Alpha, I know it can get confusing sometimes thats why I am a casual lurker at religion forum. However my question should have been.
Do they believe in Mohammed (SAW) as their last prophet?
I read all of the posts. Now let me mention something to you all. Who konw about Shah Waliullah (ra) , Imam abdul Wahab Sherani (ra), Hazret Mohiyyodin Ibn`e Arabi (ra). Hazret Abduallah Mohamed Bin Ali hussain Tirmazi (ra). Molana Mohamed Qasim Nanotwi (ra). Hazret Molana Roomi (ra)..
These all were big saints and Mujadid of the time After HOly Prophet (saw). Where should i start from Lets start from
Hazret Shah Waliullah (ra) what did he think on this issue.
Is he kafir then Naozubillah.
lets see what the founder of DioBandi Firqa stated.
So our meaning are based on these saints who are FAAAR better then these so called Ulama of todays age and time.
And look what Hazret Mohiyyondin Ibn`e Arabi (ra) says He also was a mujadid.
so now when you compare this to what Ahmadi belief i dont see any contridiction. Either you say these saints and mujadid of the time are liers nauzobillah. Or you accept our interpertation as well.
…if you cant view images it might be that the server is down…
insha_ji
Your links are not working please check them.
PA, sorry yar if you are banging your head on the wall. :D
Destino
It is good that you have begun the good practice of presenting references to back your claims.
You have referred to verses in the Quran, and have cited Hadith. I want you first of all to give me the reference that Mirza of Qadian is the Messih, is Isa bin Maryam, is the Mahdi.
Once you have done so from the Qur'an and the sunnah, I will then give you a reply to your references.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Abdali: *
Alpha, I know it can get confusing sometimes thats why I am a casual lurker at religion forum. However my question should have been.
Do they believe in Mohammed (SAW) as their last prophet?
[/QUOTE]
I understand your confusion, which is why you should go back and read what I wrote. No is the answer again.
How can they believe Mohammad (PBUH) as the last Nabi. when they have redefined the very term and have given the staus of Nabi to Mirza?
For goodness sake, they say Mirza was Isa - where is the evidence from the Qur'an and the Sunnah??
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by insha_ji: *
These all were big saints and Mujadid of the time After HOly Prophet (saw). Where should i start from Lets start from
so now when you compare this to what Ahmadi belief i dont see any contridiction. Either you say these saints and mujadid of the time are liers nauzobillah. Or you accept our interpertation as well.
[/QUOTE]
Who is a mujadid will always be subjective (like my Imam is better than yours, and so forth...). Let me say to you Mr Inshaji, than from all the Mujadid that I have come across from the works they have written, not one of their opions are without reference to the Qur'an and the Sunnah of our Nabi (PBUH). The links you posted, appear to be scans of books (the pages all look the same to me), where someone has expressed an opinion. Its not about who is a liar here, its about proving from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. No matter how long your beard, your opinion will just be that if not backed by the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
If something does not go with your belief then you are going to deny it simple. I just gave u the blief of differnet saints of the Muslim Ummah. We as Ahmadi didnt do any addition or deletion from any where in the Quran or Sunnah. If you think the ones that i posted are worng You are free to chek your self. I also gave the refrences where i got them from beside they are comentry on the Ayyet Khatam Nabiyyen.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by insha_ji: *
If something does not go with your belief then you are going to deny it simple. I just gave u the blief of differnet saints of the Muslim Ummah. We as Ahmadi didnt do any addition or deletion from any where in the Quran or Sunnah. If you think the ones that i posted are worng You are free to chek your self. I also gave the refrences where i got them from beside they are comentry on the Ayyet Khatam Nabiyyen.
[/QUOTE]
Certainly the references posted by Destino can be questioned, and PakistaniAbroad I know disaproves of the use of brackets and bold letters within ayahs (funny PA has not done so), but I do not want to start a circular argument, so I will not discuss them.
But rather I would like to start from first principles, lets assume what you are saying is correct:
Thank you for your Ilm and may Allah grant you success in this world and the hereafter Insha_Ji. You are also welcome along with Destino to provide the Ayahs from the Qur'an, along with the references to Hadith which clearly state that Mirza of Qadiyan is the Messih/Mahdi.
Time of advent of Mahdi the reformer
a) Hazeefa bin Yamman reports that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "1240 years would not have passed over the Hijrah (migration from Mecca to Madina) that Allah will send the Mahdi.
