no insha_ji, it is a discussion of who gets to call the other non-Muslim and based on what.
First and foremost.. no one has yet come forward to explain which quintessential tenet of Ahmadism violates a fundamental islamic belief?
note I said Islamic.. not Sunni, not Shia.. not of any madhab, but Islamic.
I c. i got the idea reading the two pages...
I think No Parliment of anykind have the authority to declare anyone a non muslim. If you say some goverment can. Give an example from the time of Holy Prophet (saw). That if someone called them selves a musilm and Hazoor (saw) said no you are not muslim you are kafir.
So anyone got any example.
From Sahih Muslim:
Book 001, Number 0293:
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: A section of my people will not cease fighting for the Truth and will prevail till the Day of Resurrection. He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims') commander would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honour from Allah for this Ummah.
So far only I could find this hadith which suggests that Hazrat Essa AH will pray behind a follower of Prophet Mohammed PBUH, however I have found other ahadith which tell otherwise (Hazrat Essa AH leading the prayer).
Sunnis believe that Prophet Mohammed PBUH is last, there would be no prophet after him, thats why when Hazrat Essa AH will return he will be as a follower of Prophet Mohammed PBUH (thats why he will also pray behind follower of Prophet Mohammed PBUH) and will carry on same sharia of Mohammed PBUH except for abolishing jaziya. This is what I have always heard, learnt from Sunni scholars.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by insha_ji: *
I c. i got the idea reading the two pages...
I think No Parliment of anykind have the authority to declare anyone a non muslim. If you say some goverment can. Give an example from the time of Holy Prophet (saw). That if someone called them selves a musilm and Hazoor (saw) said no you are not muslim you are kafir.
So anyone got any example.
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps in his time there was no such mixing as we have now. In his time he had Jews, Christians, Idolators. The false prophet was persecuted hence one way or the other deemed/declared non-Muslim. I think more people rose after departure of Prophet Mohammed PBUH and were persecuted by Hazrat Abu Bakr RA. There was no "government" of type as we have today. There was "ruler" who declared the false prophets as false and persecuted them.
I do not know how many changes MGA brought into sharia of Prophet Mohammed PBUH so I do not know whether there is a need of declaring Ahmedis as non-Muslim.
my dear it doesnt really matter o who says who is non muslim
it depends on the heart and mind of individulas
and we are no one to know that only Allah knows that...
and shia and sunni sects are not diffrent at all its the molvis who have made them diffrent.....
Changez bhai, if the hadiths that you mention is your only ref. then it's far fetch conclusion as it says nothing about his prophethood. But if it makes you feel comfortable, please keep on believing.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
Thats another issue.. but your statement that
"Sunnis believe that Essa AH (Jesus) will not return as "Prophet", rather a follower of Prophet Mohammed PBUH."
is not right... So, the claim that Ahmadis can be ruled outside the pale of islam is baseless, and clear bigotry.
[/QUOTE]
No, the issue on Ahmadis is whether a person other that the Prophets of Allah can come after Abu Kasim Mohammad ibn Abdullah Al-Hashimi Al Quraishi (PBUH), with a new deen and a new kalam.
Yes on the day of Judgement, there will be Prophets of Allah to whom the people will try to ask for intercesson, but on the day or reckoning there will be no dunyia, no deen, nothing, it will all be too late. All the Nabiyeen that came to mankind will be present on that day, from #1 to #124,000. Isa bin Maryam, when he comes to earth will stilll be Nabi #124000 - 1, not as #124000 + 1. So your inference from this that there can be a nabi afterwards falls flat on its face.
Isa bin Maryam, yes the Nabi of Allah will return, but not with any new Deen, the deen of that day will be the deen of Mohammad (PBUH).
If you want be be called Muslims, then why do you not treat your Mirza like a mujadid rather than a nabi? Ibn Tamiyah was a Mujadid (reformer of his time), and yet he did not claim nabowat, nor did he have any kalam which he claimed was from Allah, so why is Mirza different? Yes 19th Centuary India was in a mess in terms of the people following the deen, so any attempts to bring people back onto the deen of Allah would be afforded much acclaim, but rather, your clan and its head Mirza, have taken to creating a new deen, a new kalam. The shia, (with the exception of a few of the Shia sects), even they do not claim to have a new deen of Allah and a new Nabi, the Mutazila did not claim to have a new deen/nabi, the khawarij did not claim a new nabi/deen, the Ikhwaan, the Hanafieen, the Mailkiees, every sect, or subsect gave a different interpretaion on Islam, but at no stage did they claim to superceed it with a new deen/nabi.
