So does anyone else find Razzaq to be

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChthonicPowers: *

But if Razzaq has a lot of cricket left in him, then so does Azhar mahmood. Razzaq hasnt performed so well recently, why not bring in Azhar? And as far as i remember, Azhar is a very good fielder in the slip region to boot. Now I am not saying he's the best all rounder, but as we all agree Razzaq is going through a lean patch hence its only reasonable to give someone else a place in the team and prove himself.

[/QUOTE]

Azhar has not been able to prove himself as a geniune all rounder in ODI's ever since he started. He has been given ample oppurtunities. He has played 124 ODI's for Pakistan and his batting average is 17.68!!!! to top that his bowling average is 37.33!!!!! So he is a below average bowler and a below average batsman. He might have potential to do better but how many more chances does he really need. Comparing him to Razzaq is injustice to Razzaq. His performance in ODI's atleast is way much better then Azhar. Plus Razzaq was going through a lean patch. He is now getting back to his old self. If you think Razzaq is a preeetttyyy ordinary bowler then I guess Azhar is really not a bowler in your books.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Eastern Thoughts: *
...
I can feel that Razaq is as great player as " Imran Khan " , he is very coolminded, and Yes Pakistani Future Cap. too.
If he is given confidense, he can show much more better than this.
look at records and then say all this abt him :)
...
[/QUOTE]

Imran Khan was a "genuine" all rounder, and his bowling was a real threat to batsmen around the world while Razzaq isn't as much. Razzaq isn't as great. Yes, Razzaq is a very good all rounder, but not as great as Imran.

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Read my post again. I mentioned Azhar because his name came to my mind at that time. I just want Pakistan to test alternatives for Razzaq. That is why my para ended with:

i realise his avgs r worse than Razzaq.

And Razzaq is still not out of the woods yet. One good batting performance against Zimbabwe doesnt mean anything. His bowling avg for sharjah was 37.5 and even worse for the World cup. (129) :eek:

So no, he’s not in-form right now, and u can see that from the numbers.

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i have no time to argue with people who think rana naveed is better than razzaq that's probably they watched the pakistani team playin for the first time...
RAZZAQ was named player of the year and allrounder of the year...what the hell are u guyz talking about

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Re: So does anyone else find Razzaq to be

i personally don’t like razzaq hiz ballin iz :nook: n hiz battin iz just ok

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As for Abdul razzaq, he is a very disciplined player, which is what Pak needs, a line and length bowler. He has had a quite year or so, however, he is still a key player.

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Agreed:k:… still a key player:jhanda:…

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spitfire: *
i have no time to argue with people who think rana naveed is better than razzaq that's probably they watched the pakistani team playin for the first time...
RAZZAQ was named player of the year and allrounder of the year...what the hell are u guyz talking about
[/QUOTE]

gee..thanx for taking out time from your precious schedule, but if you look at the stats you'll realise that WAS a longtime ago.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by baazigar100: *
As for Abdul razzaq, he is a very disciplined player, which is what Pak needs, a line and length bowler. He has had a quite year or so, however, he is still a key player.
[/QUOTE]

hmmm..wasim and Waqar were the key players until they faced the axe..No?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChthonicPowers: *

hmmm..wasim and Waqar were the key players until they faced the axe..No?
[/QUOTE]

Actaually Waqar hasnt been the key player in a while now. His bowling speed has come down conisderably and at times he looks very ordinary. Now here is the key difference between Waqar and Razzaq's situation. The board wont mind presisting with Razzaq cause he is still young and hopefully will bounce back if given confidence. On the other Waqar is past his prime and its highly unlikley he will achieve the same feats he did 7-8 years ago. So I think Razzaq should be given more time and he will come through.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by LahoriMunda: *

Actaually Waqar hasnt been the key player in a while now. His bowling speed has come down conisderably and at times he looks very ordinary. Now here is the key difference between Waqar and Razzaq's situation. The board wont mind presisting with Razzaq cause he is still young and hopefully will bounce back if given confidence. On the other Waqar is past his prime and its highly unlikley he will achieve the same feats he did 7-8 years ago. So I think Razzaq should be given more time and he will come through.
[/QUOTE]

Oh yes. height of delight. Razzaq has been the key player for the team for a while now..more so than Waqar..the captain himself? Great.

You talk abt Waqar not being able to perform the way he did 7-8 years ago? based on what? Do you have anything to backup your claims? have you had a look at his annual averages? i bet you haven't or you wouldn't be saying what you just did. observe for yourself:

[thumb=B]waqar.JPG[/thumb]

Now, compare this to the mighty Glen Mcgrath himself:
[thumb=B]glen.JPG[/thumb]

While looking at the stats, don't forget Waqar is a year younger than McGrath, AND still bowls faster than him. Going by the high standards that Waqar has set, then sure..he had two bad seasons in 02 and 03..but if Razzaq can bounce back, why can't Waqar. There's plenty of cricket left in him.

