Something Reha finds 1000% weird.
What IS Godh Barai?
A sympathetic:rotfl:
Re: So I was surfing GS
Just read yours.
Oh PCG.
Only if you were 4-6 years younger and lived in England. :hinna:
Other than your post all posts there are generic.
I love the picture you just painted in my head.
I’ve never seen a godh bharai rasm being done by pakistanis 
PCG- I guess you can say that a godh bharai is like a baby shower but has some rituals. I think I’ve seen it in Indian movies, but never seen it being performed by Pakistanis… but I wouldn’t be surprised if it is practiced.
I think the caste system is only the tip of the iceberg. Ever been to a Pakistani wedding? What's the difference between that an Indian one? Qazi vs. Pandit.
Also we need to make a differentiation between castes and tribes because in the Pakhtun/Baluch cultures the tribes serve as identifiers and not social indicators. Certain tribes might be in power or have an edge in the literary circles, but I have yet to meet a person from the Western part of Pakistan who thinks he/she is "better" because of a particular tribal affiliation.
I understand that Punjabis, Sindhis, and Urdu speakers have more of this caste thing, where people think that they are "better" than others based on the caste affiliations, which is both unIslamic and anti-egalitarian.
Exactly! The way I see it, people misuse the term "caste" in Pakistan. They have no idea what caste really means outside of Pakistan. I don't think caste system exists in Pakistan because no one thinks you are better because you belong to a certain tribe. That's so not right! It's just for identification purposes, I absolutely agree with that.
Re: So I was surfing GS
^ maybe it is originally a tribal thing. that's what i thought it was when i found out my "zaat" two years ago from my cousins. i thought it was interesting at first because it gives an idea of what the ancestors were like, what they used to do, where they came from. but then i found out it's treated as a caste system in pakistan with syeds/shaikhs at the top. maybe it's not as extreme as the hindu caste system because it's ok for an arain to talk to a jatt/shaikh/etc. or eat with them. there's no banishment or exclusion. but i find it strange how people ask about caste, that has nothing to do with marriage.
Oh and another thing Im not understand is Pakistani's doing a full fledged Godh Bharai ki Rasm.
I find it 1000% weird.
I do too Reha.
For those that don't know what it is:
<<It is a ceremony that celebrates the first pregnancy of the bride of the house and is held in the seventh month of pregnancy. On this day, the prospective mother is dressed in almost bridal finery. It is important that her mother present all the garments that she wears at the ceremony. The ceremony is strictly for women only. Consequently, there are only women invitees. All the women will be dressed in traditional finery and will sing traditional songs appropriate for the occasion.
The women who participate in the ceremony from the side of the mother of the expectant mother will bring five colourfully decorated metal thalis (round plates). Of these five thalis, three thalis will contain assorted Indian sweets. The fourth thali will contain a range of garments and jewellery. The fifth thali will be filled with a coconut >>
It is totally freaking weird that Pakistani's have this ceremony........ but just another indication that we can't get get rid of of the hindi traditions and customs from our past. And sure.. its not like every family has this ceremony... but its just another example of a hindu thing (such as the importance of zaat) that is still being practiced but us Muslims.
^ maybe it is originally a tribal thing. that's what i thought it was when i found out my "zaat" two years ago from my cousins. i thought it was interesting at first because it gives an idea of what the ancestors were like, what they used to do, where they came from. but then i found out it's treated as a caste system in pakistan with syeds/shaikhs at the top. maybe it's not as extreme as the hindu caste system because it's ok for an arain to talk to a jatt/shaikh/etc. or eat with them. there's no banishment or exclusion. but i find it strange how people ask about caste, that has nothing to do with marriage.
Actual caste system is not based on surnames or tribes. Like I said, we are a confused bunch, Pakistanis don't know what they mean when we talk about caste. Surnames & tribes have nothing to do with the real caste system. You can only use that information to trace your ancestry (maybe), which is really what the rest of the world does too.
Exactly! The way I see it, people misuse the term "caste" in Pakistan. They have no idea what caste really means outside of Pakistan. I don't think caste system exists in Pakistan because no one thinks you are better because you belong to a certain tribe. That's so not right! It's just for identification purposes, I absolutely agree with that.
I totally disagree.... Pakistani people certainly do think they are better than others if they belong to a certain tribe. And those that care about it, do look down upon those that are not of the same zaat as them ... mabey not to the extent as they will not become friends with you or work with you or eat with you .... but to the extent they dont want a person of that "zaat" to marry into your family.
Pakistan as a country hasn't even been around for 100 years.... it was all India for like centuries..... its not that hard to believe that something that was practiced and is practiced heavily in India is still having effect in today's Pakistan for this reason.
Re: So I was surfing GS
An example I will give: Just like a Hindu Jatt or a Sikh Jatt think they are on top of the food chain .... A muslim Jatt thinks the same way. And just like a Hindu/Sikh Jatt puts emphasis on the fact they are Jatt and want to marry a Jatt.... its the same for a Muslim Jatt. The same pride (unnecessary) and feelings of superiority exist amongst all three .... doesn't matter what their religion is.
