[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
The truth of a prophetic hadith can be measured by its coming true..
Here i quote a hadith with not many Asnad, which is not from Sahah sittah and not widely know...
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I don't want isnaad because its a fetish of mine, it will be used to verify that the Hadith is true and is not fabricated.
Please stick to An-Najam-us-Saqib and provice the isnaad of the Hadith you cited - this will then proove that Mirza is indeed Mahdi.
Request to ALL
This thread is NOT about comparing whose hadiths are bigger and better.... cuz in the end they are all man-made.
Let's tackle the concept of the discussion.. not the details please.
waleed bhayya.. in that case Sunnis and Shias have invented their own pillars, cuz the only 'pillars' i can find in the Qur'an stress that Muslims believe in Allah and do not ascribe partners to him.
***Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Getting us all back to the crux of the discussion.. How can one party claim the other party is non-Muslim when they have the same ‘reasoning’ behind their own beliefs?? **
PA, the difference, in my opinion is that Sunnis (as per my knowledge) believe that Hazrat Isa (AH) will come back as follower of Prophet Mohammed PBUH, and will not be a nabi or rasool then since he will carry on the sharia of Prophet Mohammed PBUH. The only thing he’ll modify will be “Jaziya” (this, I don’t know if falls under category of “only Prophet can do”).
All Sunnis and Shias are welcome to point out where in the Qur’an does Allah tell us about a Mahdi??
“Return of Mahdi” is not from Quran, its from several ahadith (which might be carried forward by Jews??? 
)
…the much awaited advent of the Mahdi they are still Muslims but when Ahmadis do it based on the same set of literature they are declared non-Muslim???
Again, the difference is “prophethood”.
Islam invites us to the straight path. When did the Qur’an declare anybody a non-Muslim for anything but being a non-believer?? Do you think this fundamental belief that separates Muslim from Non-Muslim is a belief in Allah vahdahu la shareeka lahu or who a Mahdi would be if at all??
The reason for Sunnis/Shias to declare them (Ahmedis) kafir is because MGA declared Prophethood which is against the verse regarding “Khatamun-nabiyyen” in Quran.
Alpha my link is working fine. Beside What have you prooved so far. Nothing. We bringing our proofs In the light of Quran and hadith. And you are constantly rejecting them. with out any reason. 2ndly before we go any further. We should debate one topic at a time. like this we are confusing 3 different isues.
we should go one by one. So we dont confuse people who are trying to educate them selves.
Holy Quran also states that when ever you discuss something, discuss with wisenes. Also remeber to have the atribute of taqwa and open mindednes. One last thing before you point a finger on someone always remember 3 fingers point towards you back.
inshaji, please read PA post above and lets go back to the ORIGINAL topic.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Alpha1: *
I don't want isnaad because its a fetish of mine, it will be used to verify that the Hadith is true and is not fabricated.
Please stick to An-Najam-us-Saqib and provice the isnaad of the Hadith you cited - this will then proove that Mirza is indeed Mahdi. /QUOTE
I am affraid i don't have a copy of the original text with me. Why don't you take the pain and verify it for yourself.. You know the name of the book and the writer and the text.. Or you could get a hold of Hujat ul Karimah, a very famous work as well.. And then prove me wrong if i have cited the wrong references..
Again i have told you, there are many ahadith much widely known but not with proper Asnad... There are even ahadith in Sahih Bukhari which can't be trusted, even in the presence of the chain of narrators and a reliable source.. i have many examples, but mods are repeatedly telling us to stick to the topic. I invite you to start a new thread.. and we can discuss things there..
If sunni muslims can consider Shiites ans Muslims, and declare ahamdis as "kuffar", then it is the biggest example of bigotry ever.. I can point out towards many references from shia sources, openly refuting and mocking the basic tennants of Islam, the very foundations of our religion, but they are muslims.. and Ahmadis are not..even when we openly claim that we believe in "khatme Nabuwwat" of the Prophet SAW..
MR. Alpha 1, i will not stop replying to you in any case.. but it is my sincere advice that it will be better if we shift our debate to a new thread.
thanks
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
inshaji, please read PA post above and lets go back to the ORIGINAL topic.
