Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Here is a well written piece that also makes valid arguments against wearing hijab in western countries at least. These are difficult topics in general given lack of explicit guidelines one way or another. We are also dealing with Arabic language that seems like Swiss cheese of languages.
So why not try a new modern perspective?
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Hijabs are one thing - again, this is a thread about Niqab.
I don’t think people are as scared of hijabs, generally are more accepted. It’s the niqab that freaks people out.
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Being married to a woman who wears the niqab and accompanying her for a significant portion of the time when she is wearing it, it’s nowhere near as bad as your posts make it out to be. Particularly in places where women have already been seeing wearing it for some time now though it may be a different story in places where people see it for the first time. In past couple of weeks, we’ve been to a number of places and here nobody really cares. Sure, there might be the odd racist or woman who’ll try to lecture me (and possibly her) on women’s rights after seeing her, but those are quite rare from my experience 
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
I get it but your post which I quoted earlier was about hijab not niqab.
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Haha reminds me of my school days when I worked at a drugstore, this bearded and niqabi couple would come buy birth control.
Now, it wouldn’t be this awkward if the guy bought it at the counter, but no I had to call a manager (female) so the wife could buy it from her. I guess that they knew that we had a female manager at night.
Just think how backward and incompatible she would have thought of us muslims when she actually had to close out the cash registers and safe right around closing.
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
What is the evidence that Niqabis have got away with a crime???
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Where is everyone?
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
I clearly dont have time to go through this long thread but from the first post i can clearly say I’m very happy with the OP. Now who cares wut the heck is she trying to say but just the title brought me a lot of pleasure. This poster PyariCgudia can totally be my Sarah Palin on GS!! Now where is love in the air emoticon?
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Why are you a Sir? Did the queen knight you?
And by queen I don’t mean Queen Latifah.
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
So just because a woman was shy about purchasing birth control from a guy makes the situation awkward?
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Why can’t her husband purchase it for her from me? Women can even show their body to a doctor, so that is my beef with such laqeer kay faqeer.
I know that you like to be the devil’s advocate, but think of the inconvenience that it caused the manager on a night shift. I think that this intolerant behavior that “islamists” whatever you call them that show it in the west will doom us all muslims when the time comes to shove as **** hits the fan.
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Yusuf Ali): O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Seems some poster here thinks that there is confusion in the ayah on recognition .. that is, either they are recognized as ‘Muslim’ or recognized as ‘Person’
But from the ayah (if read unbiased) and ‘place plus year the ayah is revealed’ (that is around 5 Hijri in Madina), there is no confusion that recognition means recognition as ‘Person’ and not as ‘Muslim’.
There are many reason to believe that Ayah means ‘person’ and not ‘Muslim women’.
Actually, there are no reason to believe that when word recognized is used in ayah, it is about recognizing them as Muslim but there are number of reasons to believe that in ayah word recognized is used to get recognized as person (if the person is Sister X or Sister Y).
1: Allah has created ‘only’ face in human that one can look at and recognize the person. There is no part of body or any ways that a person can look at and recognize someone with certainty.
2: Ayah was revealed in Madina around 5 H. In Madina, at the time there were Muslims and Jews. Actually, surah was revealed after gazwa-e-Khandaq (as name suggests).
Actually, at the time of this Surah, most Jews of Madina were sent to exile or got exterminated.
That means, most of the people in Madina at the time Surah Ahzab was revealed were Muslims (though even if there were number of Jews and others would have been living in Madina, still it would have made no difference to those who are not biased due to their pre-conceived beliefs … because communities had their areas).
Hence, it is ridiculous to say that there was any reason for a women to wear Hijab or Niqab, so that she can be recognized as Muslim, as all around were Muslims.
[Note: Even if Jews and other women would have been in Madina, they were living separately, so no way to say that a particular dress code is needed to get recognized].
3: Wearing Niqab is old Arab custom that was present throughout, amongst Kafir women, as well as women of Jews and Christians.