^ That's a good example. In fact, I was having a conversation about these "tribes" with one of my friends who is a Jatt. I'm a Chaudhry. She told me how her dad had once made a comment how Jatts are better than Chaudhrys. I had no clue.
If a Jatt rejects a marriage proposal from a Gujjar and accepts them only from other Jatts, then it's because they don't think the Gujjar is good enough. Like PunjabiRose said, there's that sense of superiority.
I totally disagree.... Pakistani people certainly do think they are better than others if they belong to a certain tribe. And those that care about it, do look down upon those that are not of the same zaat as them ... mabey not to the extent as they will not become friends with you or work with you or eat with you .... but to the extent they dont want a person of that "zaat" to marry into your family.
There will alwaye be people who think they are better than others because they belong to a certain family/clan/tribe, this doesn't just happen in Pakistan, it happens all around the globe. However, it is NOT because of the caste system, it's because they are proud of who they are. It has more to do with tribal honor than anything. Like I said, we don't know what we mean when we talk about caste.
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Pakistan as a country hasn't even been around for 100 years.... it was all India for like centuries..... its not that hard to believe that something that was practiced and is practiced heavily in India is still having effect in today's Pakistan for this reason.
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Do you realize that Pakistan has been Muslim for centuries? Pakistan before independence was not much different than it is now in terms of traditions and cultures. It is more Indianized now than it was ever before! Muslims never had a caste system, they organized society based on ethnic groups, clans, and tribes. This is so not the same as the Indian caste system. There are remnants of Vedic/Hindu/Zoroastrian traditions in Pakistani society but caste system is not one of them.
An example I will give: Just like a Hindu Jatt or a Sikh Jatt think they are on top of the food chain .... A muslim Jatt thinks the same way. And just like a Hindu/Sikh Jatt puts emphasis on the fact they are Jatt and want to marry a Jatt.... its the same for a Muslim Jatt. The same pride (unnecessary) and feelings of superiority exist amongst all three .... doesn't matter what their religion is.
That's not how caste system works! You just proved my point that most Pakistanis don't even know what caste even means
!
There will alwaye be people who think they are better than others because they belong to a certain family/clan/tribe, this doesn't just happen in Pakistan, it happens all around the globe. However, it is NOT because of the caste system, it's because they are proud of who they are. It has more to do with tribal honor than anything. Like I said, we don't know what we mean when we talk about caste.
A group of people that label themselves as something and think they are Superior than others due to that label and only want to marry people of the same label??? If it walks like a duck... sounds like a duck... then its probably a duck. Even if its not a "per se Indian Caste System" ... it is still pathetic we have something like this in Pakistani society.
Do you realize that Pakistan has been Muslim for centuries? Pakistan before independence was not much different than it is now in terms of traditions and cultures. It is more Indianized now than it was ever before! Muslims never had a caste system, they organized society based on ethnic groups, clans, and tribes. This is so not the same as the Indian caste system. There are remnants of Vedic/Hindu/Zoroastrian traditions in Pakistani society but caste system is not one of them.
Your talking about the Mughal empire and such? Yea I was aware. But I am aware of the fact that there were huge populations of hindus and sikhs that also lived in the "Pakistan" area of India. Hence the huge migration post partition??? All the stories I heard from daadi was about how she grew up with sikh and hindu friends and neighbors. And as expected, their influence was felt in the area???? Just like how we pick up customs and traditions from goray people when we live among them .... it worked like that with them too during those times.
And also - you are assuming that all muslims were born muslim. We all converted at some point in this area of the world. Mentalities that were passed down from generation to generation and stayed in society.... can be understood. My own family was Sikh only 5 generations ago. That is not that long ago... while I find certain traditions, customs, and mentalities bizaare .... I don't have any trouble understanding why certain Sikh traditions and mentalities are still lingering despite being Muslim and living in post partition Pakistan.
That's not how caste system works! You just proved my point that most Pakistanis don't even know what caste even means !
Ok . I don't know anything. But I can tell you one thing, my families "Zaat" has nothing to do with our surname, our ethnicity, clan, or tribe. From what my family has explained to me - it has to do with the fact that we own a lot of land... mainly entire pinds in Pakistan. People that work on the land or have other sorts of professions have other "zaats" ... and in the past have not been "worthy" enough to marry into our family.... even despite the fact that they themselves may have made something of themselves. But just the fact that their "Khandaan" is not land owners and not of the same "zaat" as us.... marriage proposals were shot down. To me this is pathetic and seems just like a caste system like practice to me. You tell me its not so ok. But I'll still believe it is.
Thank god that my parents have moved away from this stupid practice/system/whatever you want to call it.
Yeah, except that the Prophet frowned on those distinctions incredibly. He himself was from the Qureish tribe, and truly did not give a flying rat's behind when he was preaching and his Qureish members were telling him to stop.