So pls dont tell me Razzaq is a more important member of the team than Waqar. Thats perhaps the most absurd statement I've read so far in this thread.

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ChthonicPowers,

Waqar is way past his prime. He's been playing for what, 13/14 years now? Razzaq on the other hand is a 'new kid' who just went through a lean patch.

In an effort to go and see what your point was, i went and looked at the statistics. I'll be putting forth his career stats, and his stats since 2001/2002 (the last 35 matches),



Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

127  2363 112   28.13   1  13 156  6/35   26.48  3  17  0
35     752 112   32.69   1   4  28  4/35   35.67  0   6  0

So it would seem that his batting performance has improved. (32 is a better average than Azhar Mahmood, wasim akram, rashid latif, even taufeeq umar i think) Having an allrounder with that sort of average is always useful.

And his bowling average has dropped a little but it has still been fairly good (certainly better than mahmood) and again, that will improve once he's through his patch.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ammarr: *
ChthonicPowers,

Waqar is way past his prime. He's been playing for what, 13/14 years now? Razzaq on the other hand is a 'new kid' who just went through a lean patch.

In an effort to go and see what your point was, i went and looked at the statistics. I'll be putting forth his career stats, and his stats since 2001/2002 (the last 35 matches),



Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

127  2363 112   28.13   1  13 156  6/35   26.48  3  17  0
35     752 112   32.69   1   4  28  4/35   35.67  0   6  0

So it would seem that his batting performance has improved. (32 is a better average than Azhar Mahmood, wasim akram, rashid latif, even taufeeq umar i think) Having an allrounder with that sort of average is always useful.

And his bowling average has dropped a little but it has still been fairly good (certainly better than mahmood) and again, that will improve once he's through his patch.
[/QUOTE]

your stats r confusing. try to insert a picture if you can. And once again, i never mentioned Razzaq's batting in my original post. you need to go back and read.

Secondly, if anyone's past their prime, its saqlain mushtaq. waqar is still good in my books. just a bit of bad luck in the last year or so..maybe it was the captaincy..who knows. captaincy cracked tendulkar. so maybe as a regular player waqar will perform even better. Not that his personal avg is all that bad to begin with.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChthonicPowers: *

Oh yes. height of delight. Razzaq has been the key player for the team for a while now..more so than Waqar..the captain himself? Great.

You talk abt Waqar not being able to perform the way he did 7-8 years ago? based on what? Do you have anything to backup your claims? have you had a look at his annual averages? i bet you haven't or you wouldn't be saying what you just did. observe for yourself:

[thumb=B]waqar.JPG[/thumb]

Now, compare this to the mighty Glen Mcgrath himself:
[thumb=B]glen.JPG[/thumb]

While looking at the stats, don't forget Waqar is a year younger than McGrath, AND still bowls faster than him. Going by the high standards that Waqar has set, then sure..he had two bad seasons in 02 and 03..but if Razzaq can bounce back, why can't Waqar. There's plenty of cricket left in him.

So pls dont tell me Razzaq is a more important member of the team than Waqar. Thats perhaps the most absurd statement I've read so far in this thread.
[/QUOTE]

Well first of all I dont know where on this thread you read the statement that Razzaq is a more important member of the team then Waqar. All I said was the board wont mind presisting with Razzaq cause he has a lot of cricket left in him, as oppose to Waqar. Why dont you admit a FACT. You believe things that you want to believe and ignore everytihng else.
First you said Bichel was a better allrounder then after I posted the averages you backed off and went to Azhar. Then you said you only mentioned Azhar as his name came to your mind. Well so sorry but I am not a mind reader or I would have not put any effort in posting averages of Azhar and Razzaq. Now you are trying to prove something by posting McGrath's and Waqar's averages.
[thumb=B]waqar1.JPG[/thumb]

[thumb=B]glen1.JPG[/thumb]

Now it doesnt matter if Waqar bowls a little faster then McGrath, but you very conveniently missed the economy rate comparison between the two bowlers. Although there is a difference in overall economy rate too but in the past two years you can just tell how expensive Waqar has been. His economy rate is 5.88 for 2003 compared to McGraths 3.60.
I dont think Saqlain is past his prime either. He has been misused too often. He has an impccable record. He is only 27 and I am sure he will come back and further improve his record. By the way Saqlain's strike rate is slightly better then Waqar's and so is his economy rate.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by LahoriMunda: *

