As i have said earlier that it is a novice translation and i did mention it before.. But the use of the words "muhaddith" and "mufassir" in the very next sentence make it absolutely clear that promised Massiah (as) is referring to thm when he says "Quran or hadith or tafseer"..
while translating i never revised it, as i knew it is still going to be a rought translation.. and the whole text ,the original one, proves that it was referred to the knowledge of tafseer and not Quran we are taught for the first time..
[/QUOTE]
The next sentence says "Ya KISI MUFASSIR YA MUHADDITH KI SHAGIRDI IKHTIYAR KI"
Destino I think you need to go back to Urdu school. The next sentence is startting with YA that means OR in english.Which means its in addition to the previous statement.....meaning Either this or THIS....
Hold on ther eperplexing, before you start assuming things. Have you read the whole translation.. stop criticizing my linguistic abilities, and get on with the topic which is being discussed..
here is the last sentence of the translation i did..
[QUOTE]
And these secrets of Religion (isrrare deen) have been revealed to me directly.
[/QUOTE]
so how many teachers , teach 6-7 years old "israare deen".. how many give them passages of Tafseer e Katheer, or Ghazali to read and comment upon???
The whole passage, if read in urdu makes it clear that the whole thing was addressed on the point that Mahdi will learn the "knowledge of Quran and Hadith" from God.. and the ability to read Arabic text, is not exactly the "israar e deen" here.. everyone can do that.. ask a 6 year old in a muslim household and he will be perfectly able to read Quran..
When i am referring to omissions by mullahs, plesase refer to first post by Smooth Guy, where he has quoted the allegations.... there is mention of word tafseer, no mention of the sentence about mufassireen and muhaditheen, no mention of the word "israare deen".. a deliberate attempt to make you guys believe that some one is claiming that his parents was so irresponsible that they never tried to teach him how to recite Quran when he was a child...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
Hold on ther eperplexing, before you start assuming things. Have you read the whole translation.. stop criticizing my linguistic abilities, and get on with the topic which is being discussed..
here is the last sentence of the translation i did..
so how many teachers , teach 6-7 years old "israare deen".. how many give them passages of Tafseer e Katheer, or Ghazali to read and comment upon???
The whole passage, if read in urdu makes it clear that the whole thing was addressed on the point that Mahdi will learn the "knowledge of Quran and Hadith" from God.. and the ability to read Arabic text, is not exactly the "israar e deen" here.. everyone can do that.. ask a 6 year old in a muslim household and he will be perfectly able to read Quran..
When i am referring to omissions by mullahs, plesase refer to first post by Smooth Guy, where he has quoted the allegations.... there is mention of word tafseer, no mention of the sentence about mufassireen and muhaditheen, no mention of the word "israare deen".. a deliberate attempt to make you guys believe that some one is claiming that his parents was so irresponsible that they never tried to teach him how to recite Quran when he was a child...
no man, you get out of here...
[/QUOTE]
No you Hold on there Buddy! Mirza Sahib changes his claims from one page to the next.....so the same page can have alot of things......
Yes I have read the ISRAARE DEEN part but thats not goin to change the fact that he gave an open challenge under OATH (HULFUN) that he has not had a teacher for Quran now you tell me, is that not in that page????
Why did you change the translation of that sentence to "TAFSEER" of Quran] instead Tafseer Ya Quran.....???? I wonder why??? I know you are well aware of the difference between the two.... Because Mullah Destino wanted to change the claims......listen it is evident ot the readers as well as me what your intentions were...stop acrting like this was not intended.
Preplaxing bravo bravo when nothing happens according to your whish, you come down to filth language.
When Allah said in Holy Quran that Holy Prophet (saw) is like Moses then people asked if so then where is "Yade baiza and mosa ka assa".
Sir you cant have the things your way. It will be always be Allahs way. So stop being childish and accept the fact that those words were omitted in first place qouted by Smooth Guy.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by insha_ji: *
Preplaxing bravo bravo when nothing happens according to your whish, you come down to filth language.
When Allah said in Holy Quran that Holy Prophet (saw) is like Moses then people asked if so then where is "Yade baiza and mosa ka assa".