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Jazakallah Brother i was on the topic but then forced to go on the other side of the discussion. I asked those who call Ahmadi, or Shia or Sunni people non muslim or kafir. I said show any incident in the time of Holy Prophet (saw) that he declared that , someone is not a muslim even though that person calls him/her self muslim. I dont even find one incident. Instead answering me the drifted away saying. Mriza sahib claim this or that. But first proove from your own idology where does it say, if someone call them selves muslim you have the authority to call them non muslim.
Edit: to view the arabic, select arabic encoding and it should work.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Islam invites us to the **straight path. When did the Qur'an declare anybody a non-Muslim for anything but being a **non-believer*??
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PA, (i'm quoting with the arabic text (hopefully it'll render correctly its in unicode) so you cant complain about the brackets) Please read COMPLETELY.
59 íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇú ÃóØöíÚõæÇú Çááøåó æóÃóØöíÚõæÇú ÇáÑøóÓõæáó æóÃõæúáöí ÇáÃóãúÑö ãöäßõãú ÝóÅöä ÊóäóÇÒóÚúÊõãú Ýöí ÔóíúÁò ÝóÑõÏøõæåõ Åöáóì Çááøåö æóÇáÑøóÓõæáö Åöä ßõäÊõãú ÊõÄúãöäõæäó ÈöÇááøåö æóÇáúíóæúãö ÇáÂÎöÑö Ðóáößó ÎóíúÑñ æóÃóÍúÓóäõ ÊóÃúæöíáÇð
O you who believe! Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allâh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allâh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. (An-Nisa 4:59)
60 Ãóáóãú ÊóÑó Åöáóì ÇáøóÐöíäó íóÒúÚõãõæäó Ãóäøóåõãú ÂãóäõæÇú ÈöãóÇ ÃõäÒöáó Åöáóíúßó æóãóÇ ÃõäÒöáó ãöä ÞóÈúáößó íõÑöíÏõæäó Ãóä íóÊóÍóÇßóãõæÇú Åöáóì ÇáØøóÇÛõæÊö æóÞóÏú ÃõãöÑõæÇú Ãóä íóßúÝõÑõæÇú Èöåö æóíõÑöíÏõ ÇáÔøóíúØóÇäõ Ãóä íõÖöáøóåõãú ÖóáÇóáÇð ÈóÚöíÏðÇ
Have you seen those (hyprocrites) who claim that they believe in that which has been sent down to you, and that which was sent down before you, and they wish to go for judgement (in their disputes) to the Tâghût (false judges, etc.) while they have been ordered to reject them. But Shaitân (Satan) wishes to lead them far astray. (An-Nisa 4:60)
61 æóÅöÐóÇ Þöíáó áóåõãú ÊóÚóÇáóæúÇú Åöáóì ãóÇ ÃóäÒóáó Çááøåõ æóÅöáóì ÇáÑøóÓõæáö ÑóÃóíúÊó ÇáúãõäóÇÝöÞöíäó íóÕõÏøõæäó Úóäßó ÕõÏõæÏðÇ
And when it is said to them: "Come to what Allâh has sent down and to the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)," you (Muhammad SAW) see the hypocrites turn away from you (Muhammad SAW) with aversion. (An-Nisa 4:61)
62 ÝóßóíúÝó ÅöÐóÇ ÃóÕóÇÈóÊúåõã ãøõÕöíÈóÉñ ÈöãóÇ ÞóÏøóãóÊú ÃóíúÏöíåöãú Ëõãøó ÌóÂÄõæßó íóÍúáöÝõæäó ÈöÇááøåö Åöäú ÃóÑóÏúäóÇ ÅöáÇøó ÅöÍúÓóÇäðÇ æóÊóæúÝöíÞðÇ
How then, when a catastrophe befalls them because of what their hands have sent forth, they come to you swearing by Allâh, "We meant no more than goodwill and conciliation!" (An-Nisa 4:62)
63 ÃõæáóÜÆößó ÇáøóÐöíäó íóÚúáóãõ Çááøåõ ãóÇ Ýöí ÞõáõæÈöåöãú ÝóÃóÚúÑöÖú Úóäúåõãú æóÚöÙúåõãú æóÞõá áøóåõãú Ýöí ÃóäÝõÓöåöãú ÞóæúáÇð ÈóáöíÛðÇ
They (hypocrites) are those of whom Allâh knows what is in their hearts; so turn aside from them (do not punish them) but admonish them, and speak to them an effective word (i.e. to believe in Allâh, worship Him, obey Him, and be afraid of Him) to reach their innerselves. (An-Nisa 4:63)
