It's not part of the Ihram. I remember seeing a documentary where the Saudi security force says they need to be able to see everyone's faces. There are cameras everywhere. So that the incident of a terrorist takeover of the Kabah doesn't happen so easily again.
Sorry, my friend. Hiding a mask over your face helps hide your identity. It helps you get away with crimes. This is common sense. And even in the face of hadith and Quranic ayahs, you STILL SUPPORT this?
It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: A man stood up and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, what clothes do you command us to wear in ihraam?” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not wear shirts, pants or any kind of headgear… and women in ihraam should not wear niqaab or gloves.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1741. **Ibn Qudaamah said: *Ibn al-Mundhir said: The fact that wearing the burqa’ (face veil – during ihraam) is makrooh is narrated from Sa’d, Ibn ‘Umar, Ibn ‘Abbaas and ‘Aa’ishah. We do not know of anyone who held a different view. Al-Bukhaari and others narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “A woman should not wear niqaab or gloves.” But if she needs to cover her face because men are passing close by her, then she should lower part of her garment from the top of her head over her face. This was narrated from ‘Uthmaan and ‘Aa’ishah, and this was the view of ‘Ata’, Maalik, al-Thawri, al-Shaafa’i, Ishaaq and Muhammad ibn al-Hasan, and we do not know of any opposing view. This is because of the report narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) who said: “The riders used to pass by us when we were in ihraam with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). When they drew near, one of us would lower her jilbaab from her head over her face, and when they had passed by we would uncover our faces.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 1833 and by al-Athram. *Al-Mughni, 3/154. The hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in *Risaalat Jilbaab al-Mra’ah. *
It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: A man stood up and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, what clothes do you command us to wear in ihraam?” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not wear shirts, pants or any kind of headgear… and women in ihraam should not wear niqaab or gloves.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1741. **Ibn Qudaamah said: *Ibn al-Mundhir said: The fact that wearing the burqa’ (face veil – during ihraam) is makrooh is narrated from Sa’d, Ibn ‘Umar, Ibn ‘Abbaas and ‘Aa’ishah. We do not know of anyone who held a different view. Al-Bukhaari and others narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “A woman should not wear niqaab or gloves.” But if she needs to cover her face because men are passing close by her, then she should lower part of her garment from the top of her head over her face. This was narrated from ‘Uthmaan and ‘Aa’ishah, and this was the view of ‘Ata’, Maalik, al-Thawri, al-Shaafa’i, Ishaaq and Muhammad ibn al-Hasan, and we do not know of any opposing view. This is because of the report narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) who said: “The riders used to pass by us when we were in ihraam with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). When they drew near, one of us would lower her jilbaab from her head over her face, and when they had passed by we would uncover our faces.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 1833 and by al-Athram. *Al-Mughni, 3/154. The hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in *Risaalat Jilbaab al-Mra’ah. *
Right and the issue I have with these hadith's are that they contradict the other hadith where Muhammad SAW says to not cover the face in general for women, and they contradict that ayat I'm referring to that says women should be dressed in a way that they can be recognized. You can recognize someone in a hijab, I'll concede, but not in a niqaab.
It's not part of the Ihram. I remember seeing a documentary where the Saudi security force says they need to be able to see everyone's faces. There are cameras everywhere. So that the incident of a terrorist takeover of the Kabah doesn't happen so easily again.
Sorry, my friend. Hiding a mask over your face helps hide your identity. It helps you get away with crimes. This is common sense. And even in the face of hadith and Quranic ayahs, you STILL SUPPORT this?
Absurd.
Women are not prevented from wearing niqab when they visit the Kaaba. The idea of them being prevented from wearing it within an entire city such as Makkah or Madinah is absurd. Whatever information you've gotten from wherever is inaccurate. Moreover, despite the niqab not being permitted while you are in Ihram, Saudi women often get around this by using something else to cover their faces. From what I recall, some Bedouin women wear masks. Other women will use a cloth hanging from the top of their heads.
Women are not prevented from wearing niqab when they visit the Kaaba. The idea of them being prevented from wearing it within an entire city such as Makkah or Madinah is absurd. Whatever information you've gotten from wherever is inaccurate. Moreover, despite the niqab not being permitted while you are in Ihram, Saudi women often get around this by using something else to cover their faces. From what I recall, some Bedouin women wear masks. Other women will use a cloth hanging from the top of their heads.
The masks that Bedouin women wore was purely cultural and was most likely born out the need to protect themselves from the harsh climates and winds as they traipsed across the desert in their nomadic caravans. I have a book called "Mother Without A Mask" which is an autobiography of sorts written by Patricia Holton, an American journalist married to a British newspaper magnate Claud Morris who founded a think tank/consultancy aimed at bridging the gap between the West and and the Middle East. They were intimate with Sheik Zayed and other prominent Sheik families of the newly formed UAE. Over a 20+ year period she documents the lives of this family, from pre oil money simple Bedouin style living in sleepy Al Ain to their meteoric rise to modern life in Abu Dhabi. One of the key points is always the mask and its reiterated (by the Bedouins themselves) is that it is cultural, indigenous of the area, and not required by Islam. There is one particular passage where the women of the family and tribe actually laugh about it because they can't answer or figure out why they wear the mask.
