I think you are lying because if your great grandfather was Sikh,you would have known that Guru Nanak was not muslim. If your ancestors were Sikh and believed in one god,and believed we are are all brothers they would have no need to become muslim,as they would accept everyone for who they are,and themselves for who they are.
Yes some Sikhs converted to Islam from 1680's to 1770' or so under force. Most of them were peacefuly living in their homes and were not Khalsa who were participating in the guerilla wars against mughals and pathans. Although number of them killed for not coverting probably ourweighs the number who converted out of fear. Many of these families still have lot of respect for Guru Nanak.
The number of people converted from sikhsim, Hinduism or Islam to each other in 1947 is very low.......most people basically fled from one side to the other or got killed on the way and only one or two people here and there who got trapped in the hostile population were forced to convert. In fact many of them in India reverted back within few years.
ranjeet, you guys would do anything to blame these conversions on force. but u only ridicule your own faith by doing so. can a sikh be so weak that just cos they feared muslims of Pakistan they converted to Islam in 1947.... i dont think so. i have known many sikhs in my life and i think thats the stupidest thing to assume. do u know of any muslim who converted to sikhism in 47, afterall sikhs and hindu were on a rampage too on the other side of the border.
i think this attraction of Islam that exists in the hearts of muslims is not there for hindus, sikhs etc.... a muslim would never change his faith be it under any difficult scenerio.... if ur religion produces slippery beleivers who do a half ass job at being sikhs and hindus then its ur faiths fault and no one elses right. if ur house is made out of feathers then why blame the wind? but u can console urself by saying every hindu and sikh converted to Islam under force..... its just as true as your claim that sikhs converted to Islam during partition.
similarly amid all the claims of bravery of sikhs against mughals and whatever... chanmahies claim comes as a surprise to me. So hindus can be weak and impotent enough to convert to other religions when put in a tough spot.... sikhs would do the same, i didnt know.
force or no force.... i cant thank god enough for converting our sikh forefathers. i beleive all of the converted muslims feel that way, including our muslim forefathers who took the bold step of converting.
[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited August 15, 2000).]
RANJEET:
"I think you are lying because if your great grandfather was Sikh,you would have known that Guru Nanak was not muslim. "
Well i don't know whats true and whats not, i have no interest what so ever to look back in my history for the person who was muslim and who was not, this is what i have been told by my family members,no sir we are not tought anything about sikhism in Pakistan, what our great grand fathers were, thats history and their believes died with them, this new generation has nothing to do with them, we are muslims and are more into studying and knowng what Islam teaches us than trying to search about what our great grand fathers believed in and what guru they followed.I am a muslim and belong to a muslim family, thats all i know and i am proud of it.That one guy who converted to Islam made a very big difference for the whole khandaan and almost every family member converted.The onse who didn't,probably they went to india or somewhere but who cares,that was what they wanted to do. Many Punjabies in Pakistan have almost same stories about their ancesters but non of them are tought what their great grand fathers believed because we are not interested in knowing them.
Channmahi ji, i have a question, why did Guru Nanak prefered being burried???
Masooma
"force or no force… i cant thank god enough for converting our sikh forefathers. i beleive all of the converted muslims feel that way, including our muslim forefathers who took the bold step of converting. "
Yup, i agree mundayaa
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Masooma
i have NEVER found the answer to this. if a hindu or sikh could explain this i would appreciate that.
if a hindu/sikh was FORCED to be a Muslim be it in 1947 or 1847 or 1747 or 1647..... this is an unethical and a very unnatural thing for that person to go through. He was forced to leave his own faith hinduism/sikhism and forced to adopt this middle eastern religion which he should hate even more cos he was forced to adopt it.
The question is WHY would he/she keep on practicing this and teach this faith to their next generations which they never adopted on their own? WHY would anyone do something like that? The generations of these converted Muslims today are the leaders of Tableegh (spreading Islam among non-muslims). If their ancestors were all forced to convert they would hate muslims for converting their ancestors by force.