64 æóãóÇ ÃóÑúÓóáúäóÇ ãöä ÑøóÓõæáò ÅöáÇøó áöíõØóÇÚó ÈöÅöÐúäö Çááøåö æóáóæú Ãóäøóåõãú ÅöÐ ÙøóáóãõæÇú ÃóäÝõÓóåõãú ÌóÂÄõæßó ÝóÇÓúÊóÛúÝóÑõæÇú Çááøåó æóÇÓúÊóÛúÝóÑó áóåõãõ ÇáÑøóÓõæáõ áóæóÌóÏõæÇú Çááøåó ÊóæøóÇÈðÇ ÑøóÍöíãðÇ
We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed by Allâh's Leave. If they (hypocrites), when they had been unjust to themselves, had come to you (Muhammad SAW) and begged Allâh's Forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them: indeed, they would have found Allâh All-Forgiving (One Who accepts repentance), Most Merciful. (An-Nisa 4:64)
65 ÝóáÇó æóÑóÈøößó áÇó íõÄúãöäõæäó ÍóÊøóìó íõÍóßøöãõæßó ÝöíãóÇ ÔóÌóÑó Èóíúäóåõãú Ëõãøó áÇó íóÌöÏõæÇú Ýöí ÃóäÝõÓöåöãú ÍóÑóÌðÇ ãøöãøóÇ ÞóÖóíúÊó æóíõÓóáøöãõæÇú ÊóÓúáöíãðÇ
But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission. (An-Nisa 4:65)
What do we see here PA??? First we're commanded to refer everything to the prophet. and then... la-yuminoona hatta
Next thing in point, QURAN does NOT TELL US or give us glad tidings of a coming NABI, which would mean the Quran is not complete?? to not tell us of an issue of such a grave importance? We believe that Quran deals with ALL important issues bar none, and it asks us to refer to the Prophet where we have disputes, AND NONE OF THESE SOURCES point to the coming of an
^ Amaar Ji what language is this its all garbbled...
Abdali buzurgo if you're using internet explorer, right click, select encoding -> arabic and it should display as arabic.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ammarr: *
Next thing in point, QURAN does NOT TELL US or give us glad tidings of a coming NABI, which would mean the Quran is not complete?? to not tell us of an issue of such a grave importance? We believe that Quran deals with ALL important issues bar none, and it asks us to refer to the Prophet where we have disputes, AND NONE OF THESE SOURCES point to the coming of an
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How come Quran has missed mentioning the second coming of Isa (as). That is an issue of grave importance that Even Prophet SAW said, "In the name of Allah, who posseses my life, that Jesus will descend soon....." Can you point to any verse in Quran which is testifies to this hadith..
The word Extra that you use makes no sense. Ibne Arabi and shah waliullah have understood Quran and Hadith is a much better way, and they definitely don't agree with the concept of "mainstream muslim Khatme nabuwwat" concept.
And as Ahmadis, we do put Quran and Sunnah, first and foremost.. Prove us wrong in that, and then declare us Kafir!!!
PA, let me take a crack at this. Two most fundamental things that are required of a Muslim o be considered a Muslim are believing in God, that he has no partners and Prophet Muhammad(SAW) was his prophet. Now if you believe that Muhammad (PBUH) was a prophet of Allah, you should also believe when he says that "Islam is complete" there will be no more relevations from Allah regarding Islam. I think all sects of Islam including Ahmedis believe that. I like to stay away from the judgement of calling someone kafir or Non Mulsim. I have been taught that Allah is the only judge and knows what is in the heart of a person. If someone believes that Mirza sahib was a prophet, then prove it. Did he add anything to the Islam? Did he try to create new rules that are not prescribed and sanctioned in Quran? If you say yes to both of those questions, you are going against the fundamentals of Islam.
