Something that always bothers me..

Society Religion & Philosophy
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In Pakistan, why are Sunnis and Shias Muslims and Ahmadis are not??

Aren’t Shia beliefs radically different than the Sunni beliefs; they hold little regard for close companions of the Prophet even his wife, claim a different line of ‘Imams’ . interpret many Qur’anic verses their own way and have a different version of a common history.. yet, they are Muslims.

Sunnis have several divisions some of which elevate ordinary people to the level of Saints, make their tombs a place of prayer, openly pray to them or them as intercessor and more.. yet.. they are Muslims.

Ahmadis disagree with the interpretation of some verses in the Qur’an … accept the Prophet as being the last law bearing prophet, accept the same history as most Sunnis .. their general islamic beliefs are probably closer to that of Sunni Imam Abu Hanifa, (Ahmadis are welcome to correct this statement of mine) and they also believe in the same set of hadiths.. more or less.. yet.. they are declared non-Muslims.

Is it really because of their small number and that they could be oppressed by the majority?? If there were more Ahmadis in Pakistan than Sunnis or Shias, would Sunnis or Shias be declared non-Muslim??

2

shiaas, for one, believe in the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh)....
and, leave aside the common practics, shiaas believes dont differ much in fundamentals from the sunnis....
ahmadis, they r no where near....

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[QUOTE]
Is it really because of their small number and that they could be oppressed by the majority?? If there were more Ahmadis in Pakistan than Sunnis or Shias, would Sunnis or Shias be declared non-Muslim??
[/QUOTE]

Do Ahmadis call themselves muslims?? or Ahmadis?
It doesnt mean if theyre a minority, theyre oppressed.

4

in all this dicsussion, let us plz remember ahmadis r NOT MUSLIMS just as christians, jews, hindus etc etc r not muslims....

i see many americans (i dont know christians or jews) keep names such as ali, jalil, omar, abdul (these r some of the few i know of by myself), shall we let them call themselves muslims too????

oppressed is a very wrong word to be used....
i hold a pakistani pasport, and wish to be called american, but no one wud agree to that....
am i oppressed????

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Re: Something that always bothers me..

**Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
In Pakistan, why are Sunnis and Shias Muslims and Ahmadis are not??
*
Simply because they believe MGA as a prophet.

Aren't Shia beliefs radically different than the Sunni beliefs; they hold little regard for close companions of the Prophet even his wife, claim a different line of 'Imams' . interpret many Qur'anic verses their own way and have a different version of a common history.. yet, they are Muslims.

Little or no regard for companion is one big thing which repels Sunnis away from Shias. On a smaller level, many Shia mullahs do consider Sunnis as kafir while many Sunni mullahs consider Shias as kafir. "Govt of Pakistan" can not regard Sunni or Shia as kafir, as it is unable to deal with the pressure from either Iran or Saudi Arabia, therefore this issue can never be discussed at parliament level.

Sunnis have several divisions some of which elevate ordinary people to the level of Saints, make their tombs a place of prayer, openly pray to them or them as intercessor and more.. yet.. they are Muslims.

Most of such people are from "Brelvi" sub-divide, thats one reason many mullahs consider "Kafir kafir Brelvi kafir" and then in response "kafir kafir wahabi (non-brelvi Sunni) kafir".

....(Ahmadis are welcome to correct this statement of mine) and they also believe in the same set of hadiths.. more or less.. yet.. they are declared non-Muslims.

The reason could be that MGA was also a "Sunni" before declaring prophethood, therefore he held all "Sunni" sources as valid and true.

Is it really because of their small number and that they could be oppressed by the majority?? If there were more Ahmadis in Pakistan than Sunnis or Shias, would Sunnis or Shias be declared non-Muslim?

