Yes I have.. Ask yourself the same question. I presume you are a sunni.
Re: Re: Something that always bothers me..
Changez_like…
…maybe that’s the case in Pakistan particularly coz i have seen Shia mullahs saying our ‘Sunni brothers’…haven’t seen a shia mullah calling Sunnis kafir
Re: Something that always bothers me..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
In Pakistan, why are Sunnis and Shias Muslims and Ahmadis are not??
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It's npt only in Pakistan.
Re: Re: Re: Something that always bothers me..
You may not have seen, I have. “Sunni brothers”, “Shia brothers” are also terms used by both sects about others but not by all.
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*Originally posted by Destino: *
Yes I have.. Ask yourself the same question. I presume you are a sunni.
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Sunnis believe that Essa AH (Jesus) will not return as "Prophet", rather a follower of Prophet Mohammed PBUH.
Changez yar, at least get your own facts straight. Sunnis believe when Hazrat Esa (as) return, he will be a prophet, but because he was a prophet before AnHazoor (saw) that's why it's ok.
If you don’t believe in that you are refusing the words of Holy Prophet s.a.w according to sahih ahadith.
Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 7015: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/041.smt.html#041.7015
**Allah’s Apostle, Jesus, ** and his companions would then come down to the earth and they would not find in the earth as much space as a single span which is not filled with their putrefaction and stench. **Allah’s Apostle, Jesus, ** and his companions would then again beseech Allah, Who would send birds whose necks would be like those of bactrin camels and they would carry them and throw them where God would will.
Then Allah would send rain which no house of clay or (the tent of) camels’ hairs would keep out and it would wash away the earth until it could appear to be a mirror.
There is a long narration in Bukhari. I have edited if for brevity you can read it on this link.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/060.sbt.html#006.060.003
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 3:
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection the Believers will assemble and say, ‘Let us ask somebody to intercede for us with our Lord.’ So they will go to Adam and . … … ‘Go to the Khalil–r-Rahman (i.e. Abraham).’ They will go to him and he will say, ‘I am not fit for this undertaking. Go to Moses, the slave to whom Allah spoke (directly) and gave him the Torah .’ So they will go to him and he will say, ‘I am not fit for this undertaking.’ and he will mention (his) killing a person who was not a killer, and so he will feel ashamed thereof before his Lord, and he will say, 'Go to Jesus, Allah’s Slave, His Apostle and Allah’s Word and a Spirit coming from Him . Jesus will say, ‘I am not fit for this undertaking, go to Muhammad the Slave of Allah whose past and future sins were forgiven by Allah.’ So they will come to me and I will proceed till I will ask my Lord’s Permission and I will be given permission
So according to Quran and Hadith, Jesus is not leaving his Prophethood anywhere..
Not one of the sources you have posted suggest that Isa bin Maryam (as) will return with a new deen or a new kalam. He will not even lead the prays that the Imam of the time will be leading…
And most importantly of all, the sources you have quted are not a blessing for any tom dick or abdullah to go and claim nabowat and kalam.
before this thread derails, ... my request to participants and mods.
Please stay focused. THINK.. do not regurgitate what you have been told to believe.. tell us in your own words and understanding what is so utterly 'non-muslim' about the Ahmadi sect.
To be a Muslim you have to believe in certain things.. what do YOU think they are?? and why do you think any sect should be forced to denounce their Islam because of pressure from other sects?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Alpha1: *
Not one of the sources you have posted suggest that Isa bin Maryam (as) will return with a new deen or a new kalam. He will not even lead the prays that the Imam of the time will be leading.....
And most importantly of all, the sources you have quted are not a blessing for any tom dick or abdullah to go and claim nabowat and kalam.
[/QUOTE]
Thats another issue.. but your statement that
"Sunnis believe that Essa AH (Jesus) will not return as "Prophet", rather a follower of Prophet Mohammed PBUH."
is not right... So, the claim that Ahmadis can be ruled outside the pale of islam is baseless, and clear bigotry.
Destino, what you have posted only tells that Jesus AH is a Prophet, it does not suggest that he will return as a Prophet. Read closely.
Ahmadjee: my facts are pretty much right. Sunnis believe in return of Prophet Essa AH as a follower of Prophet Mohammed PBUH and not a Prophet himself.
Changez bhai, maybe you can enlighten us with the Hadiths that says he will not return as a prophet.