Sir you cant have the things your way. It will be always be Allahs way. So stop being childish and accept the fact that those words were omitted in first place qouted by Smooth Guy.
[/QUOTE]
If you have something relevant to the topic or in defence of Destino then be my guest...if not then don't start quoting other things and change the topic.
You make me laugh perplexing..
here i am encouraging you guys to read the original text.. actually pleading you to do that.. and you blame me for being dishonest.. i have todl you that a novice translation is not "perfect"..
match this one to the original urdu text.. this is the one posted by Mr Smooth guy... just tell me if this is anyway near as close as mine..
"Mahdi is not a student of anybody. I swear that this is exactly my condition. Nobody can prove that any human has taught me Quran." (Roohani Khazain vol 14 p.394"
here you have quoted is as
[QUOTE]
"QURAN AOR HADITH MAIN KISI KA SHAGIRDH NAHEEN HOGA. SO MAIN HALFAN KEH SAKTA HON....KOI SABIT NAHEEN KARSAKTA KAI MAIN NAI KISI INSAN SAY QURAN YA HADITH YA TAFSEER KA AIK SABAQ BHI PARHA HO.
[/QUOTE]
here is my "novice" "rough" translation.. remember i have used these words in my original posts as well.
[QUOTE]
He will not be someone's student in Quran and Hadith. So. I can say it on oath that this is the same as my state. Noone can prove that i have been taught a single lesson in "tafseer" of Quran or Hadith from anyone.
[/QUOTE]
and it is the same subject which is being discussed further..
[QUOTE]
Or i was a student of some "mufassir" or "muhaddith". So, this is the same "mahdiuviat" which i have been blessed with on the same way "(minhaj) of Nabuwate Muhammadiya. And these secrets of Religion (isrrare deen) have been revealed to me directly. And as due to above mentioned reason the promised one will be called "mahdi",he will also be called "massiah" because he will have the effect of the spirituality of Jesus son of Mary."
(note. This is a very novice translation, for origingal text, please refer to www.alfazal.org).
[/QUOTE]
pay specific attention to my note in the bottom..if you did not see it before..
The word Israar e deen is used in the same context.. and i still want to know if you were taught tafseer of quran when you were 7 years old??
OK Destino I do not know what was in your heart, when you wrote that .... Allah only knows. But Honestly don't you think I have a right to say something about this since the translation you provided was off by one word and because of that word Mirza Sahib's claim was not contradicting its self...come on think about it if you were in my shoes you would say the same thing.....
Secondly.....No I was not taught Tafseer when I was 6 or 7....but then why would a Prophet of Allah say something so open...???
"QURAN AOR HADITH MAIN KISI KA SHAGIRDH NAHEEN HOGA. SO MAIN HALFAN KEH SAKTA HON....KOI SABIT NAHEEN KARSAKTA KAI MAIN NAI KISI INSAN SAY QURAN YA HADITH YA TAFSEER KA AIK SABAQ BHI PARHA HO."
He was the second advent of Prophet Muhammad SAW and Prophet SAW had a miracle of being complete and comprehensive in his sayings. Now you pay attention to my NOTE
"Why would he say QURAN YA TAFSEER if he was challenging on the basis of tafseer only.
In the sentence above that he is saying the Mehdi, that will come will not get any assistance in the religion of Allah from any one. He will not be a student of Quran and Hadith of any one.
He stated this twice...then 2 sentences down the lane he Challenges every one, that he has not been a student of any one in Quran or Hadith or Tafseer.
Why don't you see this.....???
If you read the statement, Promised Massiah has clearly stated that Mahduviat means that “israar e deen” or deeper meanings will be revealed to him by divine guidence.. not the A, B, C or quranic language..
The miracle of Prophet Muhammad :saw: was complete and one of a kind..which can not be given to anyother human being.. It is the greatness of the Prophet :saw:.
p.s. thanks for acknowleging the fact that even i can make mistakes
No answer on his denial of being Promissed Massiah.
Anway…
Now slave of Prophet :saw: shows his love for him…
“This humble self is neither a PROPHET nor a MESSENGER, rather only my Virtuous Prophet’s LOWLY SERVANT and FOLLOWER….”