Yes, when you have majority how can you be oppressed? Other than Saddam's example, I don't find other examples. Lets keep Saddam discussion out of this thread.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
in all this dicsussion, let us plz remember ahmadis r NOT MUSLIMS just as christians, jews, hindus etc etc r not muslims....

i see many americans (i dont know christians or jews) keep names such as ali, jalil, omar, abdul (these r some of the few i know of by myself), shall we let them call themselves muslims too????

oppressed is a very wrong word to be used....
i hold a pakistani pasport, and wish to be called american, but no one wud agree to that....
am i oppressed????
[/QUOTE]

why goverment should force people to say ahmadis are not muslims
when they apply for pakistan passport. i may be wrong exact words
used in pakistan passport application.

other question are they allowed to visit mecca since they are declared
non-muslims.

7

^
non-muslims r not allowed to enter mecca....
no matter what they call themselves....

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so i'd like to know who has the authority in Islam to declare anybody else non-Muslim??

where do we draw the line.. believing in someone to be a promised Messiah rules them a non-Muslim, but Shias have their own Mehdi in hiding.. yet they are Muslims?

Where does it say in the Qur'an that you become a non-Muslim by believing in a promised Messiah,.. cuz as I understand it Sunnis, Shias and Ahmadis alike believe in such a personality coming to the Muslims rescue.. only Ahmadi's claim he's already arrived.

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**Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
so i'd like to know who has the authority in Islam to declare anybody else non-Muslim??*

Its a good question. Ideally "Islamic State" or one of its authorized institution should be the one to debate/declare on who is and who is not Muslim for the purpose of conducting its business (marriages, justice etc.).

where do we draw the line.. believing in someone to be a promised Messiah rules them a non-Muslim, but Shias have their own Mehdi in hiding.. yet they are Muslims?

If anyone considers Shias as "non-Muslims" its not because they have their own Mehdi, but because of other alleged beliefs.

*Where does it say in the Qur'an that you become a non-Muslim by believing in a promised Messiah,.. cuz as I understand it Sunnis, Shias and Ahmadis alike believe in such a personality coming to the Muslims rescue.. only Ahmadi's claim he's already arrived. *

Again, believing in someone as "Messiah" is not the issue, but "Prophethood". Sunnis and Shias alike, believe that there cannot be any other "prophet" while MGA declared prophethood so him and his followers are declared non-Muslims by both of them.

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**Changez **bhai,

You should start another thread by defining a Prophet, what are his characteristics and what are not. And how you believe that the Messiah to come will not be a prophet?

In other words, will your Messiah/Mehdi not be appointed by Allah or will he claim to be the one just because he thinks he is the right man for the job? Will he not be devinely guided or will he just be another leader? etc. What you need to address in that thread is how your Messiah is still all that a prophet is but yet not a prophet himself.

PA yar,

You ask too many questions, make it simple & one question at a time, maybe the discussion will go somewhere.

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Oh and declaring someone a kafir is different from declaring someone a non-Muslim.

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but declaring a person who does not believe in the fundamentals of Islam as a non-muslim, does not need any divine book or any very high level of religious knowledge....

its common sense, i think....

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and yes, an ahmedi maybe termed as kaafir....

ghulam ahmed qadyani was definitely a kafir....

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***Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
Changez bhai,

You should start another thread by defining a Prophet, what are his characteristics and what are not. And how you believe that the Messiah to come will not be a prophet? ...**

Amadjee, I am not judging here who is what. I just presented the facts of Pakistan/Shias/Sunnis/Ahmedis. If you want to debate about those issues, please do so, I may or may not participate.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
but declaring a person who does not believe in the fundamentals of Islam as a non-muslim, does not need any divine book or any very high level of religious knowledge....

its common sense, i think....
[/QUOTE]

To which fundamental of Islam are you referring?? I think Ahmadi's believe in Prophet Muhammad.

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If the fundamental of being called a muslim is "there is no possibility of any prophet, whatsoever after Prophet Muhammad SAW" then sunnis become kafir too.
Afterall they are waiting for an Ummati Jesus who is going to recive revelations and will be a prophet.

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Re: Re: Something that always bothers me..

oops

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What about Ismailis? why are they considered Non-Muslims?

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:rolleyes: do you have correct information?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CurruptAngel: *
What about Ismailis? why are they considered Non-Muslims?
[/QUOTE]

i am not sure but it was discussed in a thread previously, and i think it was a pretty good reason....