If anyone can answer this question, I am willing to beleive that yes forced conversions did take place on a massive scale as you claim to be. If you cant then you guys can keep on lieing to yourself and everyone here.... you will be just another liar who cant handle the truth.
mundeya not everyone understands his her religion in totality. There are people who cann't read write or put a full verbal sentence together on their own but always caught in responsibilities of day to day life to raise kids, to earn the living and not worry about politics and religious stuff...which is more of a luxury for you and me after the pait is full with sheesh kabab and 401K inflating like a watermelon on a sunny day. You give such a person a choice, you wanna live and and let your kids and wife live and come to our side or else....response will be the same unequivocally regardless of he is muslim sikh or hindu. Now compound that over 1000 years and no one to protect and you will see what a difference it makes. In a few generations things change rapidly. It is not to say all converted that way but ruling power was certainly there inclined in that direction for generations.
Tribes and countries converted to other tribes and countries(e.g. when lost in war etc.) over the centuries even prior to Islam and became staunch supporters of their new countries and tribes for times to come. It is not that hard to believe. Is it?
I know couple of guys who converted to Sikhism in Punjab in 47. One of them is baptised Sikh now and a very fanatic one at it, wanted to know from me during my last visit back home if USA is really going to help Sikhs create their country or goray are just playing games with them......poor guy. It is not that hard to lose ones identity in couple of generations.
Masoom, read the socio-cultural history of the land you will find gems not available any where else. History is a great teacher although we refuse to learn from it most of the times.
"force or no force.... i cant thank god enough for converting our sikh forefathers. i beleive all of the converted muslims feel that way, including our muslim forefathers who took the bold step of converting. "<<
I am glad you feel that way otherwise what other choice you have? It will be hard to live in peace with ones soul with all that guilt and namoshi, won't it? Just imagine knowing the truth... oh my God my 8th generation back was actually a sikh and Zakaria Khan threatened him to convert...and took his beautiful daughters as a war bootie....Should one be thankful that the guy survived and I was born now or should feel the anger and hurt of what happened back then? There is only one way and that is be happy about it now and justify any way possible. Life has to continueeeeeee that is the law of God.
Yes Ranjit,
You are absolutely right, he was neither a Hindu nor a Muslim. He went everywhere with a Hindu on his one side and a Muslim on the other. He was born to Hindu parents and whilst he made pilgrimmage to the Hindu places of worship he also made pilgrimmage to the Muslim places of worship, treating good things of both the religions with same respect and at the same time condemning the wrong practices of both the religions.
You can go back as far back as Baba Adam in the Middle Eastern religions and to Lord Rama or Lord Krishna in the indian religions, only two Apostles of God will come to mind, who never had any threat to their lives and had no enemies in their lifetime, and never had to pick up any weapons to protect themselves. These two great Apostles of God were 'Mahatama Budha' and 'Baba Guru Nanak Dev ji'
Lot of people would like to say that if he was not a hindu and not a muslim then he has to be a sikh. Sorry, but they would also be wrong in saying that. The word 'Guru' means a teacher and 'Sikh' means a pupil. All the followers of Guru Nanak Dev ji's teachings, Hindus or Muslims, from during his lifetime or from today are Sikhs. He was the Guru (teacher) we are the Sikhs (pupils).
As far as we Sikhs are concerned, Hazrat Mohammed Sahib was not the last paigamber, as muslims would like to believe and neither was Guru Nanak. The all mighty will never stop sending his paigams to his loved ones as long as the Human race exists.
Well, if He felt the need to make alterations to his Paigams which He had sent through Hazrat Musa and Hazrat Isah, then I'm sure that the world moving so fast, He must have felt the need to send new Paigams which can be appropriate to the later times. I'm totally convinced that under no circumstances God could have said that Hazrat Mohammed was the last Paigamber.
