ranjeet u missed the point.... this is what i want to know. how do u make someone follow any of these? Islam is a complete mode of life. How can someone live a life by obeying what Islam has to offer just cos they fear muslims. Here it is once again... maybe u will have better luck understanding it now.
** 1. Kalima (one sentence to read privately)
2. Namaz (read privately or in public)
3. Zakat (charity given privately)
4. Roza (fasting also done privately)
5. Hajj (pilgrimage to makka, dependent on whether a muslim can afford to make this pilgrimage or not)
Now can someone explain if there is such a thing as a "forced conversion" how can a muslim be forced to follow these five principles of Islam? Lets take the example of this mother whose daughter has been raped..... agreed she will read Kalima for one day to save her life. Now how would she get the motivation to pray namaaz in her home without any force? how would she be forced to read Quran? Were muslims watching over her all day and all night long? No matter how much you would think thats the case its not humanly possible to do a thing like that.
YOU do not become a muslim unless you heart is filled with light of Islam. No one can force Islam on you..... no one can force another human being to pray namaaz or read Quran. For one day maybe yes.... but forever? and whats more unbeleivable is to force Islam on to its coming generations as well. **
mundayya, forget mumbo jumbo. I know many muslims who dont give two hoots about any pillar of islam.
ur argument is why they did not convert back? Now suppose a person who chose to convert and stay in pakistan at time aof partition wants to convert back to sikhism. is it possible. conversion away from islam is punishable by death when muslims are rulers. so it is out of question. you will kill him legally.
same case in aurangzeb or similar times. suppose he tried to convert back, the same begots who made him convert will run after his life. having once chosen life over convictions and honor, why will he go back.
in hinduism, situation was worse. even if u wanted to convert, till this century u could not convert. in sikhism, conversion is possible. but living under muslim rule, it practically can not be carried out.
ur denial saying that forced conversions never happened is amzaing. sri guru granth sahib gives accounts of them. do u know gypsies i europe. they are basically indians, rajasthanis who ran away when muslims invaded rajasthan. do u know parsis, one of minorities in india. why did they come from iran to india?
Thanks for repeating the list of the five pillars you gave me. That can be followed by any religion,personally Sikhs would not follow the last two since they do not feel that they give any real spiritual benefit,but you choose to believe that's fine,that's your choice.As a muslim,you should know what muslims say and do can be two completely different things,it doesn't mean that there are not muslims who have not resorted to certain tactics to convert,wether it be by force,coercion.
I know Sikhs are a miniscule number compared to Islam,Christianity,Buddhism,but it is growing,there are Sikhs in every corner in the world,there is an expression "where you find a potato,you find a sikh",the seeds of Sikhi is spread throughout the world. People of other races want to know about Sikhism,there are White Sikh communities in New Mexico,Arizona, I have even seen Chinese Sikhs. There may be Sikhs who do not know much about their faith but they are very proud still of being Sikh. I know there are muslims who like to think that there should be less and less Sikh,because I believe there is something in Sikhs that is seen by others,maybe it instills fear. Sikhs have been killed,slaughtered,massacred,ethnically cleansed,have had everything done to them under the sun in last few hundred years,but you know what they are still here,stronger,bigger and more confident and they are here to stay. <<<<
yeah this should be in the jokes section i beleive. we got an idea of how strong sikhs really are nowadays when hindus pissed golden temple some years back. and everyday as a matter of fact.... whenever raw needs the feel to butcher a few sikhs infront of their families to gain foreign symphathy.
** So chanmahi, before accusing our ancestors of being illiterate and beghairat who converted to Islam.... take a deep look around you. you were a brahmans slave yesterday and you are a brahmans slave today. our ancestors werent beghairat who would let go of their sisters, daughters rape and still convert to Islam... but those who didnt convert are. so today you serve in indian army when it kills sikhs inside golden temple. today the likes of rani and other sikhs put down the persecution of sikhs yet in the same breath uphold the persecution of muslims and destruction of mosques. today with rise of hindutva sikhs have no choice but to keep on kissing their boots..... sikhs today feel proud of killing a woman 'indira gandhi' in her back while the real culprits walk free. you do not have balls to stand up against the hindu army so you look for reasons to blame Pakistan and ISI and put all the blame on them..... you are the real beghairats. our ancestors atleast died while preaching Islam to us..... while you are still preaching a hindu amulgum version of sikhism... far far off from real sikhsim. **
how brave are you guys then,you use money funded by your arab masters oil money in madrassas,train them, send them to Kashmir and other places to be used as cannon fodder,must be giving that evil Hindu army some much needed shooting practice. By saying that Sikhs are slave of brahmins,it can be said that you are slave of arabs,you lick their boots,you let them use you guys as mugs.
Enough of these insults,although it can be enjoyable,the discussion is getting out of hand and getting off the subject. I think that the moderators should close this topic,it would just go around in circles.
Pakistan is the fort of Islam… we will be exporting nukes pretty soon to the rest of the muslim world especially our Saudi, Kuwaiti, Syrian and Libyan brothers. And they just dont give us money they come and fight with us for our beleifs. Osama Bin Laden is no punjabi, balochi but a Saudi.
