So what exactly was Mirza?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by insha_ji: *

Keeping this example in mind. Knowing Holy Quran and Hadith is differnet then Understanding of Holy Quran and Hadith. I am sure you will agree on this.

So when Hazret Sahib said NO one taught me Quran and hadith. He means that no one taught him the Understanding and Knowldage within Holy Quran and Hadith.

Your argument is he is wrong cuz he had teachers. Those teacher taught him how to read the Holy Quran. Reading Quran doesnt mean you understand Quran.

[/QUOTE]

Now there is another twist in the story. This is the third time that you guys are changing the meanings of his statement. First tried to skip the word OR and now this...... keep it up, your Mirza's falsehood exposes more and more, more you go into details.

Its way of explaining..

Holy Quran also say that. We mention things again and agian in different ways so it might be that some wise man can get the meaning of it in a different way.

If you say that to us then u actualy saying Holy Quran does the same thing as well..

It occurs to me that smooth guy u do not have the wisdom and knowledge of religion what so ever. all you can do is speak the filth which the mullahs had made agaist us. not knowing the reality your self. You couldnt even respond to any of our questions wrather escape from them and try to throw more alligation. First look where u stand before you enter into an argument.

[QUOTE]
keep it up, your Mirza's falsehood exposes more and more, more you go into details.
[/QUOTE]

Its not the falsehood but your brain that cant grasp what is written there. And when we say go read it your self on the website provided you dont bother to do so. Simple reason is you just dont want to know what the reality is only want to satisfy your false ego.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by insha_ji: *

Its not the falsehood but your brain that cant grasp what is written there. And when we say go read it your self on the website provided you dont bother to do so. Simple reason is you just dont want to know what the reality is only want to satisfy your false ego.
[/QUOTE]

That is correct! He cannot reason because to do that would be to -WAKE UP!

He should be researching own own sunni or wahabi creed and its 'hatred, violence' packaged as 'deen of allah'!

It is all laid out in our great books of bukhari, muslim, ahmed et al.

[quote]
He should be researching own own sunni or wahabi creed and its 'hatred, violence' packaged as 'deen of allah'!

It is all laid out in our great books of bukhari, muslim, ahmed et al.

[/quote]

*Mr. Hafeez you made a similar remark on the other Thread and I asked u a question about it....

*What are you trying to say in this Post....???

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by insha_ji: *

Its not the falsehood but your brain that cant grasp what is written there. And when we say go read it your self on the website provided you dont bother to do so. Simple reason is you just dont want to know what the reality is only want to satisfy your false ego.
[/QUOTE]

*Its not about false egos its about what I understand is different from what you understand.......

*Same could be applied to you about it.

[quote]
Go read the above mentioned page. Decide for your self what does he mean. he goes in extreme length to prove he is the same person. he even says that he(Mirza Sahib) has the same qualities in him as the Prophet SAW did. Now observe he says ALL QUALITIES not teachings. That would also mean the power of speaking comprehensively.

quote:

The miracle of Prophet Muhammad was complete and one of a kind..which can not be given to anyother human being.. It is the greatness of the Prophet .


Destino, do me a favor before you start answering any of the Questions.....clear your mind and think for a second that this is not a war between me and you. No one is goin to win this or lose. Actually I hope for your sake that I lose, if you do consider this a battle. If you do not see any of my points as valid, then I will not post anything after this on this issue.

[/quote]

Destino did you go read that page...???

I think one of my posts went unread.. here it is again..

[QUOTE]
^ and on the same page 149, Ruhani Khazain..
and there is only one living Prophet in the world i.e. Muhammad ."

Which means that the teachings and message of holy Prophet is the only living message which will be enforced again by Mahdi and Massiah..
[/QUOTE]

can you feel the love people!!!!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
I think one of my posts went unread.. here it is again..

[/QUOTE]

You are running away from the Question.

  • According to your previous post.... * The miracle of Prophet Muhammad was complete and one of a kind..which can not be given to anyother human being.. It is the greatness of the Prophet .*

Look at what I have posted.....

*Go read the above mentioned page. Decide for your self what does he mean. he goes in extreme length to prove he is the same person. he even says that he(Mirza Sahib) has the same qualities in him as the Prophet SAW did. Now observe he says ALL QUALITIES not teachings. That would also mean the power of speaking comprehensively.
*

*There are places he has said that he is the same Prophet SAW.

*There are Places where he has said that he is an AKS of Prophet SAW.