I would like to conclude this discussion with following poem of Baba Farid about true unaltered concept of God and essence of religion"
Manda Ishq we toon, mainda yar we toon
(my true love is you,my beloved is you)
Merayan soom salatan,haj zakaat azaan we toon
(My prayers,Haj, charity and call to prayers is you)
Mery zohad ibaadat,Tahat,takwa we toon
(My devotion,worship,obedience&piety is you)
Jay yar Fareed toon Qabool karey sarkar we toon sultan we toon
(Oh my beloved friend if you accept then i believe you are my sultan you are my everything)
ChanMahiji,i totally agree with you Baba guru Nanak was definately NOT Hindu or Muslim as we commonly try to define(evident from angery responses)But above all this.If we follow essence of his teachings the we will never enter in arguments like this.
Tribes and countries converted to other tribes and countries(e.g. when lost in war etc.) over the centuries even prior to Islam and became staunch supporters of their new countries and tribes for times to come. It is not that hard to believe. Is it? <<<<
Yes its very hard to beleive. The cults that forced people to convert are no where to be found. If your answer is otherwise then give me one example? Which other religion forced people to convert and has survived such tactics? Name one.
On the other hand… Islam to this day is the fastest growing religion in countries like U.S. And fyi they are not illiterate as you would want to think “just to console yourself”.
I am glad you feel that way otherwise what other choice you have? It will be hard to live in peace with ones soul with all that guilt and namoshi, won’t it? Just imagine knowing the truth… oh my God my 8th generation back was actually a sikh and Zakaria Khan threatened him to convert…and took his beautiful daughters as a war bootie…Should one be thankful that the guy survived and I was born now or should feel the anger and hurt of what happened back then? There is only one way and that is be happy about it now and justify any way possible. Life has to continueeeeeee that is the law of God. <<<<<
If that was true then this beautiful girl would be the sister of one of our grandfathers… to think that our grand father would let go of the raping of her own sister and become a muslim himself is a VERY INHUMAN ACT and whats more inhuman is the fact that he would become a staunch muslim afterwards and produce a generation of staunch muslims is even more inhumane.
Are you saying that those sikhs were this beghairat due to illiteracy that they couldnt distinguish good from bad… and followed Islam blindly?
Maybe you are being biased to your own converted clan by calling them illiterate, beghairat etc. who would convert to Islam even after their sisters were raped… this is even more inhumane than some of the stuff ranjeet has mentioned where sardars converted to Islam during partition just cos they feared muslims.
anyone else who would like to take a shot at this question? seems like all chanmahi has done is make it more worst for himself.
Bulleh Shah ji..gall ikk nukktay te mukkadi ay. je eh gall sadi samajh pai jaavay te phir ghaaTa kiss gall da!
Dear Banta Singh
I hope you did not mind me copying your massege. I agree with it word per word. Well done keep it up.
NO mundeya nothing has changed. You forgot that great grandfather about whose sisters we are talking was only 6 months old and never knew what happened before him and particularly momi did not tell....she wanted the son to live....not every mother is Dullay bhatti's mom Ladhi and not every person is a religious ghazi. it never was that way and is not so now. For every sikh man converted to Islam 10 died fighting against it. Most of the conversions in Punjab happened before Sikhs became any significant populance.....
You can keep counting few kaalay here and there converting..and keep forgetting generations and generations of muslims getting merged into mainstream America.......along with sikhs, hindus, tamils, bengalis, punjabis...etc etc. The day you will comprehend that you will pack, go and open dada ji home back in the village.
I guess even Sikh's are human, so what is the trouble of converting them to Islam.
But there is one thing that the world has to Understand, Islam is the worlds most spread religion and is still the most rapid growing religion, not bacause we offer what the Christain offer their clients to convert them to Christianity but because we give the word of truth which is Islam.
Now days we have Christain complaining about Mohammed (peace be upon him), Why are they doing this when Mohammed was mentioned in their profecies and even in the jews books. yet still they avoid this....Why is that???
