So what exactly was Mirza?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Mr. Perplexing,
Let me take something out of context from your post.

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The words are added as you wished.
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Mr.perplexing admitts that he is messing around with the reference texts that he posts. he says that he adds the words according to someones wishes..

now that is a good example of taking things out of context...

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The words are added as you wished. Does that mean that the challenge has changed. Does it not still mean that not a single Lesson in Quran AND Hadith AND Tafseer.....???
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no. Mr. perplexing was presenting his argument in the "context" of something which was being discussed "then"...

in this case promised Massiah (as) wrote
""This is absolutely rubbish and illogical thing that the mother tongue of a person is different and the revelation is sent in a different tongue , which he can even not understand"..

I posted the next lines in my post..

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"So according to this arya samaj principle, the language of "rishis" (prophets) according to vedas (hindu scripture)was not sanskrit and they could even not speak or understand it, then (apparently) God sending them revelations in a foriegn language seems to be a deliberate plot to keep them unaware of His message. Then they say that God taught them the real message in their own mother tongue on what those scriptures meant, then this "promise" of God to them is broken that He will never communicate in human language."
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now your question is that

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Mirza Sahib has the philosophy that if the revelation is in a different language then GOD is purposely keeping them away from the message right...???Mirza Sahib has the philosophy that if the revelation is in a different language then GOD is purposely keeping them away from the message right...???

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If a revelation is intended to be a part of scripture.. Quran, old and new testament..etc it has to be in a language which people can understand easity.. i.e, hebrew, Arabic...
What is written in Nuzule Maseeh is about ilhamaat.. which are prophetic in nature (prophecies).. they are communications from God.

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Would you like to differentiate between the two WAHIS. where does this come from and where is this rule stating that one can be in different languages opposed to the other...???
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I am sure you must be aware of different forms of Wahi..

Wahi of Quran..

Hadith e Qudsi (which is not part of Quran).

Wahi to a honey bee.

Wahi to promised Massiah (according to Sahih muslim)..

so do you mean that Wahi to honeybee should also be included in scriptures?
Or ahaithe Qudsi should also be given the status of Quran??
Or will jesus (according to your beliefs) comes back and recieves Wahi (According to sahih muslim hadith) that will also be included in Quran.. or will it be called some other new book??
Dhul Qarnain also recieved revelations.. are they in the form of scripture..some commentators say that dhul qarnain is Alexander the great.. so should he be called a Prophet?? (our view is that Dhul Qaranian was Cyrus the great and not Alexander btw)

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Perplexing: *

(Chashma-e-Ma'arifat p.209, Roohani Khazain vol.23 p.218) Mirza Sahib uses the word Ilham on this page......He further at the latreal part of the page states an example saying that Allah (Samjha day)GUIDES us with his SIGNS ( I am assuming this encompases the whole Wahi-e-scriptures and wahi-e-Ilham) because he guides us in both ways....right???

*Ok Observe he says that GOD Listens to our prayers in our own languages and it does not disgrace him any. (meaning what...??? Mirza Sahib is against the concept of communicating with GOD in languages that are not understood by the person)

*He talks about Quran being in the Language of the people, at that time and talks about the audience of the Quran, Quraish(I am sure Quran is Wahi-e-scripture according to you). Mirza Sahib says that all the books were revealed to people according to their relative language.....What would be the reason for him to give an example of Quran.....???
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The Arya argument is that Sanskrit is the language of God.. and his scriprure are in the same language too..
Promised Massiah (as) said that God sends his commands in the language that people understand (in the scriptures)..
It is very simple.. i don't know what do you find so complex in this book (chashma e ma'arfat).. i recommend you read the few pages before this one to get an idea about the argument being presented..

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So let me get this straight "Mirza Sahib is saying that the Wahi-scripture that is supposed to be part of a Book has to be in the language that the person understands and if the Wahi is not to be included in a book as a scripture (Wahi-e-Ilham) then it can be in different languages...???

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^yes any form of language.. signs.. indications.. dreams..
There is a hadith that Dreams are the 40th part of prophethood..

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
^yes any form of language.. signs.. indications.. dreams..
There is a hadith that Dreams are the 40th part of prophethood..
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Can you please be more clear about my question....Is it exactly how I said it..??

and is there wahi revealed to Mirza Sahib as scripture.....???

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
^yes any form of language.. signs.. indications.. dreams..
There is a hadith that Dreams are the 40th part of prophethood..
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Can you please be more clear about my question....Is it exactly how I said it in my previous post..??

and is there wahi revealed to Mirza Sahib as scripture.....???

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Ilhaam is a form of wahi the purpose of which is divine communication. Scriptures are sent to prophets in the form of wahi. As i have mentioned earlier animals like honeybee are also sent wahi (which means that God has instructed animals to do their function in the world). True dream are also from God, hence a form of Wahi..

and the answer to your second question is that No, Promised Massiah (as) never recieved any wahi of that kind (scriptural).. He was Prophet in the sense that he recieved divine communications (ilhamaat).. any person who claims to recieve scriptures is a liar.. as Kaatimun Nabiyyeen verse makes it clear.