As for as who is getting a shooting practice in Kashmir… well yeah if u can call the seventeen helpless sikhs butchered infront of their families a shooting practice then yes it must be. if u can call the hundreds of sikhs butchered in golden temple a shooting practice then it must be. but for every muslim that gets killed in Kashmir we nail ten hindu dogs of army. you can ask the army for more details.
Muslims are not beghairat who would shoot a woman in her back and think that they have avenged the murder of thousands of sikhs… we are not scared of anyone like you sikhs are scared of hindu army. like chickens you cant get the indian govt to do an independent probe in the killings of sikhs who were butchered in Kashmir.
so keep on being pitiful and blaiming others for the ur ur own beghairati lack of confidence. you have no one but urself to blame.
Ranjeet you said "they chose to stay with their land,they remain muslim today because they could not revert back to Sikhism as there would be bloodshed if they did"
I believe this is PURE BS. You just need to have a strong faith.
Ranjeet, by now, I am sure that u are convinced that Muslims (particularly, Pakistani Muslims ) are brave and none else is.
If u are still not convinced, I will recommend you to read Hamdoor commision report on bravery of Pakistani army in Bangladesh. It is recently published by 'India Today'.
they can say what they like,our bhaijaans here are very brave.What they say doen't bother me.Pakistan is well renowned for their bravery,all the battles and wars that they have won,they put the Russians,Chinese,Americans,Vietnamese to shame.
yup, thats the only thing going for sikhs nowadays… bangladesh. even they are better off than sikhs i think… atleast they have their own army and can die fighting for themselves.
what do sikhs have? but pitiful stories of golden temple… well atleast bangali misery is over. sikh misery is never ending.
By saying that Sikhs are slave of brahmins,it can be said that you are slave of arabs,you lick their boots,you let them use you guys as mugs.
**
[/quote]
Do you know what the hell the history of Arabs are? they were your brothers in jahil stupid idol worshipping. So how the hell can we be slaves of Arabs? Arabs converted to ISLAM just like every muslim once did in their ancestry! because we recognized truth from falsehood! read your history. If we are slaves of anyone, it is only ALLAH!
You sikhs are one to talk about slavery, fighting the battle for hindues at the same time not even having a homeland? how pathetic! use your heads!
get your damn khalistan or whatever first then maybe we can talk, your one of the only pathetic kaums on this earth who don't even have their own country. That is the bare minimum. Fighting in Kashmir for ur hindu masters when your own people don't even inhabit the area? now who is the cannon fodder? We muslims are fighting for land which we occupy!! in Chechnya, in Bosnia, in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Kashmir and the list goes on, what the hell are you fighting for??? if anything, its just for the muslims who will always occupy Kashmir and never leave. You cowards left long ago......
ALLAHUMA ENSRUL MUJAHIDEENA FI KASHMIR
ALLAHUMA ENSRUL MUJAHIDEENA FI KULLI MAKAAN
Ameen.
Mundayaa,
You remind of an old story “Grapes are Sour”, you could not win an argument and now you are telling us that Sikhs are suffering. <<<
what grapes would those be? slavery of brahman isnt exactly a grape for me. no thanks.
and the sufferings of sikhs are not brought up by me… but these pitiful stories are uttered by you, chan mahi and other sikhs. you want me to pull those threads and list them again? only in this thread i can list ten posts by ranjeet and sikhs describing the pitiful treatment sikhs have gotten in the history… well it hasnt ended has it?
so next time you bring up massacres of muslims… maybe u should remember the ones in golden temple as well. you can keep these grapes that come at the cost of hindutva boots shoved right where they have always been for centuries.
only next time… dont call the converted sikh muslims coward or beghairat who converted cos they feared muslims who allowed them to rape their sisters. Cos you have always been the beghairat ones for fighting in the army that massacres your own worshipping places. you are the coward clan who cant standup for what they beleive in… who live under the boots of hindutva and talk of self esteem.
and there is no such thing as forced conversion… as a decendent of a converted sikh I would know that better than you would. I spent a lot of time with my grandfather and he told me all about how our great grandfather converted to Islam… and it was not for any sword being put on his head. he wasnt six months old as chanmahi pointed out, he didnt get his sister raped by muslims… He converted just like anyother non-muslim converts to Islam. Cos he saw what muslims preached and beleived in… and he could see the fakeness and the amulgum of hindu cult that he was forced to endorse and quite frankly anything that has remote association with caste system, prostitution devdasies rat and monkey worshipping stinks.
Not much time so ehre is my short response.
Mundeya, I stand by my original assertion that very few Sikhs converted by force or otehrwise. Most of the last names we share with Muslims of Punjab, like Ghumman, Janjua,Bhatti,Bajwa etc were all rajput jatts some of whom converted to Islam before Sikhsism and others remained jatts and Hindus and converted to Sikhism in the last 400/500 years. Once they became Sikhs they never converted in mass number even with force.......see that was the frustration with Jahangir and Aurangzebs. You are pretending like most of punjabi muslims were sikhs once....not true they were Hindus when they converted.