You can now see the difference between Ahmadies over all the different sects that have appeared in Islam. The Ahmadies have thus created something in place of Islam. Your free to practice Ahmadism, but not to label it as Islam - that has a copyright protection, the patent taken out and safeguarded by Allah swt.
And Mr PA - for someone who claims to be such an absolute and subjective adherant to the Qur'an and nothing else, why should there by any doubts from your reading of the Qur'an on whether Ahmadies are Muslims or not? Does the Qur'an not say if there can be a new kalam/nabi after the Qur'an and Mohammad (saw)? If there matter is so clear cut, does the Qur'an not give glad tidings of the comming of Mirza, or does it make a clear-cut statement on the last Nabi being Mohammad (PBUH)? I am awaiting your guidance on this matter!
This makes me wonder, are you really just ignorant and curious as to this matter, or are you an agent provocateur?
In answer to your original post PA, nobody can call anyone Kaffir who claims to follow the Qur'an and Sunaah of the Nabi (yes I do include the Shia in this).
Mr Alpha,
Thanks for your detailed opinion..
When you talk about "Ahmadiyyat" as a new "deen", think again! We do not follow any new Shariah... but we claim to follow the same Islam that Holy Prophet SAW brought.
You say that Isa (as) will come back as the follower of Prophet SAW, we have the same beliefs about the Promised Massiah (as).
If someone is called a "nabi" in the sense of reciever of revelations from God, then who are we to deny it?
When you think the word "nabi" you think new religion, innovations, abrogations.. but think again, what will be Isa (as) doing with his prophethood back on earth (according to Sunni view)?
We just believe that Isa (as) has passed away like other Prophets (as stated in Quran at numerous occasions), and the Jesus (as) promised by God has arrived. No new teachings, no new beliefs.. just original Islam, which breaks the cross and kills the pigs.
The question of a person claiming to be a prophet, is easily explainable.. Read the Quran and Hadith.. no where has God said that he will stop communicating with man.. And Hadith says that Isa (as) will be an apostle of Allah when he descends (i think you need to read the posts carefully).
So, if a Mujaddid who is given the status of Isa (as) in this Ummah, by noone else then God and his Prophet SAW themselves, who are we to reject him? And what makes accepting him "kufr"?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
Mr Alpha,
Thanks for your detailed opinion..
When you talk about "Ahmadiyyat" as a new "deen", think again! We do not follow any new Shariah... but we claim to follow the same Islam that Holy Prophet SAW brought.
You say that Isa (as) will come back as the follower of Prophet SAW, we have the same beliefs about the Promised Massiah (as).
If someone is called a "nabi" in the sense of reciever of revelations from God, then who are we to deny it?
When you think the word "nabi" you think new religion, innovations, abrogations.. but think again, what will be Isa (as) doing with his prophethood back on earth (according to Sunni view)?
We just believe that Isa (as) has passed away like other Prophets (as stated in Quran at numerous occasions), and the Jesus (as) promised by God has arrived. No new teachings, no new beliefs.. just original Islam, which breaks the cross and kills the pigs.
The question of a person claiming to be a prophet, is easily explainable.. Read the Quran and Hadith.. no where has God said that he will stop communicating with man.. And Hadith says that Isa (as) will be an apostle of Allah when he descends (i think you need to read the posts carefully).
So, if a Mujaddid who is given the status of Isa (as) in this Ummah, by noone else then God and his Prophet SAW themselves, who are we to reject him? And what makes accepting him "kufr"?
[/QUOTE]
Destino
Firstly, let us assume that Mirza was a Mujadid.
When I talk of a Mujadid, I mean a reformer, not an innovator. Someone who reminds people of the deen that was revealed. He will then simply refer the people to what has already been revealed from the literature already available. Where then, does the Mujadid get raised to the status of a Prophet? Who gave this mujadid the staus of Isa? How do we make this leap of faith?
Lets assume that nobody in my pind reads namaz. Nobody fasts, gives zakat, lets say they spend all their free time watching Z-TV and bollywood. If all of a sudden, a person from the pind starts to tell the people to follow the path of Allah, does that make him a Nabi?
Using this argument, then all the members of Jamat - at Tabligh are all Nabi's?? (Naozobillah!)
You say that no sources in Hadith tell us God will stop communicating to man - Read the following:
{Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (seal) of the Prophets}, [Soorah al-Ahzaab, Aayah 40].
and.....from the sunnah:
((I am the seal of (all) the prophets, there is no prophet after me)), [Imaam Ahmad - volume 2, page 398 and 412, volume 3 page 79 and 248, volume 4, page 81, 84, 127 and 128, volume 5, page 278; al-Bukhaaree (Fat.h al-Baaree) number 3535; Muslim - number 2286 and 2287; Abu Daawood - number 4252].