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[quote]
If a revelation is intended to be a part of scripture.. Quran, old and new testament..etc it has to be in a language which people can understand easity.. i.e, hebrew, Arabic...
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It has to be in a Language that people understand easily or it has to be in a language that the person who is receiving the revelation has to understand....???

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[quote]
and the answer to your second question is that No, Promised Massiah (as) never recieved any wahi of that kind (scriptural).. He was Prophet in the sense that he recieved divine communications (ilhamaat).. any person who claims to recieve scriptures is a liar.. as Kaatimun Nabiyyeen verse makes it clear.

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Then what is Brahn-e-Ahmadiya?

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Brahin e Ahmadiyya is a large work of a such a scholarly level that even the worst adversaries of Promised Massiah admitt to its calibre.
there are five volumes of the book encompassing a wide range of issues..
The revelations (ilhamaat) in the book have been recorded by promised Massiah (as).. and they are significant for the study of the claim of Promised Massiah in the light of God's words. There are prophecies and guidence and reassurance from God..

They are not scriptures..

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ok now I kinda sorta undersatand this whole scripture thing but there is still something that is confusing to me.

*Why would some one have revelations (Mirza Sahib has used the word Ilham and does not make any distinction between the types) in languages that he can not comprehend. He is saying that this would stop the propagation of the Message.

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This was the Arya belief on Vedas.. that Vedas were revealed in sanskrit and the rishis to whom they were revealed did not understand that language..
The reason why Promised Massiah (as) did not specify the type of ilham is because he was addressing arya samaj people.. and the matter was understood as revelations as in scriptures.. thats why i say that one must read the background of the passages given on many anti-ahmadiyya sites.. as in all cases, they deliberately make the statements as vague as possible, by taking out the passages from some discussion and then associating with some other passages in some other discussion.. and try to confuse people..

it is very easy to do.. all i ask you is to read the the passages in proper context.. and then come up with questions.. i am sure then it will be alot easier to understand..

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
This was the Arya belief on Vedas.. that Vedas were revealed in sanskrit and the rishis to whom they were revealed did not understand that language..
The reason why Promised Massiah (as) did not specify the type of ilham is because he was addressing arya samaj people.. and the matter was understood as revelations as in scriptures.. thats why i say that one must read the background of the passages given on many anti-ahmadiyya sites.. as in all cases, they deliberately make the statements as vague as possible, by taking out the passages from some discussion and then associating with some other passages in some other discussion.. and try to confuse people..

it is very easy to do.. all i ask you is to read the the passages in proper context.. and then come up with questions.. i am sure then it will be alot easier to understand..
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Destino I understand all this, I try to read one page before and after the sited reference before posting any questions....what I am asking you is...."Why would some one have revelations (Mirza Sahib has used the word Ilham and does not make any distinction between the types) in languages that he can not comprehend. He is saying that this would stop the propagation of the Message.

This is what Mirza Sahib has claimed, as he recives Wahis in different languages that he does not understand, then he has to go asking for the meaning for them...

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Those ilhamaat in different languages are recorded at different places.. some of them have been explained.. some of them were prophecies and languages used (like english) were explained with having some significance to the subject of the prophecy. some still have not been explained.. there are thousands of revelations, out of which many are left unexplained.. but many of them have come true at different times..
And many are related to future.. and their significance will be known when the time comes..

the message that you are referring to belongs to the argument on Arya samaj issue.. the message as in the scripture..

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[quote]
so do you mean that Wahi to honeybee should also be included in scriptures?
Or ahaithe Qudsi should also be given the status of Quran??
Or will jesus (according to your beliefs) comes back and recieves Wahi (According to sahih muslim hadith) that will also be included in Quran.. or will it be called some other new book??

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Can you please give me an authentic reference where Wahi is described as to a Honey Bee and the meaning of Wahi as you understand?

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Mr Destino I found the Honey Bee thing you were talking about. I also found some other things as far as Wahi is concerned. Please read....

The word Wahi has a literal meaning and is also used as a term. It is used in the literal meaning (to put something in the mind) in the verse you have referred to. As a term, it is used in the Qur’an at many instances. When used as a term, it means * religious guidance provided by the Almighty to His messengers**.
So one must try to determine when a word is used literally and when it is used as a term. Such variation in usage is very customary for many other Arabic words as well. Take the case of the word Zakah for example. As a term, it means a prescribed amount given in the way of Allah to obtain purity of heart and to obtain the blessings of Allah. Literally speaking, however, the word Zakah, in Arabic, has two meanings: ‘purity’ and ‘growth’. The words ‘purify them’ in the first and ‘people who will increase their wealth’ in the second verse of the Qur’an quoted below indicate these two meanings of the word:

Take alms from their wealth [O Prophet!] in order to cleanse them and purify them with it. (9:103)

And that which you give as loan on interest in order that it may increase on other people’s wealth has no increase with Allah; but that which you give as Zakah, seeking Allah’s countenance, it is these people who will increase their wealth [in the Hereafter]. (30:39)

In other words, in these two verses, the word Zakah is used in its two literal meanings and not used as a term.*

This was one example of Wahi.

