogging and stoning are beautiful? So you liken mutilation, blood, screaming, cheering, and violence with lets say… a new born baby? They’re both beautiful, right? If you ask me, you’re a very sick person. What kind of society are you seeking to raise when you glorify and celebrate KILLING people in public. Are you one to raise your hand against a person who cannot defend themselves? What has made you so sick as to find beauty in causing death?
Re: Son pleads for help as mother awaits stoning in Iran
Noor has it right. If it's inhumane.. its inhumane.. dont justify it just because of religion..
as t1000 says.. "I argue on the thing that islam is from Allah who knows every single thng from Start to End and thats why islam does not need any change. its perfect.".... this thinking shuts off your mind..it basically says "stfu and follow it like it is.. even if it doent make sense.. even if its inhumane and disgusting.. just do it.. stfu.. and do it"