Very few Sikhs coverted to Islam once they became sikhs....and vice-versa.
I think you need to study this issue more from a social and historic point of view than entirely religious.
[This message has been edited by ChannMahi (edited August 16, 2000).]
there is no such thing as forced conversion..... <<
You want to believe this so desperately..it is not true, read history written by muslims of that period....guess you wouldn't want to do that because it will shatter your world.
Let us imagine what you are saying is true..why do people who leave Islam are punished with death sentence in muslim countries.... only goes to show that muslims are desperate to keep their followers.
You have been saying that Islam is the fastest growing religion...most of your mullahs go to Prisons to work on people when they are down and under can be easily persuaded.
This has topic has been discussed to death no need to discuss it any further.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited August 16, 2000).]
so you have failed to convince anyone here that how did these "forced conversions" take place... and how come these newly converted muslims stayed with Islam even after they had the opportunity to convert back. u guys need to convince yourself first before reading pitiful stories written in hindutva books.
You want to believe this so desperately..it is not true, read history written by muslims of that period....guess you wouldn't want to do that because it will shatter your world.
Let us imagine what you are saying is true..why do people who leave Islam are punished with death sentence in muslim countries.... only goes to show that muslims are desperate to keep their followers. <<<<
rani the generations of these converted muslims today are leaders of spreading Islam..... ever heard of Raiwind, a place close to Lahore? This small city in punjab Pakistan today heads the muslim world in Tableegh of Islam.... the jamats from this small city go all around the world.
If you want to beleive that all of the generations of sikhs and hindu who converted to Islam are muslims cos they fear that if they change to anyother religion they will be killed..... well be my guest. It will just another lie, just like the ones you have uttered about forced conversions.
The fact that these converted muslims today are leaders of tableegh (spreading islam) is enough evidence for everyone to beleive that these muslims are muslims from heart.
chanmahi, maybe you oughta convince yourself after reading the hindutva versions of history commonly available to everyone. Cos seems like you yourself are not too sure how a sikh can be converted to Islam with force.
I am glad you feel that way otherwise what other choice you have? It will be hard to live in peace with ones soul with all that guilt and namoshi, won't it? Just imagine knowing the truth... oh my God my 8th generation back was actually a sikh and Zakaria Khan threatened him to convert...and took his beautiful daughters as a war bootie....Should one be thankful that the guy survived and I was born now or should feel the anger and hurt of what happened back then? There is only one way and that is be happy about it now and justify any way possible. Life has to continueeeeeee that is the law of God. <<<<<
here is what you wrote chanmahi about the family of a converted muslim whose ancestors were sikh. i hope you have enough time to read what you wrote. where is the truth in this post? what version of hindutva history did u take this from?
Wouldnt a converted muslim know his history better than you would? Or do you think our sikh great grandfathers would lie to themselves and their kids about how they really converted to Islam? Why would they hide the rape of their own daughters and sisters and worst yet become staunch muslims themselves?
Let us imagine what you are saying is true..why do people who leave Islam are punished with death sentence in muslim countries.... only goes to show that muslims are desperate to keep their followers.
Rani, this is not quite true. A muslim is allowed to disbelieve in muslim religion if he/she wishes. It is a private matter for which they will be accounted for with Allah. When they make their apostasy public, then it becomes a public matter. Take Salman Rushdie for example; if he leads others to Hell besides himself, it is considered a serious matter, that's why idiots like him should think carefully before uttering garbage.
Anyway, upshot is, a muslim can do what he or she likes and believe what he or she likes in their own private lives.
Compare this to the state of the lowly shudra, lowlifes of your Hindutvastan, forced to eat the Brahmin excrement and considered lower than beasts in holy Hindu scriptures. You must be glad to be a sikh and not a hindu shudra. Still, as a sikh you know your place in Hindutvastan. Who was the last sikh Prime minister? Remember what Andhra said?
[quote]
Everyone knows the definition of a Brahmin is : the Brahmin is the one who always speaks the truth.
[/quote]
Mundeya, call it hinduvata or khalistani or whatever..I don't care. I am trying to be rational with you but you are on the high horse of religion and not looking back.
Beghairat people, darpok people just plain old normal people interested in living more than anything else exist in every culture and religion all the times. Survival for living beings has always been at the top of priority list much below have been ghairat,honor,God etc....these concepts are only few thousand year old....life has been older than that. Punjabis(hindus sikhs and muslims) in my opinion has been very darpok traditionaly otherwise they would have stopped the inflow of invaders from the west long time ago.
From the last few posts I am getting the impression that you are admitting that your ancestors were Sikhs? That is quite a change because you always claimed to be descendent of some great mughal khandan who ruled for 1000 years or something. Welcome brother....give me a hug....and drink this glass of lassi......we will eat kebab while sip on some ghar di kaddi daru later.....followed by makki dian rotian and saag.....:)