The whole Bani Hashim, etc, business gets amplified after the Prophet's death, because he wasn't around to tell people to stop making tribalism such a big issue.
hey kindly refrain from using terms such as "flying rats behind" etc etc.
we are talking about Muhammad Rasool ALLAH(S.a) the final messenger from God and terms used in the sentences where his name comes should be decent.
so lets behave ourselves
A group of people that label themselves as something and think they are Superior than others due to that label and only want to marry people of the same label??? If it walks like a duck... sounds like a duck... then its probably a duck. Even if its not a "per se Indian Caste System" ... it is still pathetic we have something like this in Pakistani society.
Your talking about the Mughal empire and such? Yea I was aware. But I am aware of the fact that there were huge populations of hindus and sikhs that also lived in the "Pakistan" area of India. Hence the huge migration post partition??? All the stories I heard from daadi was about how she grew up with sikh and hindu friends and neighbors. And as expected, their influence was felt in the area???? Just like how we pick up customs and traditions from goray people when we live among them .... it worked like that with them too during those times.
And also - you are assuming that all muslims were born muslim. We all converted at some point in this area of the world. Mentalities that were passed down from generation to generation and stayed in society.... can be understood. My own family was Sikh only 5 generations ago. That is not that long ago... while I find certain traditions, customs, and mentalities bizaare .... I don't have any trouble understanding why certain Sikh traditions and mentalities are still lingering despite being Muslim and living in post partition Pakistan.
Ok . I don't know anything. But I can tell you one thing, my families "Zaat" has nothing to do with our surname, our ethnicity, clan, or tribe. From what my family has explained to me - it has to do with the fact that we own a lot of land... mainly entire pinds in Pakistan. People that work on the land or have other sorts of professions have other "zaats" ... and in the past have not been "worthy" enough to marry into our family.... even despite the fact that they themselves may have made something of themselves. But just the fact that their "Khandaan" is not land owners and not of the same "zaat" as us.... marriage proposals were shot down. To me this is pathetic and seems just like a caste system like practice to me. You tell me its not so ok. But I'll still believe it is.
Thank god that my parents have moved away from this stupid practice/system/whatever you want to call it.
You know what, you may be right about that. I have heard that too from Punjabis. It's always Punjabis! Your family sounds a bit more concerned about zaat than most punjabis I have known. Most punjabis I know don't give 2 s**ts about zaat, including my own inlaws to be. This kind of mentality is indeed pathetic. I guess castes do exist but only in certain areas of Punjab. Also, "thekedaar" could be a caste I guess..The first time I heard about zaat was actually from my Punjabi fiance when he just casually brought it up. In my entire life, I had never thought a Pakistani could care about my last name.
P.S. I only replied to your last part of the post because everything above is irrelevant to the actual topic and I don't want to derail this thread :)
Also we need to make a differentiation between castes and tribes because in the Pakhtun/Baluch cultures the tribes serve as identifiers and not social indicators. Certain tribes might be in power or have an edge in the literary circles, but I have yet to meet a person from the Western part of Pakistan who thinks he/she is "better" because of a particular tribal affiliation.
Oh please!! what a pack of lies... I know cuz I'm a baloch.
Re: So I was surfing GS
And all you people sound so condescending with your comments.... wake up and face the reality. Would you marry your daughter or even yourself into a family of gawalas (milkmen) for instance, even if they were bloody rich.... no, you won't, you will stay stuff like they are not educated, their lifestyle is different, blah blah... and obviously you ARE saying all that cuz of their background.
I don't see anything wrong in wanting to marry my daughter into a family that speaks the same language as I do, or has the same customs, or the same social status, preferably.... it will be an easier life for her. I'm not a snob, and I have friends from all sorts of families who belong to different social statuses, but when it comes to marriage, its a different ballgame altogether (exception being love marriage, of course).
PCG…its a rasm that is mainly in the Indian culture where the girl’s GODH is actually filled with things from her Maika (mom’s side of the family).
Yes, I do. Have you ever seen one happening?
I have soundarya. The thing is, if its something Pakistanis do as a rule or is part of our culture…I get it and may even be fine with it. But its odd to see Muslims doing things that they dont really know the meaning of or believe in either.
Exactly. Ive seen it become an issue with certain people. I know folks who will not marry a non-Syed. Larki chahey kaisi bhi ho…Syed honi chahiye hai. What does being Syed have to do with marriage? We are Syed and I dont know if my parents have ever even asked anyone so far that has married into our family what their caste is. Its never mattered.
Where do they get the idea that its okay?
There was one I went to where the mom had the whole almost bridal thing going on, sitting on a jhoola, etc.
I hate to say this but we do generally think of ourselves as better than others and that ego is puffed up even more when a caste is involved. Its sad but its true.
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Yes, I do. Have you ever seen one happening?
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No :(
Tabhi to poocha tha.