Yes there will be reformers, but they will do just that - reform, bring people back to Islam. They will not receive wahi (kalam), not will they be a nabi. There is no prophet means just that!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
So, if a Mujaddid who is given the status of Isa (as) in this Ummah, by noone else then God and his Prophet SAW themselves, who are we to reject him? And what makes accepting him "kufr"?
[/QUOTE]
So prove to me that Allah (swt) has given Mirza the status of Isa. That the Qur'an and Sunnah have conferred upon Mirza the noble status of Nabowat.
If Mirza is a mujadid, then so too are thousands of others who came before him and since him, and if you say that Isa will return as a Mujadid and thus Mirza has a status equal to Isa and thus is a Nabi, then using this argument again, so too are the thousands who came before him. You should then not call yourselves Ahmadies, but rather you should call yourselves Hanafihanbalishafimaliki.......ahmadies........albanibinbaazi.........the list would almost be endless! Except that Allah speak against such nonesense:
{Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (seal) of the Prophets}, [Soorah al-Ahzaab, Aayah 40].
Your argument is flawd, its a bit like saying Isa had hair, I too have hair so I must be too a Nabi. Musa had a borther, I too have a brother so I must be equal in status to him, Nuh had a son. I too have a son so must be equal in status to him....... this seems more like arrogance and a superiority complex on the part of your Mirza to think that his work and and status could be compared to Isa bin Maryam.
I will not argue for a Mujaddad being a "prophet".. But a person given the status of a Prophet, according to a promise, made in Quran and Hadith..
The verse from Surah Ahzab is on Khatme Nabuwwat...Without a doubt there will be no other Prophet bringing any new book, law, shairah.. but there is a promise of a Prophet (Isa) to revive and reform islam back to its original form as brought by Holpy Prophet saw. Try fitting him into your "no Prophet whatsoever" scenario.. You will start making exceptions then..
So Wahi (as in Kalam, scripture) has seized, but Revelations as kushoof (visions) and ilhamaat are still open.. Even a honey bee recieves Wahi.. i think you wil agree that man is more deserving for wahi then an insect.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
I will not argue for a Mujaddad being a "prophet".. But a person given the status of a Prophet, according to a promise, made in Quran and Hadith..
The verse from Surah Ahzab is on Khatme Nabuwwat...Without a doubt there will be no other Prophet bringing any new book, law, shairah.. but there is a promise of a Prophet (Isa) to revive and reform islam back to its original form as brought by Holpy Prophet saw. Try fitting him into your "no Prophet whatsoever" scenario.. You will start making exceptions then..
So Wahi (as in Kalam, scripture) has seized, but Revelations as kushoof (visions) and ilhamaat are still open.. Even a honey bee recieves Wahi.. i think you wil agree that man is more deserving for wahi then an insect.
[/QUOTE]
A couple of thoughts on this...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
I will not argue for a Mujaddad being a "prophet".. But a person given the status of a Prophet, according to a promise, made in Quran and Hadith..
[/QUOTE]
So what exactly is Mirza? Not a Nabi, but someone with the status of a Nabi?
Koi shacks is duniya me na ayah jo Nabiyon ke jhootein ko brarabar be hosake.
Someone who thinks he is equal in status to a Nabi is misguided and arrogant.
Call me old fashioned, but for the sake of knowledge and guidance, please let us know of the promise made in Qur'an and Hadith that this person is Mirza, references please!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
The verse from Surah Ahzab is on Khatme Nabuwwat...Without a doubt there will be no other Prophet bringing any new book, law, shairah.. but there is a promise of a Prophet (Isa) to revive and reform islam back to its original form as brought by Holpy Prophet saw. Try fitting him into your "no Prophet whatsoever" scenario.. You will start making exceptions then..
[/QUOTE]
The "promise" is an exclusive reference to Isa bin Maryam. Again, we need to realise that the time since the passing away of Muhammad (PBUH) and the birth of Mirza, there have been numberous revivers, why has Mirza been equated to the status of Isa? Or is it simply the case that you are claiming that Isa is Mirza? You cannot use Isa as a liscence to give Mirza nabowat without saying the same for other revivers as well. Therefore, there are no exceptions to the ayah in Surah Azhab!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
So Wahi (as in Kalam, scripture) has seized, but Revelations as kushoof (visions) and ilhamaat are still open.. Even a honey bee recieves Wahi.. i think you wil agree that man is more deserving for wahi then an insect.