*There are places where he has said he is A ZILLI Nabi.

*There are places where he has said he is a BAROOZI Nabi.

  • I also told you that Mirza Sahib changes his stance very frequently on things.

*The thing about one Prophet SAW being alive in the world, holds true even if Mirza Sahib claims to be the re-encarnation of Prophet. When he said that statement, Mirza was alive himself and Prophet SAW was not

*You tell me does'nt this seem strange...Mirza goes from being Mujadid to Nabi (even that of 10 different types) to Promissed Mesiah to Maseel Ibne-Maryam, to Re-encanation of Lord Karishna to Re-encarnation of Moses, Adam, Noah, to Mehdi......

  • Go read that page that I have refered to and I am sure you would at least put your pride down and agree that Mirza Sahib is trying very hard to convince the readers that he is the same Prophet SAW. * I have said several times that according to the verse (of Holy Quran) 'wa akhareena minhum lamma yalhaqoo behim' as Burooz I am the same Prophet, the Khatamul Anbiyyah, and 20 years ago God named me Mohammed and Ahmad in Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya and declared me His Being.(Aik ghalti ka azala, Roohani Khazain vol. 18 p.212) "*

Mr. Perplexing,
The concept f reincarnation that pops into your mind is hindu concept.. nothing like the islamic philosophy (which has a spiritual significance).
Here is what you are thinking :“The word “reincarnation” literally means to “come again in the flesh.” The process of reincarnation - continual rebirths in human bodies”
^wrong concept..

To understand the concept of having a revivor and a reformer who is a messenger, Promised Massiah (as) wrote the book that you are quoting.. Its called “aik ghalti ka azala”..this is written to clear out the confusions in the minds of people who take things out of perspective.
I will translate the first few pages of the book (a novice translation).. read them first and in the light of this ask me the same questions again..

“fact is that the words of nabi, mursal (messenger),rusool are present in the blessed revelations endowed upon me;not once by many hundred times. Then how can someone say that these words are not present (in my books).Infact they are present with much more clarity now, then they were before (in earlier years). and in Braheen e Ahmadiyya which has been published 20-22 years ago contails many such words…” (Aik ghalti ka aqala Page 206)

“so in the same way I have been mentioned as a messenger (rusool) in braheen e ahmadiyya in many places. so if someone says that Muhammad :saw is khatimun nabiyyeen, then how can a prophet can come after him. The answer to this is that no prophet either new or old can come in this way. Like when you bring jesus (as) back, and maintain his status as a prophet, and then your belief is that he stays here for 40 years as a prophet and his time exceeds (that of prophethood) from the time of Holy Prophet.No doubt that such a belief is sinfull,and according to the verse “walakin rusoolullah e wa khatimun nabiyyeen” and hadith “la nabiya ba’adi” this is an absolutely false belief. We are totally against such beliefs. And we believe in this verse completely and truely, and when it is said walakin rusoolullah e wa khatimun nabiyyeen”, there is a prophecy in this verse,which our oppnents are not aware of. and which is that the doors of prophecy, after Holy Prophet :saw: are closed untill judgement day. And this is not possible that any hindu or jew or christian or superficial (rasmi??) muslim can prove himself to be a prophet. All the windows of Prophethood are closed except for the window of “seerat e Siddiqui”. which means “fina fir rusool”. So anyone who comes near to God through this window, he is wrapped with the clothes (chaadar??) as a Zilli Nabi, this “chaadar” is actually of the Prophethoot of Muhammad :saw, so such prophethood is not a place of pride (ghairat), as he has achieved not from his own self but from the spring of Prophethood of Muhammad saw. not for his own self but for the grandeur of his Prophet :saw:. That is why his name in the heavens is Muhammad and Ahmad, that means the Muhammad’s :saw: prophethood was bestowed on Muhammad :saw as a result…"