This is from what I know and i can be mistaken. The mahdi will be a simple ruler, however 'Isa aleyhesalam would return as Prophet. he will follow and enforce the message as brought down by the Prophet Muhammad sallalahu aleyhe wasallam. I dont know for sure.. i'll check up on this.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ammarr: *
This is from what I know and i can be mistaken. The mahdi will be a simple ruler, however 'Isa aleyhesalam would return as Prophet. he will follow and enforce the message as brought down by the Prophet Muhammad sallalahu aleyhe wasallam. I dont know for sure.. i'll check up on this.
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Jesus is a prophet peace be upon him and will remain so it doesnt matter that just because he returns after Muhammed peace be upon him that he's like the next Prophet with a new message or something his coming means that the end is nigh.
^yes thats what I meant as well.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
Changez bhai, maybe you can enlighten us with the Hadiths that says he will not return as a prophet.
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I'll try to find that one, in the meantime you can find the hadith which says that he'll return as a prophet.
If one carefuly read the Hadith quoted by Mr destino in one of his previous mail that it is talking about the return of Jesus and as an apostle of Allah:
I am again quoting this Hadith (only a portion):
[QUOTE]
... and it would at this very time that ** Allah would send Christ, son of Mary , and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damscus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. Every non-believer who would smell the odour of his self would die and his breath would reach as far as he would be able to see. He would then search for him (Dajjal) until he would catch hold of him at the gate of Ludd and would kill him. Then a people whom Allah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe their faces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under such conditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah would send Gog and Magog and they would swarm down from every slope. The first of them would pass the lake of Tibering and drink out of it. And when the last of them would pass, he would say: There was once water there. Jesus and his companions would then be besieged here (at Tur, and they would be so much hard pressed) that the head of the ox would be dearer to them than one hundred dinirs and ** Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would supplicate Allah, Who would send to them insects (which would attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish like one single person. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then come down to the earth and they would not find in the earth as much space as a single span which is not filled with their putrefaction and stench. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then again beseech Allah, Who would send birds whose necks would be like those of bactrin camels and they would carry them and throw them where God would will.
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It is clearly evident from the above Hadith of Sahih Muslim that Jesus would be an apostle of Allah on his return.
And in Sunan Abu Dawood:
[QUOTE]
Book 37, Number 4310: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.
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And while mentioning day of ressurection, A Hadith in Sahih Bukhari:
[QUOTE]
The Prophet said, "The believers will be kept (waiting) on the Day of Resurrection so long that they will become worried and say, "Let us ask somebody to intercede far us with our Lord so that He may relieve us from our place.
...... They will go to Moses who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He will mention his mistake he made, i.e., killing a person, and will say (to them), 'Go to ** Jesus, Allah's slave and His Apostle**, and a soul created by Him and His Word.' (Be: And it was.) They will go to Jesus who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking but you'd better go to Muhammad the slave whose past and future sins have been forgiven by Allah.' So they will come to me, and I will ask my Lord's permission to enter His House and then I will be permitted.
[/QUOTE]
Now if jesus would be an Allah's apostle before the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) and also at the day of ressurrection, how come he would not be one during the times in-between?
Mr. Chingez like if you read my first post carefully and follow the link to first hadith, from muslim, that i posted (which is about second coming of jesus and end of the world) you will know what i meant.
Secondly, there is no evidence in Quran of Hadith that tells the jesus is still alive in the heaven. And you just can't label anyone kafir on
a) if he/she believes in the possibility of a Prophet after the Katim un Nabiyyeen (for refrom within islam only)
b) he/she believes jesus is dead.
The point of believing that someone can attain the status of being an "ummati" prophet can not be proven to be a reason for declaring someone kafir.
Changez Bhai,
I have talked to many Maulanas, with different size beards and different colored caps; they all had their own story about how Hazrat Isa (as) transformed and went to heaven, what is he doing these days & when/how/where will he return but they all agree that he was a prophet, he is a prophet & he will be a prophet.
If you find the Hadiths that proves them wrong, please do let me know!
If you are concerned that admitting that might mean a contradiction to the common understanding of Khatam-e-Nabuwat, then rest assured that the Sunni belief has a work around, as explained by aysha above. Which really translates down to - it really doesn’t matter.
And which brings us all back to PA’s question where he can’t seem to understand the difference of beliefs in Sunni vs. Ahmadis interpretation. Prophet following Islam from the Biblical ages or prophet following Islam born today.. is pretty much the same in his understanding, and so he asks why one is considered non-Muslim while the other isn’t.
He concludes that it’s a “majority rules” system, which has nothing to do with beliefs.
Assalam o Aliekum
So what am i missing here. Anyone can update me. Is this the discussion if there is prophet after Holy Prophet (saw) or Isa (as) is going to be a prophet.