Wearing Niqab was necessity for prostitutes, women of bad characters and women belonging to rich and influential clans, so that their identity is not revealed.
In other words, women were using Niqab to hide their identity, or not to get recognized, and that practice was there all over Arab world of the time.
4: Ayah tells that the ayah came to answer something … to answer a question that must have got asked. That is, women experiencing molestation, abuses and teasing in market places … and they must have asked for remedy … and that is why in Ayah, it is mentioned that after fulfilling the remedy prescribed, ‘women would get recognized and would not get molested’
So, keeping this in mind that at the time, almost all of Madina was Muslim, question arises that 'how can them getting recognized would stop others molesting them?
Obviously, it could not be that people who molest would stop molesting them if they would think the women are Muslim.
Actually, molesting is unislamic anyhow, so those molesting would molest as long as they can get away (they molesting Muslim women would not matter to them). In environment of Madina, where most people knew each other, they can get away only if identity of the women they are molesting is unknown (women are in Niqab) and they have reason to molest or tease a woman that they can use to save themselves if they get caught or contested:
a: Claim that women they molested, they thought was prostitute.
b: Claim that women they molested, they thought were their wife or known to them.
Now, following old arabic customs, some women were wearing Niqab and were getting molested, hence they must have asked Prophet (SAW) for remedy … and remedy came. That is:
Put your garment over your head and cover your bosom, as that would be enough … so that they can get recognized (their face is there for all to see and recognize), and thus not get molested.
Actually, there is no other explanation that can come out of this ayah knowing that ayah was revealed in Madina around 5 H, and that most of the population in Madina at the time were Muslim … plus Muslim were ruling Madina at the time and that even at that time, Muslims community were living together in Madina away from non-Muslims of Madina.
5: Fact is that, there is no monopoly of any religion or region on Niqab. Use of Niqab is and was common all over Arabic world, Indian as well as China … and practice was there amongst all religion. Women are using Niqab to hide their identity, due to various reasons, that is either they were prostitutes, women of bad characters, or belonging to elite class of society who want to go out without them getting recognized, hence Niqab as identity of being Muslim is misleading belief anyhow, and even having such though only tells the misguided state of mind of the thinker. … Such thinking is same as someone saying that having beard means the person is Muslim, but that is not true, as people of all religion or region keep beard, regardless of they are Muslim or not Muslim.
Anyhow, people who wanted to keep Arab culture, where influential women, prostitutes and women with bad character wearing Niqab alive, kept twisting the meaning of the ayah.
So knowing the crooked mind of Muslims to follow and their love of changing meaning of ayah, to safeguard the true meaning of this ayah Allah has forbidden Niqab in Hajj, that is coming down the ages, unaltered as Quran.
6: Hence, in Hajj it is forbidden for Muslim women to wear Niqab, rather it is forbidden that their face get touched with cloths, and that is obvious, because they can get recognized.
Just imagine, if women were wearing niqab in Hajj, people with sick mind would be molesting (or touching) women during Hajj too, and if caught would have claimed that they did not recognized the women due to niqab and thought that the women was their wife or relative
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Are you suggesting that the surah asks for the woman to uncover her face in order to be recognized as so-and-so’s wife/daughter/sister/mother etc simply so that those with an intention to “molest” would not have an excuse?
You think it’s obvious that those wanting to molest would not care if the women are muslim…then why would they care if the face was visible or not? Those wishing to carry out a disgusting act would find a way and would be likely to have six other excuses lined up.
Furthermore…why do you believe that there could not have been instruction on how to dress to be recognized as Muslim? Why could this not have been an opportunity for female muslim attire to be defined? Just because there was a majority of muslim population? That makes even less sense.