(Statement of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Akhbar AlHakm Qadian No.23 vol. 5)
Then…
Mirza Ghulam says:
"'Mohammadur Rasoolullah wal lazeena m’ahoo, ashiddao ‘ala alkuffare rohamao bainahum’ in this revelation God has named me Mohammed and Messenger as well."
(Roohani Khazain vol. 18 p.207)
Mirza Ghulam said:
“Holy Prophet has two advents or in other words you can say that in one Buroozi way coming again of Holy Prophet (saaw) was promised which has been fulfilled by the appearance of Promised Messiah and Promised Mahdi.”
(Roohani Khazain vol. 17 p.249)
Mirza Ghulam says:
“I have said several times that according to the verse (of Holy Quran) ‘wa akhareena minhum lamma yalhaqoo behim’ as Burooz I am the same Prophet, the Khatamul Anbiyyah, and 20 years ago God named me Mohammed and Ahmad in Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya and declared me His Being.”
(Aik ghalti ka azala, Roohani Khazain vol. 18 p.212)
Mirza Ghulam said:
“The Holy Prophet (saaw) had two births as a Prophet. In other words, we may say that it was promised that the Holy Prophet (saaw) would be born in the world once more (reincarnated) and this was fulfilled by the incarnation of the Promised Messiah and the Promised Mahdi”.
(Tohfa-e-Golravia, Roohani Khazain vol. 17 p.249)
Mirza said:
“When I am the Holy Prophet incarnate and when all the accomplishments of Muhammad including the prophethood are reflected in my mirror of my shadiness, then who is the man who has claimed prophethood in a separate being?”
(Ek Ghalti Ka Izala, Roohani Khazain, vol.18, p.212)
AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Use of opimum is haram in Islam…otherwise see the outcome above.
MR. smooth guy,
we shall finsihs off the first set of allegations first.. and here was my reply..to this particular statement, on denial of being Maseeh Maood..
[QUOTE]
^ the above statement was a clarification to the allegation of Mullahs, who said that Mirza sahib has claimed to be the "jesus" himself.. like jesus in body..
here is (once again) give you a rough translation of the next lines continuous to the above..
"This is not a new claim, which people have heard from me today, but this is the same "ilham" which on recieving from God i had written in "braheen e Ahmadiyya" at many places with clarity, which has been published a good seven years ago. I never proclaimed that i am "the Jesus son of Mary" and who ever blames me for such is clearly a liar. On the contrary, it has been published by me for more then seven or eight years that I am "maseel e Maseeh".That I have been given some spiritual qualities and nature of Jesus Christ, and in many other respects which i have clarified in many other publications. My life has a very strong resemblence with that of Jesus Christ, and there has been nothing new said from me. I have claimed to be the same promised one (in my books), which has been mentioned in quran metaphorically (Ijmalan??) and in Hadith with clear words (tasreehan??).Because i have clearly stated it in Braheen e Ahmadiyya, that i am the same Promised Maseel (one who is likened), which has been spritualy announced by Quran and Hadith already.
(again i must remind you that this is a rough translation.. refer to www.alfazal.org for the original text)
Why have your mullahs at Irshad org not been able to quote the whole passage?in both the above cases..
[/QUOTE]
i still need to have your comments on that.. before we move forward..
Mr Smooth guy i will suggest try to read those pages your self before asking a question. The book is on line. start reading from page 206 all the way till page 215 it might clear it for you. The answer is there only you have to do is read few pages.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
MR. smooth guy,
we shall finsihs off the first set of allegations first.. and here was my reply..to this particular statement, on denial of being Maseeh Maood..
i still need to have your comments on that.. before we move forward..
[/QUOTE]
I understand that he didn't claim to be Jesus but he is not promised messiah as well.
"This humble self has simply claimed to be a Maseel Maseeh, which foolish people have thought to be Promised Messiah..." (Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.192)
And this is not for the Mullahs....he is clearing his claims here.
Yep...He was the Mahdi...But alas, he died before he could fulfill the prophecy of Muslim dominion over all...Oh well...Maybe in his reicarnation...After all, what is reincarnation to someone who is a prophet, a messiah and the mahdi all rolled into one...Maybe he can come back next time as a god...:)