What do they want???They know that Mohammed was the last prophet who was giving the word of god, who was telling us to live our lives piously...I want to know whats wrong with that...
Whats really wrong is when Christianity brings in their version of the holy trinity, HE WAS THE FATHER THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST... for god sake where is that montioned...he was a normal human being just like us, he ate like us, he bathed like us, he "pardon my expression" went to the toilet like us.
I just find this really unusual, my creator who is also the creator of heavens and the seven skys ... I mean everyone knows that God is One and only one, he has no relations.
I know I went off the topic, but these are some coments made against us, if that was wrong why was more than one BILLION people beleiving in Islam....Coming to the point whether your ancestors were muslims or not, that doesn't really matter. What matters is you yourself.
For every sikh man converted to Islam 10 died fighting against it. Most of the conversions in Punjab happened before Sikhs became any significant populance.....<<<
so the one who converted was illiterate who had no understanding of sikhism.... and those who died fighting were literate and knew all about sikhism. first of all, literacy among sikhs in the times we are talking about is like an oxymoron. so lets cut that bs. all of those sikhs were farmers... and if you know of any rocket scientists among them that im overlooking here pls share with us who.
You can keep counting few kaalay here and there converting..and keep forgetting generations and generations of muslims getting merged into mainstream America.......along with sikhs, hindus, tamils, bengalis, punjabis...etc etc. The day you will comprehend that you will pack, go and open dada ji home back in the village. <<<<
maybe its true for some muslims.... but you should visit a mosque at your earliest convenience and see the effort that is being made to spread Islam in this part of the world. You will be shocked..... they way you have depicted kalay here shows ur hindu racist heritage and nothing else. Well for us muslims they are but just americans and just as significant as whites. they probably need more love and caring than whites since they also have a long history of being molested by whites... just like shoodars have been molested by brahmans.
Mundeya not all were farmers....actually in the beginning majority was from non-farming communities....but yes majority was illiterate in a formal sense....I did not know of any univeristy related to the field of Aerospace and Engineering in Punjab that time...or may be there was and only punjabi muslims were allowed to attend it.....that might explain 25% literacy rate in West Punjab.....no...wait a minute that is because you want to teach Arabic to a person who could not learn Punjabi in 800 years.
Kala or Black is not a insulting term.
If it is the way you are saying, I am glad that it is working out for your faith....
[This message has been edited by ChannMahi (edited August 15, 2000).]
A bit of a hornet's nest strirred up I see. Well,congratulations on being the fastest growing religion in the world,it really makes the world a better place.Still,Christianity is still way out in front with about 2 billion Christians,so you still have a bit of catching up to do,so more reproducing and more converting will have to be done.Aren't you guys lucky,being able to have the freedom to practise free speech and religion in these oppressive Christian countries.Just imagine if the same was done in many muslim countries, what would be the outcome? What is it with muslims and numbers,why are you so keen to take over the world.If the whole world became muslim,you would lose all the freedom that you enjoy now.
I know Sikhs are a miniscule number compared to Islam,Christianity,Buddhism,but it is growing,there are Sikhs in every corner in the world,there is an expression "where you find a potato,you find a sikh",the seeds of Sikhi is spread throughout the world. People of other races want to know about Sikhism,there are White Sikh communities in New Mexico,Arizona, I have even seen Chinese Sikhs. There may be Sikhs who do not know much about their faith but they are very proud still of being Sikh. I know there are muslims who like to think that there should be less and less Sikh,because I believe there is something in Sikhs that is seen by others,maybe it instills fear. Sikhs have been killed,slaughtered,massacred,ethnically cleansed,have had everything done to them under the sun in last few hundred years,but you know what they are still here,stronger,bigger and more confident and they are here to stay.