(An-Najam-us-Saqib, Vol. 2, p. 209)
b) Hazrat Shah Wali Ullah Dehlvi, mercy of Allah be on him, calculated the year of appearance of the Mahdi as the year 1268 of Islamic era. His calculation is based on the ‘Jamal’ Calculation of the words ‘Chiragh-e-Deen.’ (Hajajul Karamah, p. 394)
Place of Mahdi's appearance:
(a) Hazrat Ans (Allah be pleased with him) reported, "I heard from my friend and Master, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and said the (Qiyyamat) hour will not come till Allah has raised two Jamaat's (groups) on whom the fire of Hell will be forbidden (Haram). One group will side with the Mahdi, whose name will be Ahmad, in jihad in Hind (India) and one group will be with the Isa [Jesus] son of Mary." Imam Bukhari has reported this in his book. (An-Najam-us-Saqib, Vol. 2, footnotes on page 41)
Two seperate descriptions of Jesus (israelite) and Promissed Massiah
Old Jesus son of Mary (A prophet towards Bani Israel) :
Sahih Bukhari, Kitabul Anbiya, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 607:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "On the night of my Ascension to Heaven, I saw (the prophet) Moses who was a thin person with lank hair, looking like one of the men of the tribe of Shanua; and I saw Jesus who was of average height with red face as if he had just come out of a bathroom . And I resemble prophet Abraham more than any of his offspring does. Then I was given two cups, one containing milk and the other wine. Gabriel said, 'Drink whichever you like.' I took the milk and drank it. Gabriel said, 'You have accepted what is natural, (True Religion i.e. Islam) and if you had taken the wine, your followers would have gone astray.' "
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 608:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said, "One should not say that I am better than Jonah (i.e. Yunus) bin Matta." So, he mentioned his father Matta. The Prophet mentioned the night of his Ascension and said, "The prophet Moses was brown, a tall person as if from the people of the tribe of Shanu'a. .Jesus was a curly-haired man of moderate height " He also mentioned Malik, the gate-keeper of the (Hell) Fire, and Ad-Dajjal.
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 648:
Narrated Ibn Umar:
The Prophet said, "I saw Moses, Jesus and Abraham (on the night of my Ascension to the heavens). Jesus was of red complexion, curly hair and a broad chest. Moses was of brown complexion, straight hair and tall stature as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt."
New Jesus son of Mary (Metaphorically):
quote:
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 649:
Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet mentioned the Massiah Ad-Dajjal in front of the people saying, Allah is not one eyed while Messsiah, Ad-Dajjal is blind in the right eye and his eye looks like a bulging out grape. While sleeping near the Ka'ba last night, I saw in my dream *a man of brown color the best one can see amongst brown color and his hair was long that it fell between his shoulders. His hair was lank and water was dribbling from his head and he was placing his hands on the shoulders of two men while circumambulating the Kaba. I asked, 'Who is this?' They replied, 'This is Jesus, son of Mary.' * .
Here is the proof of that keep in mind these are proofs are compiled togather taking from differnt books. I am also giving the original arabic text aswell so that you dont have objection. If you do then go chek it out your self.
Now take a look at this hadith in which Holy Prophet (saw) i was Khatamul Nabiyyen even before Adam was created. Now all those 114000 Nabi dont you believe on them.
We appear to be moving in the right direction. I see you have been to this site:
Lets start with the Hadith you quoted above.
First of all, I am having a bit of bother trying to find any works by Bukharee entitled An-Najam-us-Saqib (assuming we are referring to the Hadith Scholar). But assuming this work does exist, and that what you quoted is a valid source, please cite the isnaad, or chain of narration, and I will get it checked out for authenticity.
The same applies to you inshaji - provide the isnaad for this hadith
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Alpha1: *
The same applies to you inshaji - provide the isnaad for this hadith
[/QUOTE]
i guesss you dont read carefuly do you. I gave the refrences and where it came from. And you still insist that i didnt.
Najmus Saqib is another not really well known book of Imam Bukhari..
Ok.. The reason we don't find these ahadith in the sahah is because of lack of chain of narrators or other difficulties like this..
You can rule them out if you like.. But i also quote something from Hazrat Shah WaliUllah "muhaddith" dehlavi.. Obviously the saints and sages like Shah waliullah and Ibn e Arabi and Imam Bukhari were well versed with the science of hadith , and if they infer anything from some not very well known ahadith, there must be some reason behind it..
I have also quoted Sahih ahadith, from Sahah Sittah, with asnad and references, and you haven't commented on them yet..