Well first of all I dont know where on this thread you read the statement that Razzaq is a more important member of the team then Waqar. All I said was the board wont mind presisting with Razzaq cause he has a lot of cricket left in him, as oppose to Waqar. Why dont you admit a FACT. You believe things that you want to believe and ignore everytihng else.
First you said Bichel was a better allrounder then after I posted the averages you backed off and went to Azhar. Then you said you only mentioned Azhar as his name came to your mind. Well so sorry but I am not a mind reader or I would have not put any effort in posting averages of Azhar and Razzaq. Now you are trying to prove something by posting McGrath's and Waqar's averages.
[thumb=B]waqar1.JPG[/thumb]

[thumb=B]glen1.JPG[/thumb]

Now it doesnt matter if Waqar bowls a little faster then McGrath, but you very conveniently missed the economy rate comparison between the two bowlers. Although there is a difference in overall economy rate too but in the past two years you can just tell how expensive Waqar has been. His economy rate is 5.88 for 2003 compared to McGraths 3.60.
I dont think Saqlain is past his prime either. He has been misused too often. He has an impccable record. He is only 27 and I am sure he will come back and further improve his record. By the way Saqlain's strike rate is slightly better then Waqar's and so is his economy rate.
[/QUOTE]

My mistake. I thought you meant Razzaq has been a more imp. player than Waqar.

My observation abt Andy Bichel was based on his recent performance in the WC. And I'll admit I hadnt seen him play before the WC, but he impressed me during the WC and thats all to it. You want to argue with that, then just take a look at his stats. Also his career averages maybe inferior to Razzaq, but he's improving. His bowling avg for 2003 is 17, while for 2002 it was 35. Razzaq's avg on the other hand was 35 in 2001, 26 in 2002 and 68 in 2003. (he's played fewer matches though)
But we'll leave Andy Bichel for some other day. Does not mean i am back off.

And i am not going into Azhar Mahmood. you have got to start reading my posts. i think I've already made clear why i mentioned him. if you still don't get it, tough luck.

Waqar has been an expensive bowler. We all know that. Look at his E/R for most part of his career and you'll see its hovering around 4.7 mark. 5.03 is not so bad in that context. The reason his E/R is so high in 2003 is the number of overs he's bowled. Its only 30 compared to 104 for glenn. For a comparison Shoaib Akhter's E/R for 2003 is 5.73 with 44 overs, when it was 4.29 in 2002. Your theory backfires.

Now: Saqlain is past his prime. I am not going to deliberate on it after this post because I am sure the numbers will convince you. Plus, the fact that Saqlain's S/r and E/r is only slightly better than waqar speaks for how great waqar has been. Waqar is an attacking bowler and containing the runs is not as important to him as getting the wickets, yet he's managed to contain the runs very well too.

Saqlain:

[thumb=B]saqlain.JPG[/thumb]

Murli:
[thumb=B]murli.JPG[/thumb]

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChthonicPowers: *
Now: Saqlain is past his prime. I am not going to deliberate on it after this post because I am sure the numbers will convince you. Plus, the fact that Saqlain's S/r and E/r is only slightly better than waqar speaks for how great waqar has been. Waqar is an attacking bowler and containing the runs is not as important to him as getting the wickets, yet he's managed to contain the runs very well too.

Saqlain:

[thumb=B]saqlain.JPG[/thumb]

Murli:
[thumb=B]murli.JPG[/thumb]
[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much for posting Murali's and Saqlain's stats. All the big hype about Murali being the best and at times unplayable. Saqlain is perhaps the most underated of the international players. Look at his strike rate, look at his average. Both are better then Murali and Waqar.

Coming back to Razzaq, he has such an impressiv record that temperory failure does not make him an average player. Ever since his return from injury he hasnt bowled very well, but once he regains his confidence which hit rock bottom after the world cup we will see an improvement.

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Well where Saqi is a under-rated player let me say Razaq is an over rated and if not over rated he just has to improve his attitude towards game.I am sure if Azhar Mehmood would have played so many matches he would havebecome an allrounder of the class of Chris Cairns.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by LahoriMunda: *

Thank you so much for posting Murali's and Saqlain's stats. All the big hype about Murali being the best and at times unplayable. Saqlain is perhaps the most underated of the international players. Look at his strike rate, look at his average. Both are better then Murali and Waqar.

Coming back to Razzaq, he has such an impressiv record that temperory failure does not make him an average player. Ever since his return from injury he hasnt bowled very well, but once he regains his confidence which hit rock bottom after the world cup we will see an improvement.
[/QUOTE]

you only have to look at saqlain's averages trend to realise he's past his prime. It has gone from 19 to 28, while for murali, it has gone from 35 to 18. also notice how murali's /R and E/R have been constantly improving while Saqlain's figures have only gotten worse.

the figures prove a point, but if you choose to ignore it..your choice. Won't change the reality.

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Well the matter of fact is this since Waqar becmae the captain, he never trusted Saqi and dropped him for lhr test against Bangladesh.You can wlel imagine.Whereas Wasim always trusted his abilities and utilized his maximum talents and he always responded.