[/QUOTE]
But the Bee is not instructed by Allah to deliver His message! The Bee is simply ordered as Allah orders. The Angels are ordered as Allah orders. Humans on the other hand have been given something unique to humans alone, akal - intellect to differentiate between right and wrong, and have been given the scriptures to base thier lives upon. Again, no prophet means just that as in Surah Azhab.
So in summary:
Please provide Qur'an and Hadith references that Mira is the promised one you talk about.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Alpha1: *
A couple of thoughts on this...
Call me old fashioned, but for the sake of knowledge and guidance, please let us know of the promise made in Qur'an and Hadith that this person is Mirza, references please!
[/QUOTE]
There are many proofs. I think the thread topic is not to prove Promised Massiah's truthfullness but whether you can declare anyone kafir or not!
Here is a link. www.alislam.org . you are most welcome to go and read the material there. if still you have any objections, and i know you have many, you can start a new thread. I will be available to reply them.
[QUOTE]
The "promise" is an exclusive reference to Isa bin Maryam. Again, we need to realise that the time since the passing away of Muhammad (PBUH) and the birth of Mirza, there have been numberous revivers, why has Mirza been equated to the status of Isa? Or is it simply the case that you are claiming that Isa is Mirza? You cannot use Isa as a liscence to give Mirza nabowat without saying the same for other revivers as well. Therefore, there are no exceptions to the ayah in Surah Azhab!
[/QUOTE]
The fact is that you do believe in the possibilty, rather certainty of a Prophet to descend upon the world.. and still see "no prophet whatsoever" claim valid.. Isa (as) has passed away/died/deceased. So, the Isa who is coming to revive and reform will be Isa in the sense of the purpose of his mission and not literally.
[QUOTE]
But the Bee is not instructed by Allah to deliver His message! The Bee is simply ordered as Allah orders. The Angels are ordered as Allah orders. Humans on the other hand have been given something unique to humans alone, akal - intellect to differentiate between right and wrong, and have been given the scriptures to base thier lives upon. Again, no prophet means just that as in Surah Azhab.
[/QUOTE]
Wahi, is the exact word used in Quran for a honey bee, and Hadith says that Door of wahi is closed.. Obviously Wahi has different types and kushhor and Ilhaam are forms of revelation.
Normally such debates on religion become heated discussions especially when faith is a very personal thing and when one party try to impose it on the other. Myself I am not a very religious person and do not get into minute details I think thats when the temperatures start rising. However I had an Ahmedi friend in UK London and would like to share my personal experience on the subject with you. He use to work at Ambala in East London. One day I went to visit him but he was not there so that was a good time as any for the fundos to start their discussion especially in his absence.
Anyway they were discussing the same topic like you folks so that is when I first learned Ahmedis are kafirs or not muslims blah blah blah and the reason was the same as always.
So one day I asked my friend the one million dollar question. "Who is the last prophet?" This is what he said, verbatim:-
MOHAMMED (SAW)..
I said the guys at Ambala say that you believe in Mirza Ahmed as your last prophet.
He said, verbatim again:-
I swear on my mothers grave that we believe in Mohammed (SAW) as the last prophet.
Now don't you folks think that this should be enough to qualify for a muslim? or is there something in minute details that I am missing.
Destino
This post was raised with the question of why do "sunnis" call ahmadies kaffir when they dont call shia kaffir? PA was curious. Tell me in which way our discourse goes off on a tangent?
I think you do not want us to discuss this further which is fine by me. Let me though make a few things clear from what has been said:
I firmly believe that there will be a Messih sent to mankind, the messih will be the Nabi of Allah Isa bin Maryam (as). He will follow the manhaj and the sunnah, the deen of Muhammad (PBUH). On this there is no doubt no probability - just plain certainty, so let me make that clear for all. I also believe that in no way whatsoever will Mirza ever be Isa (as).
Secondly, I find it extremely offensive when someone makes a statement which they attribute to Allah and His Nabi, and then give you a URL to a website when you ask for the evidence. You need to learn a thing or two about discussing Islam.
I am unconvinced that Mirza is the Messih, I deny that he was a Nabi in any shape or form whatsoever, and subsequantly since this goes against the Qur'an and the Sunnah, to answer PA's original question, this is why Ahmadies are kuffar, yet Shia are not. Ahmadies claim to accept Allah and His Messenger, yet deny the Qur'an and the Sunnah in this regard.
I would not like you to think that our discussion has been meaningless, I have learned a great deal from it for which you deserve credit. I now know why Isa (as) has to have settled and have died in Kashmir, because as we all know Allah has promised the return of Isa, and since he is supposedly dead and buried (why Kashmir of all places, but still..), that then becomes an excuse for Mirza to try and claim his place.