Here’s some more on the context of the entire surah:
33. Surah Al Ahzab (The Clans) - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur’an - The Meaning of the Qur’an
Here’s another explanation:
Section 8: The Knowledge of the Hour of Judgment | An Enlightening Commentary into the Light of the Holy Qur’an vol. 14 | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
I get where you are coming from but tbh, they are the customers and they had the right to ask to be served in a specific way. If it was inconvenient for the female manager to stop what she was doing then she could have declined or she could have said that she would be available at another time. (You mention closing time, this could just as well have happened when there were no female service people on duty; they could be gone for break or lunch etc and the couple would have been out of luck.)
I know that it took a long time for me to be comfortable with purchasing feminine products from a male sales clerk…more so if the guy was desi. Dunno why… maybe I’m a private person when it comes to things like that. In fact, there was a time when my husband was going to pick up some stuff from the drug store and a family member asked me to ask him to pick up something for her. I had such a tough time asking him because after being married for well over a decade, I had never even asked him to do this for me!! (It turned into quite an uncomfortable joke cuz she started making fun of us and we had to shut our mouths and take it cuz she’s older than us.)
So I don’t think it has to do with “Islamists” but more so with your own personal level of comfort. And I certainly don’t think it’s limited to any particular religious or ethnic group.
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Sister! You are right. That is what I am suggesting. Actually, I am suggesting more reason that if they have uncovered face, those who would like to molest a women, would not.
Reason is that, if face is obvious (can be seen) than molester would have no excuse to molest, make comments or tease a women … on pretext that since identity is unknown and face covered, than molestation happened due to mistaken identity (molester thought … women was his wife or whatever).
Yes, I think that those who would like to tease, make juicy comments, start unsolicited conversation, touch the women or molest her, would not care if the women is Muslim or not Muslim.
Anyhow, if molestation happens and women took action and molester got caught ‘or’ molester got caught due to interference of people around the incident, then:
Molester would have excuse if face of women is covered.
‘but’
Molester would have no excuse if face of women is not covered.
For instance, a man could not say that ‘the women I was teasing, I thought she was my wife’ … because if face is not covered than people would not believe or buy that excuse and they would give that person beating or would take that person to police … but if women face is covered than the molester can easily say that … ‘I am sorry, I thought that women was my wife and I did not meant to molest or harm her knowing that she is not related to me … thus my action is due to mistaken identity’.
This argument can work, especially if the molester is caught first time … or people around him do not know that the molester has habit to molest.
I could not think of any excuse that molester can put forward if face of the women he molested is uncovered … as then molester would have no excuse of mistaken identity, neither people around the incidence would buy that molester molested without recognizing the woman (as his wife or whoever).
Here ‘recognition’ is of two type.
Type one: Women is recognized as someone molester know (his wife or whoever molester want her to be known).
Type two: Women is recognized that she has no relation with molester (she is not his wife or whoever molester would like her to be).
Both recognition, that is ‘relation with women’ or ‘no relation with women’ can only happen if women face is uncovered (she is not wearing niqab).
So … in both cases … a molester recognizes the woman … as ‘his wife or someone he knows’ … or as ‘not his wife or not known person’ … and that would stop molester from any excuse of molesting … because molester would know that he would not be able to defend himself if he would get caught molesting woman he do not know.
Well, Islam has given a concept of ‘Aurah’ for male and female (part of body that should be covered), that is all.
As for given instruction on how to dress to get recognized as Muslim, that was not given in Islam because there could be no monopoly on how to dress, by any religion or community. Since everyone can dress whatever way they like, dressing instruction would be more problematic than not.
Example: Some misguided people think that Niqab is part of Islam for Muslim women … so where that believes get entertained, unwanted elements take up Niqab to hide their identity and try to portray themselves as Muslim women … Maulana Burqa (Aziz) is one example, though Pakistan army has captured many Talibans using face covering Burqa to escape or spread terrorism.
We have to understand that Niqab has never ever got recognized as exclusive dress of Muslim women … because there is no monopoly in dressing. Actually, most prostitutes and women with bad characters in Pakistan, India, as well as middle east, wear face covering Burqa to move around, especially if they are famous or know … as such burqa hides their characterless identity that can attract unwanted people around them. Many film actresses, trying to hide their identity in public, do the same.