Getting us all back to the crux of the discussion.. How can one party claim the other party is non-Muslim when they have the same 'reasoning' behind their own beliefs??
All Sunnis and Shias are welcome to point out where in the Qur'an does Allah tell us about a Mahdi?? Now when Sunnis and Shias cite hadiths verified by themselves (talk about circular logic) or mistranslate verses in the light of these hadiths and start believing in the much awaited advent of the Mahdi they are still Muslims but when Ahmadis do it based on the same set of literature they are declared non-Muslim???
Islam invites us to the straight path. When did the Qur'an declare anybody a non-Muslim for anything but being a non-believer?? Do you think this fundamental belief that separates Muslim from Non-Muslim is a belief in Allah vahdahu la shareeka lahu or who a Mahdi would be if at all??
Please keep the discussion at a higher level.. open another thread to discuss the minor points of how to interpret hadiths or verses concerning this debate.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by insha_ji: *
i guesss you dont read carefuly do you. I gave the refrences and where it came from. And you still insist that i didnt.
[/QUOTE]
Your link has gone down, but put it this way, when it comes to this deen, someone who claims to have something from the Nabi will be scrutinized - there is the science oft he muhadatheen. Since what you say goes againts the very grain of Islam, and since you claim to have a hadeeth to prove what you say - provide the isnaad. The isnaad will be examined, and then we will reach our conclusion.
Otherwise everyone can say they have a Hadeeth from Aisha.
PA uncle have u heard of the 5 pillars of islam or even 7 with some shias and they r all different but i think the first one is believeing in allah and that prophet mohammad peace be upon him is the last prophet :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
Najmus Saqib is another not really well known book of Imam Bukhari..
Ok.. The reason we don't find these ahadith in the sahah is because of lack of chain of narrators or other difficulties like this..
You can rule them out if you like.. But i also quote something from Hazrat Shah WaliUllah "muhaddith" dehlavi.. Obviously the saints and sages like Shah waliullah and Ibn e Arabi and Imam Bukhari were well versed with the science of hadith , and if they infer anything from some not very well known ahadith, there must be some reason behind it..
I have also quoted Sahih ahadith, from Sahah Sittah, with asnad and references, and you haven't commented on them yet..
[/QUOTE]
There are many Hadith which are not included in the Sahih - thier authors were only human and could not gather all the Hadith that has existed but still alhamdulillah they have done us a great service. Even if your hadith is not included in the Sitah, still I want the isnaad and I will get it checked out. Lets start with your Hadith from the Najmus-Saqib. This is your evidence that Mirza is the mahdi. Provide the isnaad, I will get it checked and verified.
Once your hadith verifies that Mirza is/was Isa/Mahdi, then you have proved yourself right and you do not even need to quote anything more.
The truth of a prophetic hadith can be measured by its coming true..
Here i quote a hadith with not many Asnad, which is not from Sahah sittah and not widely know...
On Dajjal it is narrated in Kanzul Ummal 7:1998-2104.
"Underneath him will be a white ass. The length of each one of its ears will be 30 yards, and his one step will be the distance of a day's journey".
And he will cure the blind and the lepers and will revive the dead... The sea will be ankle-deep for him.
"His voice will be so loud that the whole world will hear him when he speaks.
"Dajjal will travel the entire world and request the Earth to surrender its treasures, which it will willingly do.
Similar narrative can be found in a not very reknowned book, called Mishkah al-Masabih.
"We said, O Messenger of Allah, how swift will he travel on the Earth? He said: As the cloud is carried in the wind, He, Dajjal, will be jumping about between the Heavens and the Earth.
"So the world's treasures will follow him as the bees follow their queen.
"Allah will give Dajjal the natural power of material knowledge, and the liberty to exercise that power in any way he wills, even to resurrect the dead.
Dajjal will come riding on an ass which will cross great distances very quickly.
"Dajjal will be blind in his right eye, and the left eye will shine like a star. His skin will be white.
"Dajjal will be accompanied by beautiful women and spirits and ******* children and other kinds of people --- including an army of Jews. He will have music and singing unlike any ever heard before, and whoever hears it will follow it.
"When Dajjal appears and he cannot bring the whole world under his power and machinations and false beliefs, the Christian nations will stand up with 80 banners or flags in an effort to make peace in the world. But they will, in fact, betray the world and bring ultimate destruction to the entire human race."
(remember, these books were compiled hundreds of years before the the inventions of trains and steam engines and TV...)