Based on what my Ahmedi friend told me I believe they are muslims.. That is ** IF ** without any shadow of a doubt ** IF ** they believe in our prophet as the last prophet and don't make any claims that even slightly contradict that.
Any violation of the above then non muslims.
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According to what you have said narrate a hadith or Quranic verse implying to that..
Im as Ahmadi Delcare I believe in Hazret Mohammed (saw) and love him. He is my lord my master my beloved...
Hazret Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) has said..
Wo paishwa hamara jis se hey nooor saara
Naam Oska hey Mohammad (saw) dilber mera yeh hee hey
Sub paak hain paighamber ik doosre se behter
laik az Khudae barter khairul Wara Yeh hee hey
Wo aaj shahe deen hey wo taaje mursaleen hey
Wo tayyebo Ameen hey Oski sana yeh hey
Subka wo hee sahara Rehmat hey aashkara
WO HEY MEY CHEEZ KIA HOON bus faisla yeh hey
look such a lovely saying and still you point finger on him who is the most lover of Hazret Mohammed (saw).
Another excerpt from the writings of the Promised Messiah, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian. He wrote about Holy Prophet(Peace be upon him):
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The man who in his being and his attributes and his actions and through his spiritual and holy faculties set an example of perfection, in knowledge and action and in sincerity and steadfastness, and was called the perfect man was Muhammad, peace be on him.... The man who was most perfect as man and as Prophet, and came with full blessings, and who through a spiritual revival and resurrection manifested the first judgment in the world and revived the dead world, that blessed Prophet, the Seal of the Prophets, the leader of the righteous ones, the pride of the Prophets, was Muhammad, the chosen one, peace be on him. Our Lord, send down on that beloved Prophet that mercy and blessing that Thou hast not sent down on anyone since the beginning of the world. Had that grand Prophet not appeared in the world then we would have no proof of the truth of lesser Prophets like Jonah, Job, Jesus son of Mary, Malachi, John, Zakaria, etc. Though they were favourites and honoured and were beloved ones of Almighty God, they are under obligation to this Prophet that they were accepted in the world as true Prophets. O Allah, send down Thy blessings on him and on his people and on his companions, all of them. Our last word is that all praise belongs to Allah, Lord of the worlds [Itmamul Hujjah, (Lahore, Gulzar Muhammadi Press, 1311 A.H); Now printed in Ruhani Khazain (London, 1984), Vol. 8, p. 36].
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although I'm sure our Ahmadi friends would say they do accept the Prophet as their judge; and they even interpret this statement, like the Sunnis and Shias, to believing in a corpse of literature as prophetic sayings, the matter doesn't even need to come to this.
Even if there is an argument on the Ahmadi approach to taking the Prophet as a judge for their matters.. they remain Muslim or Submitters
Afterall, even Christian and Jews and all have been given this clear and final judgement by Allah:
[2:62] Surely those who have faith, and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Saabyeen; *any one of them who has faith in God and the last day, and does good work, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve. *
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*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
We're not going to start a Qur'an alone or hadith discussion in here.
The main questions now to Ahmadis is:
Do Ahmadis take Prophet Muhammad as their 'judge'?
and to Sunnis and Shias is:
If the Ahmadis say they accept Prophet Muhammad as their 'judge' for all matters .. would they still be non-Muslims??
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PA, i have just quoted a single inconsistency, there are hundreds others and for that you will have to refer to the work of a scholar who has studied this in depth. Another example would be that Prophet muhammad sallalahu aleyhe wasallam is considered a mercy to all mankind and is not restricted to a certain era. Another would be that Islam WAS COMPLETED IN ITS ENTIRETY. Hence if another nabi came (with relevations) it would mean he is adding something on. (if he isn't, then whats the need for these new relevations????)
You know PA for a very long time I did not know the difference between Sunnis, Shiites, Ahmedis and the life was good in every part of the world. I use to go to any mosque shiita or sunni and could never tell much difference. But hey this is ugly if you ask me and now I am getting the picture as to why western countries have kept religion behind the walls.
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*Originally posted by waleed: *
ammar beta plz most the meaning of the first kalma to PA uncle so that he knows the difference between a 'judge' and a prophet
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waleed puttar... jiss baat ka pata na hoa.. uss baray bolay matee.. .. just lumping arabic sentences together doesn't make it revealed text or a commandment.
Abdali, i hear ya man.. which is the very reason I am bothered by this hatred towards Ahmadis.. i mean hate Shias too then.. and vice versa for Sunnis. don't single Ahmadis out cuz they are weaker in number and you can bully them.
waleed puttar... jiss baat ka pata na hoa.. uss baray bolay matee.. .. just lumping arabic sentences together doesn't make it revealed text or a commandment.