I may not totally agree with pcg's stance on completely banning niqab and telling an American citizen what they can and can't wear, but I totally agree with her in that I find them strange, out of place, unnecessary and a security risk. I don't find any 100% Islamic reason for women to insist on doning it in this day and age, but to each their own.
It's not part of the Ihram. I remember seeing a documentary where the Saudi security force says they need to be able to see everyone's faces. There are cameras everywhere. So that the incident of a terrorist takeover of the Kabah doesn't happen so easily again.
Sorry, my friend. Hiding a mask over your face helps hide your identity. It helps you get away with crimes. This is common sense. And even in the face of hadith and Quranic ayahs, you STILL SUPPORT this?
Absurd.
Saudi's don't enforce ihram, its upto one's choice (though during ihram ladies are not required to use veil) but that is not part of Saudi police job. lets keep them separate
Wait, I don't understand. Why don't your principles apply to a western woman who doesn't want to wear the abaya in Saudia Arabia and shouldn't be punished with jail or beheadings if she doesn't?
Why can't a woman in Pakistan then wear shorts or a skirt?
You know, they used to. They used to wear far more in Afghanistan even. Kabul was the place to be once upon a time.
So it's not like these countries haven't seen anything short of an abaya. There used to be a fashion of Shalwaar Kameez with the kameez cuts going above the hips.
If someone wants to wear that now or deep neck kameez or backless kameez w/dori's etc, or choli's/sari's that show a midriff in Pakistan, they can surely do that right? And you girls wouldn't go running around opening threads saying Hai Hai every time Meera wears something revealing?
You are thinking very logically. KSA constitution is not based on freedom of speech. Voice against government always shut by their govt. That piece of land is not in West. Their culture is not open. They don't allow naturalization and nationality to any non-Saudi.
70s was the age when a Pakistani model wear a miniskirt. I will search an image and post later if I find. Kabul was liberal in 70s.
Grils(Some) are wearing those onchay chalk wali kameez, back doori kameez. It might be your exposure that you did not find them but yes their are some girls who prefer to wear that.
PCG, what does it matter if it might not be a requirement in Islam? The niqaab isn't exactly my favourite thing but surely those women should have the freedom to choose how they dress? For security reasons the face needs to be seen at times but apart from that I can't see any good reason why it shouldn't be worn..
And 'liberal' Muslim of course is subjective.. If people shouldn't comment about the way you or I dress why should we comment on how others do? You aren't keen on hijab but mentioned westernised desis not wanting to wear shalwar khameez or embracing their culture as well.. In a free society it shouldn't really matter how others choose to live their lives as long as they aren't hurting others..
^ PCG right…the covering of face, hands and feet are NOT required in Islam…if someone is doing that, she is going above and beyond the required dress code as set out in Islam. it may be because she feels more secure or comfortable covering herself head to toe. it’s matter of taqwa.
as far as hair to be covered is concerned, it’s mandatory for a woman to cover her hair and also put another garb over their bosom. women are supposed to wear lose-fitting clothes in order to conceal the contour of their bodies.
That's great and all KKF but the Quran designated the bosom, not head, as the mandatory body part to be covered. That an "ornaments" and you can interpret that as you will. Unless you see an ayat that states "hair" or "head" your argument is invalid.
Now do you guys see where the burqa comes from? Jewish women are covering their faces and wearing these clothes - this is a clear sign that this is not something that Islam introduced. We got it from our early Muslims who were converted from Judaism. You want to practice Judaism go for it. I am practicing Islam.
That's great and all KKF but the Quran designated the bosom, not head, as the mandatory body part to be covered. That an "ornaments" and you can interpret that as you will. Unless you see an ayat that states "hair" or "head" your argument is invalid.
Now do you guys see where the burqa comes from? Jewish women are covering their faces and wearing these clothes - this is a clear sign that this is not something that Islam introduced. We got it from our early Muslims who were converted from Judaism. You want to practice Judaism go for it. I am practicing Islam.
if mentioned a Hadees in one of your posts, i believe, where you said that Prophet [saws] said a woman's entire body is her satar [that needs to be covered] except [by pointing out] her face, hand and feet...that mean's head and hair is included in a woman's satar...just like a man's satar is from under the navel up to just above the knee. this part of men must be covered at all times [except in front of his spouse of course]. that's the bare minimum!
That's great and all KKF but the Quran designated the bosom, not head, as the mandatory body part to be covered. That an "ornaments" and you can interpret that as you will. Unless you see an ayat that states "hair" or "head" your argument is invalid.
Now do you guys see where the burqa comes from? Jewish women are covering their faces and wearing these clothes - this is a clear sign that this is not something that Islam introduced. We got it from our early Muslims who were converted from Judaism. You want to practice Judaism go for it. I am practicing Islam.
..not to disrupt the flow of discussion, but you do know that Islam takes into account some Judaic laws, which then became a part of Islam. Right? For Instance, the punishment for Apostasy is/was a part of the Shariah that was given to Musa (a.s.), and it was not abolished even after revelation of Quran and thus became a part of Islamic Law as well.
Just saying, it helps to know or to ask when unsure.
As for the topic itself, banning an article of clothing that some translate to be a part of Islam would be hypocritical. Irony is well-blended into the argument for the ban to the point that it almost makes a complete circle around itself.