Promised Massiah (as) writes further
"so my being a prophet and a messenger is through being Muhammad and Ahmad and not due to my own self. and this name is given to me because of me being “fina fir rusool”. So the meaning of Khatimun Nabiyyeen (seal of prophets) stays the same. But descent of Isa (as) will definitely cause a difference to the meanings. I must remind you that the meanings of “nabi” according to dictionary are “someone who recieves revelations from God and informant of the Unseen” so when this meaning comes true so does the word “nabi’ is applied as well. and Nabi is bound to be a “rasool” (messenger) as well, because if one is not a “rusool” he cannot get the revelation of the unseen (ghaib e musaffa?).and this verse denies it; “la yazhuru ala ghibihi alaa ahaddam illa min irtarza am minar rusooli” (al-jin 27-28). So if we deny the prophethood after Holy Prophet then it is necessary that we must also believe that this ummat is devoid of any communications (mukaalimaat o mukhatibaat e ilaahiyya) from God. Becasue to whoever these communications are revealed must be a prophet according to “la yazhuru (al-jin 27-28). And in the same way whoever is sent from God will be called a Rusool. The only difference is that there will be no Prophet after Holy Prophet :saw: who will bring any new Shariah, or such a person who is without the intercession (tawassut) of holy Prophet :saw:, and without the state of f"fina firr rusool” as he is named Muhammad and Ahmad in heavens, no one can be given the status of a prophet.” (pages 208, 209)

and on page 209 Promised Massiah (as) has written
“so it must be remembered that I do not deny being a prophet or a rusool accordin to the above condions. And in Sahih muslim Maseeh e maood (promised Massiah) is called as a Nabi. So if a person who recieves the revelations from God can’t be called a nabi, then tell me what should he be called??”

(p.s. All the above are my own translations..very novice and may have many errors.. please refer to www.alfazal.org for the original text to match).

OK tell me one thing…and this is serious, partially related ot the topic when it comes to evaluate him being whatever he thought he was.

Can a prophet/messiah/whatever die in Cholera with bed sheet full of **** and vomiting ???

Our Prophet :saw: died reciting ‘Allahuma rafiqal Ala’ or Allah is the best friend…showing the excitement to meet Allah swt. Where as Mirza sahib couldn’t talk in his last two hours in this world and died like that with his wife and doctors around him.

May Allah give you guys hidayaat so you can open your eyes and see the sign that Allah showed in this world.

^instead of posting your filthy lies, why don't you go to the other threads that you have started and answer my questions there...

When promised Massiah (as) passed away he was saying"mairay pyaray Allah".. and stick to the topic on hand here.. i think you can pack your filth in and stay like that..

Calling me liar :) good one!
Check out the filth from your own books. Need more references???? Tell me. OK.

"When i reached Hazrat Saheb and saw his condition, then he addressed me and said:
'MIR SAHEB. I HAVE DEVELOPED EPIDEMIC CHOLERA'.
I think After that He (MIRZA) did not say anything clear till he died next day at 10 am."
(Hayat-e-Nasir, p.14)

Other thing worth noting was that his last words were 'I have Epidemic Cholera' according to his father in law and not Kalima or the name of Allah. You can imagine the realization that must have dawn on Mirza Ghulam at that final moment that finally he has been struck by the most dreadful sign of God's Anger - Cholera - and worst part of this realization was that God sealed his tongue and lips with intense dehydration so that he had no chance of repenting from his fabrications/lies
and no chance of uttering the Kalima. What a punishment!

"Huzoor could not talk two hours before death. Dr Mirza Yaqoob Baig and Dr Syed Mohammed Hussein Shah were the treating physician. Huzoor asked for paper and wrote on it: I have too much dryness. I can't talk." and some other words he scribbled which could not be read."
(Statement of 'SAHABI' of Mirza Ghulam Mohammed Sadiq Qadiani, Akhbar alFazl Qadian, vol.25 No.274, dated 24th November 1937)

And please do not blame me for this. This is from your own books, I said nothing by my own, so why do personal attacks

Mr. Destino. We will continue discussion on the topic of this re-encarnation. But I would like to keep couple of things goin at one time, might be more efficient....

WHat do you to think about my following so called ALLEGATOIN....
*
"This is absolutely rubbish and illogical thing that the mother tongue of a person is different and the revelation is sent in a different tongue , which he can even not understand, because in this there is too much difficulty and what is the use of such a revelation which is beyond human understanding" (Chashma-e-Ma'arifat p.209, Roohani Khazain vol.23 p.218)
*
Then read this....
*
"This is most amazing that certain revelations are sent to me in those languages about which I have absolutely no knowledge like English, Sanskrit or Hebrew etc." (Nuzool-e-Maseeh p.57, Roohani Khazain vol.18 p.435)
*

^again a perfect example of statement taken grossly out of context.. the fist passage is just a little fraction of a long answer to different "arya samaj" a hindu sect's questions about religion and philosophy of religion.. the book in which these answers is called "chashma e ma'arfat" and it can be found on www.alfazal.org, ruhani khazain, vol 23.