Abdali, i hear ya man.. which is the very reason I am bothered by this hatred towards Ahmadis.. i mean hate Shias too then.. and vice versa for Sunnis. don't single Ahmadis out cuz they are weaker in number and you can bully them.
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so uncel je u telling me quran is lumping arabic text which doesnt reveal anything to u ... oh dear
PS uncle if u want a judge just ask me to be one or u want me to get a law degree first?
fatehahmed, your posts show nothing in regards to his "last" being. no one is saying that MGA badmouthed about Prophet Mohammed PBUH except for contradiciting his words about "last" being.
I think we are running in circles? The term about the Holy Prophet being the 'Last' prophet has already been answered.
I am kind of confused about your belief! It would be a realy nice if you can answer some of my simple questions, so that we can go ahead from there.
Do you consider Holy Prophet to be the last prophet in every sense of word? Meaning that not even an ummati Nabi can't come
Do you believe Jesus to be alive or dead?
Do you believe in the second coming of Christ?
Do you believe in the advent of Imam Mehdi?
Do you believe that Jesus in his second coming would not be a prophet? Would the status of prophethood be taken away from him?
Do you believe that Imam Mehdi and the Messiah would be the same person or two different ones?
Do you believe that at the day of ressurection, the status of Prophethood be given back to Jesus?
Now Here are my belief:
Holy Prophet is the last law bearing prohet! He is KhattimUlAnbiyya! Holy Quran is the final law-bearing book. An ummati Nabi following the Holy Quran and Holy Prophet can come to reform Muslim Ummah.
Jesus is dead like all the other prophets of God.
I believe in second coming of Christ but as Jesus is already dead, he can't come back. Somebody similar to him in spiritual sense would come but would be an ummati nabi and would not change a word of Quran.
I believe in the adven of Imam Mehdi
I believe Imam Mehdi and Messiah to be the same person as evident from Ahadith.
**Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
...I think we are running in circles? The term about the Holy Prophet being the 'Last' prophet has already been answered.*
I don't know when you answered that, but your earlier posts were meaningless (from discussion's point).
....
1. Do you consider Holy Prophet to be the last prophet in every sense of word? Meaning that not even an ummati Nabi can't come
Yes
2. Do you believe Jesus to be alive or dead?
Alive.
3. Do you believe in the second coming of Christ?
Yes. (I don't think that it counts towards determining my "Muslim" or non-Muslim being)
4. Do you believe in the advent of Imam Mehdi?
Yes. (this one really does not count at all whether u a Muslim or not)
5. Do you believe that Jesus in his second coming would not be a prophet? Would the status of prophethood be taken away from him?
As per ahadith, he will be follower of Prophet Mohammed PBUH (will carry no changes).
6. Do you believe that Imam Mehdi and the Messiah would be the same person or two different ones?
Most of ahadith point at them being different ones.
7. Do you believe that at the day of ressurection, the status of Prophethood be given back to Jesus?
He will stay as a follower in this world, but when he goes back I'm sure he will be a prophet.
According to your reply to my questions, You are implying that a prophet can't be a follower of the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him).
You wrote
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As per ahadith, he will be follower of Prophet Mohammed PBUH (will carry no changes).
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Another thing that can be deduced from your statement is that every prophet have to bring some change to privously present Law.
Am I correct in asserting the above two points or correct me if I am wrong!
Everybody know that Hazrat Musa and Hazrat Haroon were both prophets of God sent to the people of Bani Israel. Hazrat Musa at the time was law bearing prophet but Hazrat Haroon was not!. He was just the follower of Hazrat Musa.
Jesus AS was also a prophet sent to the people of Bani Israel. He also was not a law bearing prophet.
and the discussion comes back to square one that one doesn't exit the fold of Islam for interpreting or believing in different hadiths.. cuz if that were the case, both Sunnis and Shias should be at odds, and outside the fold of Islam.
MGA was kaafir as most of his predictions proved to be lies. And no prophet died in a filthy state of dierhea all over the bed.
Do you need anymore proof?
And yes his followers are non-muslims too if they believe in him being any of the following which he claimed.
Promised Massiah
Mehdi
Jesus
Prophet Mohammed PBUH
God himself
His books and monthly Ahmedi magzines of that time are filled with the evidence.
It doesn't take a million people to find out that the opimum addicted man born in Qadiyan was zindiq and kaafir.