Wel prove any new thing added into shariah, any bidda't, any new practice... and then you are free to call us whatever..
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*Originally posted by Destino: *
How come Quran has missed mentioning the second coming of Isa (as). That is an issue of grave importance that Even Prophet SAW said, "In the name of Allah, who posseses my life, that Jesus will descend soon....." Can you point to any verse in Quran which is testifies to this hadith..
The word Extra that you use makes no sense. Ibne Arabi and shah waliullah have understood Quran and Hadith is a much better way, and they definitely don't agree with the concept of "mainstream muslim Khatme nabuwwat" concept.
And as Ahmadis, we do put Quran and Sunnah, first and foremost.. Prove us wrong in that, and then declare us Kafir!!!
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Destino, please provide a Quranic verse which tells us about the "second" coming of Jesus or MGA.
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*Originally posted by Destino: *
Wel prove any new thing added into shariah, any bidda't, any new practice... and then you are free to call us whatever..
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I wanted to stay way from that but, I do not believe nor do I practise any of the additions "biddats" to be exact. I try to look at Quran and sunnah fro guidance. Now, go ahead and prove way.....
We have to set a standard here. Either we are only going to refer Holy Quran or are we going to also include Sunnah & Ahadith?
Are we going to reject everything that is not mentioned in Holy Quran? In that case what will become of the way we offer Salat five times a day! It is not mentioned in Holy Quran!
We're not going to start a Qur'an alone or hadith discussion in here.
The main questions now to Ahmadis is:
Do Ahmadis take Prophet Muhammad as their 'judge'?
and to Sunnis and Shias is:
If the Ahmadis say they accept Prophet Muhammad as their 'judge' for all matters .. would they still be non-Muslims??
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
We're not going to start a Qur'an alone or hadith discussion in here.
The main questions now to Ahmadis is:
Do Ahmadis take Prophet Muhammad as their 'judge'?
and to Sunnis and Shias is:
If the Ahmadis say they accept Prophet Muhammad as their 'judge' for all matters .. would they still be non-Muslims??
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Based on what my Ahmedi friend told me I believe they are muslims.. That is ** IF ** without any shadow of a doubt ** IF ** they believe in our prophet as the last prophet and don't make any claims that even slightly contradict that.
Any violation of the above then non muslims.
I am quoting Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from one of his books. Its for everybody to see the status of Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) in his eyes.
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always wonder how high was the status of this Arab Prophet, whose name was Muhammad, thousands of blessings and peace be upon him. One cannot reach the limit of his high status and it is not given to man to estimate correctly his spiritual effectiveness. It is a pity that his rank has not been recognized as it should have been. He was the champion who restored to the world the Unity of God which had disappeared from the world; he loved God in the extreme and his soul melted out of sympathy for mankind. Therefore God, Who knew the secret of his heart, exalted him above all the Prophets and all the first ones and the last ones and bestowed upon him in his life-time all that he desired. He is the fountain-head of every grace and a person who claims any superiority without acknowledging his grace, is not a man but is the progeny of Satan. He has been bestowed the key to every exaltation and he has been given the treasury of every understanding. He who does not receive through him is deprived forever. I am nothing and possess nothing. I would be most ungrateful if I were not to confess that I have learnt of the true Unity of God through this Prophet. The recognition of the Living God we have achieved through this Perfect Prophet and through his light. The honour of converse with God, through which we behold His countenance has been bestowed upon me through this great Prophet. The ray of this sun of guidance falls like sunshine upon me and I continue illumined only so long as I am adjusted towards it [Haqiqatul Wahi, (Qadian, Magazine Press 1907); Now published in Ruhani Khazain (London, 1984), Vol. 22, pp. 115-116].
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