This is what Allah has to say about Wahi.

It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by (1) Wahi or (2) from behind a veil or (3) by sending a messenger of His that he inspires (Wahi) by His leave what He Wills” (XLII:51)

The Verse points out to only two modes of “wahi” (revelation); (i) communication through wahi, and (ii) communication from behind the veil. Then there are two types of communication by wahi: (a) wahi without a medium, which is called ilham or ilqa, and (b) wahi through the medium of an angel. Prophet SAW recieved Wahi with a Medium (Gabriel) for the revelation of Quran.

Destino read Haqiqa-tul Wahi Vol 22 Roohani Khazain pages 50-55 Mirza Sahib talks about different types of Wahi, he has illustrated three types and none of those three are "Wahi-e-Scriptures". He does not distinguish between Ilham or Wahi. Which I am sure you found as well after hearing Mirza Tahir's audio file (difference between Ilham and Wahi).

Now read this....

*And just as I believe in the Quran, similarly without a difference of a dot I believe in that WAHI which has come to me.... And I can swear standing in the Holy Ka'aba that the Pious Wahi that comes to me is the Word of the same God who had sent it to Hazrat Musa and Hazrat Eisa and Hazrat Muhammad pbuh." (Eik Ghalti ka Azala, Roohani Khazain vol.18 p.210)

"I say with swearing upon God that I believe in these inspirations in the same way as I believe in Quran and other books of God. And just as I consider Quran undoubtedly and surely the book of God, similarly I believe that that wahi which descends upon me is the word of God." (Haqeetqatul Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol.22 p.220)

"I have similar faith in my Wahi as on Holy Quran and Torah." (Arba'een No.4 , Roohani Khazain vol.17 p.454)*

Why does he say all this...???
what I have concluded is the following...

*Quran is the word of GOD and revealed to the Prophet SAW in his own Language.....so it was understood by the people of the time and Prophet himself....

*How can you teach me something that the meaning of which you yourself do not understand...???

*Quran was meant for the people of time and for the rest of the times....for propagation if Islam...(scriptures according to you).

*Mirza Sahib's WAHIs are the same as Quran in the sense that they are true, from GOD and are used to propagate Islam for the Ahmadi-Muslims. Are these Ilhams not acted opon as the word of GOD..??

*In past Fateh Ahmad Sahib has answered alot of my Questions, saying that the Prophecies were from Tadkhira the book of Ilhams and they are just dreams compiled and they do not mean anything more then that.....well according to Mirza Sahib he has Ilhams which are associated to the people that acquire the state of HAQUL-YAQEEN. Which are from Allah. Then how can they be just Dreams which are not true. (Note that Mirza Sahib has used the words Ilham and Wahi interchangebly).

P.S. No where did I find the Wahi-e-scripture rule. Since Mirza Sahib's Nubuwat is MINHAJE Nubuwate Muhammad SAW. It would not be a weird thing to ask if Prophet SAW ever had any Wahi/Ilhams in other languages which he did not understand.

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You quoted the following verse.. giving only three ways of revelation.

So where do dreams come in this scenrio?

Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:

Narrated 'Aisha:

(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah’s Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family.

obviously the verse you mentioned must have other modes of revelations as well, which can be derived by understand the meanings of this verse..

Like when a honeybee is bestowed with the revelaions (wahi). which one of the three modes have been used to that purpose??
The book “haqeeqat ul Wahi” explains divine inspirations to different categories of people.. Even worse people on earth can be recipients of Inspiration. they can have true dreams..and a vision (kashaf).
There is a very famous narration in muslim history that during the battle of ditch, companions were digging when a rock came in their way. Then Prophet :saw: struck the rock with the shovel and there were sparks, and Prophet :saw: said that he saw visions of different keys to treasuries belonging to all the powerfull kings of the world given to him.. That is inspiration too..
Similarly when the jew woman tried to poison Prophet :saw: he was informed just at the moment of what was in the food.. What possibly could be the way.. we don’t know.. but there are many different ways of divine inspirations..

The ilhamaat which were in other languages did not contain any teachings.. they were prophetic in nature…and we need not to understand a prophecy.. remember the incident of Hudaybiya.. the dream was the Prophet :saw and companions were going to perform Hajj.. which did not happen..

The ilhamaat of Promised Massiah (as) were addressed to him.. Quran addresses the whole human race..

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yaar .i would like to add one more thing…isnt it that mirza died in bathroom…mirza converted a bathroom into his brainstorming place and where mr TE-CHE T-CHE (the one who mr qadiani said as brought the wahi..)came…so it is more starnage that a person claiming to be nabi died of cholrea in bathroom…

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Sir if you dont have right Information how Hz Masih Maood :as: died then why you guyz spread lies against him??

Just see the Original quote and tell me did he REALLY died nauzubillah min zalik in toilet?? and see also the last words of him!!!
"ALLAH "

[thumb=B]wisal.JPG[/thumb]

here is also the english translation:

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I have been extremely busy with work and school but I will return soon Inshallah and pick from where we left off.