Unfortunately, where face covering Burqa is tolerated, many criminal elements (and terrorists) also use such Burqa to hide their identity and commit crimes (robbery, escape after robbery, petty crimes, terrorism, theft, etc) under the guise of Burqa.
I have read Modudi commentary of this surah long time ago … and I read relevant part of the next site you mentioned. Maududi commentary confirms what I wrote earlier that surah was revealed in 5 Hijri … and that was after Gazwa-e-Khandaq.
Second site tells about the ayah and gave many interpretations and understood meaning about the ayah. Well, earlier in my last post, I did write that … many later Muslims who did not wanted to leave their pre-Islamic custom of veil (face covering burqa) tried to twist the meaning … but nevertheless, meaning is obvious … that is, ‘put scarf over oneself so that one is recognized and not get molested’.
I believe that only way to stop molester molesting, is getting recognized (keep face open) so that anyone daring to molest would know that he could get into trouble and there would be no way out of that trouble.
And yea … remember that a women cannot do Hajj in Niqab. If Niqab was part of Islamic code than there was no reason a Muslim women had to abandon Niqab while performing Hajj.
I think, that in itself is clear indication and proof that Niqab is nothing to do with Islam … rather, not wearing Niqab during Hajj confirms that Allah do not want Muslim women to wear Niqab.
Allah has created and given face to human so that human can recognize each other. To hide that face in niqab mean insulting the purpose of creating face by Allah … as primary purpose of face creation by Allah is recognition (so that people recognize each other). Looks and beauty is secondary purpose of face creation.
And yea, if what I have written above, that Allah wants Muslims (mea or women) to not cover their face so that they can recognize each other, than obviously those who wear Niqab considering that as command of Allah, are disobeying Allah, for which they would be answerable.
On the other hand, if purpose of covering face is environmental need (saving face from extreme cold or heat) or something else that is nothing to do with Islam … for instance, personal like, dislike or preferences … than that is fine.
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
And no one has any excuse STILL for why there is a hadith where Rasululah (SAW) recommends to keep the face and hands and feet uncovered.
If niqabs were mandatory, why would he not inform the woman who sought advice that this is so?
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
This is really funny 
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Respectfully Saleem saheb, while I am willing to concede that the concept you are trying to convey may be somewhat relevant, I don’t agree with your position when it comes to the sole reason behind the verse that we are discussing.
(And just as an aside…the reason why I posted the link to the Maududi commentary is to illustrate that there was no shortage of non-Muslims in the area and the need to be “recognized” as Muslims remained. But that is a very small point and not necessary to discuss since I don’t agree with your stance on the much larger aspects of the argument.)
(Aside #2 - If we are to use ihram as the “dress code” for Muslims then why do we not see men and women dressed in the ihram all the time? Why just at the time of haj? And if we apply your “molestation deterrent” theory then it could be said that women are told to leave their faces uncovered at the time of haj because it is understood that all those in attendance would be devout and pious momins and they would never consider “molesting” anyone so no need to protect. But this would be conjecture…wouldn’t it?)
PCG…I don’t think that anyone has said that niqabs are mandatory. The position of most in the thread is that mandatory or not, there is not enough evidence/reason to support a ban.
Your position consistently has been two-fold:
I don’t see how either of these hold water…
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Son, when anybody sees me they automatically respect me. Ofcourse my legacy is HUGGEEE! Now when i’m online people cant see me so they must call me Sir. And heck I deserve it too 
Re: Should the Niqab be banned?
Yes, true, it is about tradition but this guy would wear a topi and his wife was in a burqa.
Frankly, if you can have sex with your spouse then buying what haya / sharam to buy a feminine product?
To me, it is like bikini aka waterproof underwear is perfectly ok on a beach but then cleavage is bad. Like WTF? 