NO mundeya nothing has changed. You forgot that great grandfather about whose sisters we are talking was only 6 months old and never knew what happened before him and particularly momi did not tell…she wanted the son to live…not every mother is Dullay bhatti’s mom Ladhi and not every person is a religious ghazi. it never was that way and is not so now. For every sikh man converted to Islam 10 died fighting against it. Most of the conversions in Punjab happened before Sikhs became any significant populance…<<<<
u still have failed to name one religion that spread by force like Islam as you claimed. is it because all of those cults do not exist today my friend. u went from blaiming lack of education among sikhs to the sikh brother for being a beghairat who was scared enough to convert to Islam after his sister got raped. and now you blamed sikh mothers for converting her entire generation to Islam after her own daughters rape. I can buy the fact that all sikhs who converted to Islam were only 6 years old and they were converted cos their mom got scared…BUT I aint buying that a mother would let go of the fact she would completely forget one of her daughters rape and never mention it to her newly converted sikh sons. You have indeed narrowed the criteria of these conversions… i know its a tough spot to be in, but these are the questions you should ask yourself before using the words of “forced conversions” cos there is NO SUCH THING.
and once again… we muslims feel proud of the conversions that take place among shoodars of india and kalays of US. They are all humans and just as important as anyother… I hope you can let go of the brahman racist keera (bug) in you and see that one of these days.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
ranjeet, at one point you blaimed muslims for being obsessed with numbers and at others you pointed out your own faiths growing numbers with pride and gave us the potato example… commonly used among farmers of punjab. now you want to shed some light on how did these forced conversions take place… and why did the converted sikhs continue to practice their new faith?
here is a list of arguments put forward by you in defense to your claims of forced conversions.
- not all sikhs were literate. therefore those who were jahil and ignorant converted to Islam.
-> chanmahi admitted in his post that they were all illiterate or atleast the majority of them... so this reason goes out of the window.
- a sikh daughter is kidnapped and the brother gets too scared. so he converts.
-> this was even more stupid than the first argument... cos i dont care what religion you follow there is no human in the world who would feel proud of the rape of her sister and convert to Islam and become a staunch muslim eversince.
- sikhs converted cos they were all 6 months old and their mother got scared after her 20 year old daughter was raped. and whats more.... she never mentions it again to her other sons, instead preaches them to be staunch muslims.
-> for once the number of families who converted this way cant be more than a couple. but neverthless still a far cry from reality.
Here is a quick lesson in what do you need to do to become a muslim.
- Kalima (one sentence to read privately)
- Namaz (read privately or in public)
- Zakat (charity given privately)
- Roza (fasting also done privately)
- Hajj (pilgrimage to makka, dependent on whether a muslim can afford to make this pilgrimage or not)
Now can someone explain if there is such a thing as a "forced conversion" how can a muslim be forced to follow these five principles of Islam? Lets take the example of this mother whose daughter has been raped..... agreed she will read Kalima for one day to save her life. Now how would she get the motivation to pray namaaz in her home without any force? how would she be forced to read Quran? Were muslims watching over her all day and all night long? No matter how much you would think thats the case its not humanly possible to do a thing like that.
YOU do not become a muslim unless you heart is filled with light of Islam. No one can force Islam on you..... no one can force another human being to pray namaaz or read Quran. For one day maybe yes.... but forever? and whats more unbeleivable is to force Islam on to its coming generations as well.
Mundyaa,
I wanted to prove a point that Islam is not the only religion that is growing,there are other religions too that are growing.But muslims are more obsessed with numbers.
Of course forced conversions took place,you only have to look at the chronicles of muslim writers of how many people they killed,how many people they converted,in fact they bragged and boasted about it.
Now regarding recent conversions since 47,the majority of Sikhs did leave Pakistan, the very few that did remain,some of them did become muslim as they had no choice,they chose to stay with their land,they remain muslim today because they could not revert back to Sikhism as there would be bloodshed if they did. The miniscule amount of Sikhs that are left do not even have control of even the gurudwaras. From what I understand the majority of the gurudwaras in Pakistan remained closed and are in decay.