The question from the arya samaj people was that Sanskrit is the language of God, thats why the vedas are in Sanskrit language.. where as other books, as Quran and bible etc are not in sanskrit languge..

Promised Massiah (as), answered this question by going through the history of Hindu scriptures and explaining the principle of Divine revelation. There is something very important missing from the passage you posted.. it is known as CONTEXT.. without whcih you can lable anything with anything.. read on.. the very next line from then on at Page 218 goes

"So according to this arya samaj principle, the language of "rishis" (prophets) according to vedas (hindu scripture)was not sanskrit and they could even not speak or understand it, then (apparently) God sending them revelations in a foriegn language seems to be a deliberate plot to keep them unaware of His message. Then they say that God taught them the real message in their own mother tongue on what those scriptures meant, then this "promise" of God to them is broken that He will never communicate in human language."(chashma e maarfat, RuhaniKhazin vol23, pp. 218) P.s. my own translation, may contain errors.. please refer to www.alfazal.org.

Clearly "scriptures" are being discussed here.. not the "ilhamat" which can also have prophecies..and by "man" in this discussion, human race is meant..as scriptures contain messages for people to follow.
Promised Massiah (as) was a messenger and Prophet in the sense that he recieved prophecies from God.. which were also revealed on him in other languages as well.. You have to seperate the "scriptural Wahi" from "ilhami wahi".

There is a famous english ilham of Promised Massiah (as)..
"I shall give you a Large Party of Islam".

such and many more Ilhamat have been revealed to Promised Massiah (as) in other languages..

the second passage (alleged contradiction), is taken from Nuzul e Maseeh, Ruhani khazain vol 18, page 435..in this part of the book promised Massiah (as) explained how God communicates with him .. on how He guides him.. and inwhat different ways, he recieves "wahi e ilham".. thats a very different thing from the "wahi of scriptures".. their nature is different, and their purposes are different..

Mr. Smooth Guy,

Try to do some rational thinking here.. just read some authentic material on history.. don’t be a liar.. as liar is the one who believes whatever he hears and then tells others about it..

or read this page… its in roman urdu.. you might understand that.. and it also contains an original scanned page from an ahmadi publication on this topic..

http://www.ahmadiyya.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=418

Destino is this your escape goat? Evrytime there is some Question posed your answer starts off with, "Read it in context....."
Context or no context......When some one talks they spill what they have in there head....If you asked me something I would tell you how I feel about a certain issue regardless if it was a direct Question or just a conversation....

He, answering the Question to the Ariya Samaj....is saying

"That this is not benificial if the ILHAM/WAHI is different form the mother tongue of the person receiving it....Meaning what....???

Mirza Sahib has the philosophy that if the revelation is in a different language then GOD is purposely keeping them away from the message right...???
After reading this part of the Answer or the page, does one not get to the conclusion that Mirza Sahib is not in favor of having revelations in different languages.....???

*Don't tell me those words were meant solely for Ariya Samaj. Mirza Sahib can do otherwise....

*If he is just addressing the Ariya Samaj then why this Hypochracy....???

[quote]
the second passage (alleged contradiction), is taken from Nuzul e Maseeh, Ruhani khazain vol 18, page 435..in this part of the book promised Massiah (as) explained how God communicates with him .. on how He guides him.. and inwhat different ways, he recieves "wahi e ilham".. thats a very different thing from the "wahi of scriptures".. their nature is different, and their purposes are different..

[/quote]

Would you like to differentiate between the two WAHIS. where does this come from and where is this rule stating that one can be in different languages opposed to the other...???

[quote]
You have to seperate the "scriptural Wahi" from "ilhami wahi".

[/quote]

(Chashma-e-Ma'arifat p.209, Roohani Khazain vol.23 p.218) Mirza Sahib uses the word Ilham on this page......He further at the latreal part of the page states an example saying that Allah (Samjha day)GUIDES us with his SIGNS ( I am assuming this encompases the whole Wahi-e-scriptures and wahi-e-Ilham) because he guides us in both ways....right???

*Ok Observe he says that GOD Listens to our prayers in our own languages and it does not disgrace him any. (meaning what...??? Mirza Sahib is against the concept of communicating with GOD in languages that are not understood by the person)

*He talks about Quran being in the Language of the people, at that time and talks about the audience of the Quran, Quraish(I am sure Quran is Wahi-e-scripture according to you). Mirza Sahib says that all the books were revealed to people according to their relative language.....What would be the reason for him to give an example of Quran.....???