If you really want me to become what you would term a proper Muslim, then all you have to do is to show me where in the Qur'an and the SUnnah Mirza is mentioned as the Messih and I will accept your deen. No one doubts that Isa will return, that he will remove the hardship of the muslims, all that is at disagreement here, is that you have to proove to me that Mirza was Isa.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Abdali: *
He said, verbatim again:-
I swear on my mothers grave that we believe in Mohammed (SAW) as the last prophet.
Now don't you folks think that this should be enough to qualify for a muslim? or is there something in minute details that I am missing.
[/QUOTE]
Abdali,
With respect, we are having a discusison here, nothing more, nothing less. No one is the victim here, nor is anyone being beaten or burned. No one's house is being burned down. Therefore, I hope that you are not going to term me a "fundo". This is a discussion website where opinions from different sides of an argument are presented.
In answer to your question, NO is the answer. Why? Because the Ahmadies have broken down the term Nabi into Nabi's that are law-bearing, and Nabi's that are some sort of pseudo inspired guides. When we read sura Azhab, and learn that there will be no Nabi after Mohanmmad (PBUH), we know that Allah does not waste or keeps words hidden. The verse is plain for all to see.
Using their argument, the world would be full of Nabi's like Mirza, and which one should we follow?
If Mirza was indeed a reviver, would Ahmadies not just simply be Muslims, following the Qur'an and the Sunnah, and be no different from the other Muslims?
Alpha,
My criticism was not dirceted towards anyone except those who cause trouble back home I guess they have too much time on their hands.
BUT do they say believe in the last prophet that is the bottom line?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Abdali: *
Alpha,
My criticism was not dirceted towards anyone except those who cause trouble back home I guess they have too much time on their hands.
BUT do they say believe in the last prophet that is the bottom line?
[/QUOTE]
Not quite. Muhammad (PBUH) has told us (see my ref earlier) that there will be no Nabi after him, no deen to follow except his. Therefore anything contrary to this can only ever be something other than Islam.
In terms of Ahmadies in Pakistan, I have some things to say. Pakistan is not a Khalifat, because the punishment would not end with the Ahmadies, and probably would not stop until the only people left in Pakistan would be the Indians after they realise that nobody is left in Pakistan!
They should be left to their own devices, but lets not stiffle debate, the scholars should be able to still question thier deen.
I often think of the Ahmadies like the Parsis of India. They were persecuted in Iran for being zoorastrians, and settled in India to become one ofthe most properous and innovative communities there - a benefit to both them and India. Lets leave them be.
Alright Alpha,
If you want me to start right here, fine by me!
Quran and the prophecies of Reform among the Ummah:
048.028
YUSUFALI: It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness.
009.033
YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).
061.009
YUSUFALI: It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).
You will say, it does not prove that any other person will revive the religion, its just a promise... But lets see
062.002
YUSUFALI: It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-
062.003
YUSUFALI: As well as (to confer all these benefits upon)others of them, who have not already joined them : And He is exalted in Might, Wise.
062.004
YUSUFALI: Such is the Bounty of Allah, which He bestows on whom He will: and Allah is the Lord of the highest bounty.
Here is a Bukhari Hadith on the commentary of last three verses i have quoted:
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 420:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
While we were sitting with the Prophet Surat Al-Jumu'a was revealed to him, and when the Verse, "And He (Allah) has sent him (Muhammad) also to other (Muslims).....' (62.3) was recited by the Prophet, I said, "Who are they, O Allah's Apostle?" The Prophet did not reply till I repeated my question thrice. At that time, Salman Al-Farisi was with us. So Allah's Apostle put his hand on Salman, saying, "If Faith were at (the place of) Ath-Thuraiya (pleiades, the highest star), even then (some men or man from these people (i.e. Salman's folk) would attain it."
Ahadith on Isa and Mahdi being the same and from the Ummah:
Bukhari: Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.
“The Mahdi is none other than the Messiah, the son of Mary.” Sunan Ibn Majah (4039)
Sahih Muslim: Book 001, Number 0292:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: What would you do when the son of Mary would descend amongst you and would lead you as one amongst you? Ibn Abi Dhi'b on the authority of Abu Huraira narrated: Your leader amongst you. Ibn Abi Dhi'b said: Do you know what the words:" He would lead as one amongst you" mean? I said: Explain these to me. He said: He would lead you according to the Book of your: Lord (hallowed be He and most exalted) and the Sunnah of your Apostle (may peace be upon him).
This is Quran and Hadith, Contrary to your views that, a massiah will physically descend upon mankind.